Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[khalltusk]

Pristine servers still wont satisfy legacy players who just want vanilla servers b/c of playstyle. Leveling is still too fast and it is way to easy earn things. In the end I will still be sitting in a garrison.

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hiya D3athsting may I ask for a source for that Peanut Butter quote please. I would like to read it in it's entirety.

Thats why I said Pristine/legacy, as an option. Give players the choice I say.

[Struggle]

Pristine is a bad idea simply because no one wants it.

Pro-Legacy wants to play Vanilla, TBC, Wrath, etc. Not Warlords or Legion on hard mode.

Anti-Legacy wants to play Warlords or Legion as is.

Not to mention when they brought it up on the WoW forums everyone from both sides said it's an awful idea. It would be a complete waste of time and resources. Might as well do nothing at all.

[Zarriya]

Thats why I said Pristine/legacy, as an option. Give players the choice I say.

yep I agree

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Pristine is a bad idea simply because no one wants it.

Pro-Legacy wants to play Vanilla, TBC, Wrath, etc. Not Warlords or Legion on hard mode.

Anti-Legacy wants to play Warlords or Legion as is.

Not to mention when they brought it up on the WoW forums everyone from both sides said it's an awful idea. It would be a complete waste of time and resources. Might as well do nothing at all.

And I agree with this as well.

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--SNIP--

Don't post links to private servers

Thank you very much - WoW that is crazy!

[Molis]

I think balance was very good back in 2004-2007. Each class was generally a stalemate to others, but each had a huge strength against another, yet also a huge weakness against a different class. When I was playing it reminded me of the original MegaMan, in regards to strengths and weaknesses.

Stalemates went down to skill and playstyles.

With the UI, every player will be at the same disadvantage, so it's fair. No player will be required to do more than anyone else.

Are you talking about PvP?

Because PvE had no balance what so ever.

Warrior - You are a tank. Nothing else
Paladin - You are a healer. Nothing else
Druid - Healer
Shaman - Healer
Warlock - Eh you can come for Garr
Rogues Mages Hunters - If there are more than 20 of you....get in line.

[Jeniwyn]

Warrior - You are a tank. Nothing else

Not quite.

Warriors were very good dps. Sure you had to tank every now and then regardless because of variable number and f tanks needed. But a dps warrior who tanked like 1% of the time wasn't rare and isn't on private servers.

And since when is not having every spec viable really a balance problem?

[Deleted]

Yeah. You have no credibility after saying this.

Zero.

As a DPS warrior raider in Vanilla, I agree 100%.

[MasterHamster]

News flash for you, forcing people to be social does not make them social. Before any of these systems came in people were just as anti social as before. All we get with these systems is the ability to see these anti social people doing this content now as its just a click of a button. Same thing with bad players we're more exposed to them now than ever.

Yes, it does. It takes them out of their comfort zone because without social interactions you wouldn't progress nearly as successfully. So for all intents and purposes, yes, "forcing" people to be social in MMOs by designing a game to necessitate communication, causes them to be more social. Sociability is your key to bonding, close-knitted groups, and together with a necessity to communicate means success in harder content. I.e rewards. Rewards that people strive for.

Apply this to real life. Perhaps a university course. Take away all group-projects, all introductory greetings. All that "uncomfortable unnecessary mundane shit"
Make the course so simple no one feels the need or urge to form study groups. And then ask after finals if overall, people have been less keen to take the chances that might lead to new friendships.

Sure the goal is for everyone to pass the course right? But it's still a positive thing to "force" the social interaction somehow. Taking people who'd otherwise sit alone in a corner feel incentives to talk to people, because they "have" to. At least if they want a decent grade. Or in WoW, gear, titles, mounts, recognition and a secure place in a competent, fun guild. But all that went away with convenience and the design of everything-needs-to-be-accessible-right-now

That's the state of WoWs social incentive right now. Stay quiet because you don't need anyone else. Why talk when you're just after that guaranteed role-satchel by the end. Rush, you're not going to wipe anyway. No strategy needed. AoE. If people aren't overgearing it, just leave and re-queue. You won't see them again anyway. Only time you are truly likely to interact with this bunch of anonymous nobodies is when someone forgot an obvious wipe mechanic and you had to spend 30 seconds ressurecting. There's a reason there's a wide-spread idea that WoW has lost it's sense of community.

hi

k bye thx 4 group

When I first played I mainly played with my friends, found a few friends in the game via guilds or the odd dungeon. I've made friends the same way I always do. I talk to people, blizzard never removed the ability to talk. Just we're exposed to more people who probably don't care about interacting with you or I.

Nope, they didn't remove the ability to talk. They just inadvertently through many subtle changes made people have no real reason to do it. Perhaps think of the times when getting into a raid group was a lil feat in itself, so you cherished the chance to clear that raid. You talked partly to remain. You stayed despite wipes because you couldn't just bring up a window and apply for another group. You talked strategy and made a few jokes and maybe ended up with a new long-term friend.

Comfort zones and too much convenience are bad for success and WoW is now a cesspool of it.

[Eliseus]

So you want to go back to the order with people starting new threads on this topic over and over?

The topic is in a bit of a hiatus now since the ball is in Blizzards court ever since the meeting with nost and Kern was announced.

Exactly. He is just trying to start trouble. Maybe it's to try and get more people to go to his stream. Must be jealous of the other streamers.

[Relapses]

Not quite.

Warriors were very good dps. Sure you had to tank every now and then regardless because of variable number and f tanks needed. But a dps warrior who tanked like 1% of the time wasn't rare and isn't on private servers.

And since when is not having every spec viable really a balance problem?

DPS Warriors in TBC also had the best threat drop in the game: Death.

[shoc]

Here's my idea for how I would design a playable mode to cater to Nostralius players:

The Problem: Everyone has their own definition of the 'best' time of World of Warcraft, be it Vanilla, TBC or WOTLK. However, I think most people unanimously agree that 'Nostalgic' WoW doesn't really exist beyond Cataclysm.

The Solution: Take advantage of the wealth of old-world content to create a unique game-within-a-game in World of Warcraft, that attempts to emulate the same conditions that made the Nostralius Private Server a positive experience. This is not an attempt to create a Vanilla server, rather, an entirely new gameplay option for a different target market segment of players.

The Target Market Segment: WoW players who remember Vanilla, TBC and WOTLK content fondly, but do not want to pay a subscription to play the 'Full' WoW.

I introduce... World of Warcraft: Beginnings.

Lore: The world of Azeroth is filled with mighty adventurers, who always answer the call of battle and unquestioningly defend their world against any foe. They have defeated ancient evils and brutal tyrants, and have even risen to the top of the archetypes that they represent. These mysterious heroes have become household names, and equal in strength to the Warcraft Universes greatest figureheads, such as Thrall, Jaina and Arthas. However, these adventurers once came from humble beginnings, and the stories of these nascent heroes are remembered fondly by those who experienced them. Introducing World of Warcraft: Beginnings, a unique World of Warcraft experience that explores the content of expansions past.

Free to Play Forever with the purchase of the World of Warcraft Battle Chest.

Play to Level 80 for Free, with experience gains similar to those back in the day.

New Dungeon and Raid Difficulty: Legacy. All Dungeons and Raids are tuned to be appropriate for a level 80 endgame. Vanilla, TBC and pre-ICC dungeons and raids tuned to ICC levels, dropping loot with ICC itemization. Essentially, way too much relevant content.

No-hands held: Matchmaking Systems (LFD/LFR) completely disabled. Players must queue for PvP from an NPC located in the Battlegrounds respective entrance Areas. Significantly slower leveling rate. Heirlooms unavailable.

Full access to previously locked features: Unlike the Starter Edition, Beginnings does not restrict Whispers, Party/Raid formation, guild creation, AH/mailbox use, gold cap, etc.

Contemporary Class Design and Player Models: Take advantage of modern Models for both players and enemies.

Players above level 80 can still participate in content with Beginning Players, by visiting an NPC they can toggle their level to 80, and all of their stats and equipment will be removed, and can only wear 'Legacy' quality gear from Legacy difficulty Dungeons and Raids. Players who become unsubscribed are automatically leveled down to 80 and their gear is placed in their bags, and their characters can still fully enjoy WoW: Beginnings.

[Eliseus]

I only stop by periodically to see how many times the phrase "your opinion is not a fact" is referenced.

For those interested, this week alone we're already up to 29,945 uses!

Well when someone references their opinion as a fact, isn't it valid to not only ask for a source, but worth dismissing their opinion? Or is it better to just let some ignorant thought seep through for the random spectator that might be swayed by such nonsense. Believe it or not, in all arguments there are people that sit in the middle. This thread alone has had people who posted they are in the middle and since "X" thing decided to join "Y" side.

The arguments are here for a reason. A movement isn't suppose to be just singular, though it can start with just one person saying enough is enough. We argue because we are passionate about the subject, on both sides. We try, though futile most of the time, to change the minds of individuals, but realistically, it is for the person who doesn't know where they stand that we argue. The people that read this thread and don't care to respond.

There also is of course people to this day that are still finding out about this. What better way to get known what is going on than random person checking out MMO-C or something else and it being at the top of the page.

[Relapses]

Well when someone references their opinion as a fact, isn't it valid to not only ask for a source, but worth dismissing their opinion? Or is it better to just let some ignorant thought seep through for the random spectator that might be swade by such nonsense. Believe it or not, in all arguments there are people that sit in the middle. This thread alone has had people who posted they are in the middle and since "X" thing decided to join "Y" side.

Thank you for explaining to me why message board discussions exist. Would you next like to opine about the color of the sky... or perhaps the relative saturation of dihydrogen monoxide... or maybe the airborne velocity of an unladen swallow?

[Eliseus]

Pristine is a bad idea simply because no one wants it.

Pro-Legacy wants to play Vanilla, TBC, Wrath, etc. Not Warlords or Legion on hard mode.

Anti-Legacy wants to play Warlords or Legion as is.

Not to mention when they brought it up on the WoW forums everyone from both sides said it's an awful idea. It would be a complete waste of time and resources. Might as well do nothing at all.

I personally feel doing a Pristine server, and maintaining it and "taking resources from current" that is argued so much (which is funny since a lot of people arguing against Legacy are okay with pristine) would end up hurting them more than just spending time to do Legacy. My problem is there seems to be less interest in Pristine than Legacy. To me, it felt almost thrown out there as a way to determine if that is what players would rather have. If it was easier to throw that idea out there and make people happy, then everything could of been resolved there.

I don't see pristine happening at all to be honest. Unless they do lets say a Legacy progression server, and end up doing tweaks to the server for when it hits eras like WotLK not implementing stuff like the dungeon finder. That is a different story.

[khalltusk]

Yes, it does. It takes them out of their comfort zone because without social interactions you wouldn't progress nearly as successfully. So for all intents and purposes, yes, "forcing" people to be social in MMOs by designing a game to necessitate communication, causes them to be more social. Sociability is your key to bonding, close-knitted groups, and together with a necessity to communicate means success in harder content. I.e rewards. Rewards that people strive for.

Apply this to real life. Perhaps a university course. Take away all group-projects, all introductory greetings.
Make the course so simple no one feels the need or urge to form study groups. And then ask after finals if overall, people are forming less potential chances for friendships.

Sure the goal is for everyone to pass the course right? But it's still a necessity to "force" the social interaction somehow. Taking people who'd otherwise sit alone in a corner feel incentives to talk to people, because they "have" to. At least if they want a decent grade. Or in WoW, gear, titles, mounts and recognition. But all that went away with convenience and the design of everything-needs-to-be-accessible-right-now

That's the state of WoWs social incentive right now. Stay quiet because you don't need anyone else. Why talk when you're just after that guaranteed role-satchel by the end. Rush, you're not going to wipe anyway. No strategy needed. AoE.

hi

k bye thx 4 group.



Nope, they didn't remove the ability to talk. They just inadvertently through many subtle changes made people have no real reason to do it. Perhaps think of the times when getting into a raid group was a lil feat in itself, so you cherished the chance to clear that raid. You talked partly to remain. You stayed despite wipes because you couldn't just bring up a window and apply for another group. Comfort zones are bad for success and WoW is now a cesspool of it.

Forcing people to socialise does not always work. It's that simple. Some people no matter how hard you try just do not want to be social. Even in group assignments at uni etc you get people who clearly hate doing it and do the minimal effort to be part of the group. Thats just how it is sometimes. Sometimes though people like the social side of the game. I enjoyed making a few friends in the past that way. I still do from time to time.

Getting a raid group in the past was never an issue being in a raid guild. Doing dungeons was much the same for me, I would do it with guildies. Sure when the game was first out for me I did pugs a lot and the experience was hit and miss. I had a number of runs that failed and someone left when I first played and we had to go back to town just to find another warm body to complete the dungeon. That is not fun, no matter how much spin you try to put on it. When youre in the dungeon and doing stuff it can be great. Specially when content is new and people are learning and more willing to wipe. On the flip side my brother who was not in a raid guild in most of wows time span had a lot of pugs and he had to wait a long time to get into groups/get groups going and a lot of the time there were ninja's bad players and assholes. It was shocking to see tbh when I first sat down and watched him play.

This is why I think pristine/legacy servers will fill the void for people like you. You can go back to these barebones systems and be as social as you want to be. Let you guys choose your experience you know?

[Eliseus]

Thank you for explaining to me why message board discussions exist. Would you next like to opine about the color of the sky... or perhaps the relative saturation of dihydrogen monoxide... or maybe the airborne velocity of an unladen swallow?

I love how people like this hold onto the idea we are all evil then make posts like this.

Was hoping you would get a better understanding of the phrase you so clearly mock. Oh well, was worth a try.

[Molis]

As a DPS warrior raider in Vanilla, I agree 100%.

We didnt have any DPS warriors. Maybe the RL was gimping us. It was just so hard to find tanks. We had 5 and stuck with them.

I am talking very early Molten Core.

Near the end in Naxx40 a couple of them started getting the itch to DPS, and a couple did in TBC (wearing mostly leather). However we needed them to tank to make any progression.

[Relapses]

I love how people like this hold onto the idea we are all evil then make posts like this.

Was hoping you would get a better understanding of the phrase you so clearly mock. Oh well, was worth a try.

I understand completely. I was replying sarcastically because I didn't need a better understanding of the phrase since lengthy diatribes about the plainly obvious are exactly what 99% of the posts here represent. I've largely given up trying to convince or persuade people of my point of view because I get labeled anything from a Blizzard apologist to a "dumbkid" for expressing my opinion. It's not worth it anymore, sorry to disappoint. :^)

[Molis]

And since when is not having every spec viable really a balance problem?

The balance problem is not enough tanks. One or two take a vacation and shit we cant raid tonight.

If you had a heal spec you healed.

I am not Anti Legacy, but why would we want to go back to this imbalance?

[Jeniwyn]

We didnt have any DPS warriors. Maybe the RL was gimping us. It was just so hard to find tanks. We had 5 and stuck with them.

I am talking very early Molten Core.

Near the end in Naxx40 a couple of them started getting the itch to DPS, and a couple did in TBC (wearing mostly leather). However we needed them to tank to make any progression.

He sure was.

I cannot remember exactly how they ranked in early MC patches, I guess they were at their worst in the period after AP normalization and before the warrior patch, after and all through they were tier 1 dps.

[Eliseus]

The balance problem is not enough tanks. One or two take a vacation and shit we cant raid tonight.

If you had a heal spec you healed.

I am not Anti Legacy, but why would we want to go back to this imbalance?

I think it isn't just a lot of people want to purposely play in this "imbalance" forever. There is a lot who do, but I know a lot of people who want to just experience the game from the beginning. There is many in this thread who have mentioned they got into WoW in TBC, and they want a Legacy server in general, but they also mention just wanting to play it all from the beginning. There is other people who want to try it all from the beginng and do things differently. There are some people who want to play these specs that supposedly don't work and try and beat the odds.

I'm not saying there isn't people who specifically want to be in that imbalance. There is many vocal ones in this thread who want to take advantage of that, but I wouldn't say they are a majority to be honest. You know that thread that just came out that posted those statistics from Watcher on where players do things? I'm sure there could be a similar representation of the stuff people want to do in classic overlooking the imbalance. After-all, the % of players that raided isn't just a small % now, but was a small % then, and outside of raiding people successfully found ways to make all roles viable. Not saying OP stuff didn't exist, but people could play other stuff and enjoy it.

Sorry, I apologize for a small rant. Thoughts were just spinning in circles for a min while typing this. Must be this energy drink I just drank.