Ontario parents will soon be required to take a course on vaccinations...

[RenegadeXan]

I'm a former immunologist that's really enthusiastic about vaccination, but there's something a bit unsavory about reeducation camps for adults. I also doubt that it'll work - this seems more likely to feed into anti-vax conspiracy theories than to convince people that vaccination is sound public health policy.

Ya cause mercury in vaccine is safe!

[Gheld]

You mean you know people who would actually deliberately not vaccinate any offspring in an attempt to thin populations that are not evolutionary well-adept?

I think they are more in the middle. Supporting high efficacy vaccines for high morbidity illnesses. (i.e. MMR) while being against things like the flu shot. I.e. low efficacy against a relatively low morbidity illness.

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Ya cause mercury in vaccine is safe!

The mercury additive isn't even used anymore. It hasn't been used in the developed world for decades now.

[Mad_Murdock]

Anti-vaxxers should be fined heavily or have their children removed from them.

Why not just kill them and the children, it's clear they are an inferior sub-sect of humans and don't deserve to live. No need of polluting the gene pool

[Ripster42]

No such thing as "negative" selection pressure. We can't devolve.

Our bodies have already evolved a mechanism to deal with diseases, vaccines only help enable that system.

What people mean by negative selection pressure just means a relaxation of selection pressure, allowing less fit genotypes to propagate.

The argument that people don't vaccinate because they want to better the human species is fairly foolish though because the increase in "width" of the gene pool more than makes up for the lack of "depth" as far as fitness as a species is concerned.

[Tyrianth]

Ya cause mercury in vaccine is safe!

Yes, low levels of mercury is actually safe. All things are safe in small enough doses. But modern vaccines don't actually have mercury anyway so it's a non-issue.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/pati...lor-office.pdf

[Dug]

Why not just kill them and the children, it's clear they are an inferior sub-sect of humans and don't deserve to live. No need of polluting the gene pool

Because the children are innocent and that's mean

[Gheld]

Because the children are innocent and that's mean

But the'yll just perpetuate anti-vax genes.

[Dug]

But the'yll just perpetuate anti-vax genes.

Well once they're out of the parents hands you can vax em

[Gadion]

I think they are more in the middle. Supporting high efficacy vaccines for high morbidity illnesses. (i.e. MMR) while being against things like the flu shot. I.e. low efficacy against a relatively low morbidity illness.

Okay, this I can understand. I, for one, would consider a similar position. Vaccinate against all possible diseases that could be significantly harmful even given today's medicine, but don't worry too much about the flu shot, the flu is not that serious (at least not to me) and the vaccines aren't guaranteed to work- coupled with the fact that they apparently mutate regularly and you need a new type of vaccine next winter.

This does however mean that I may have the wrong idea of what the selection you were referring to is, and I have to do some more investigation lol. It feels like it's teach-me-science day.

[Heladys]

I'm a former immunologist that's really enthusiastic about vaccination, but there's something a bit unsavory about reeducation camps for adults. I also doubt that it'll work - this seems more likely to feed into anti-vax conspiracy theories than to convince people that vaccination is sound public health policy.

We send all children to mandatory schooling to reduce their built-in stupidity. This is just the next obvious step.

[Endus]

Ya cause mercury in vaccine is safe!

1> There's more "mercury" in a can of tuna than there was in thimerosal-using vaccines. Quote marks used because thimerosal isn't mercury, in the same way that table salt isn't chlorine.

2> Thimerosal hasn't even been used in the developed world for decades, so it's a non-point to begin with.


I'm an Ontarian; the current system prior to this was that they had to file a form for a conscience/religious exemption (different from medical exemptions, if they can't get vaccines for an actual reason). That's still gonna be the case, they're just mandating the class as well. I'm for it; if nothing else, the truly honestly ignorant will get a chance to learn how harmful their choices are. The willfully counterfactual won't be convinced by anything, but removing "honest ignorance" from the list of reasons people make this bad decision is a good thing, IMO. The conscience/religious exemption also means your child will be barred from schools if there's ever an outbreak of any of the illnesses they aren't vaccinated for anywhere in the region; it's not a free pass to infect other students (not necessarily the case for medical exemptions; those are evaluated more generously).

[Gheld]

The reason I'm generally by default against mandatory anything though is because if Stanley Milgram discovered anything, 2/3rds of all people, absolutely without fail, will behave pro anything up to and including torturing an innocent person to death, simply because somebody perceived to be in a role of authority or expertise wants them to.

So while Spectral is actually a scientist by trade, I can respect his opinion. But the reason most of the people come here to be like "YEAH ANTI VAXERS ARE STUPID LOL" do so for the same reason that SS agents tortured jewish people to death. Sure, the end is arguably much better in this case. But the fact is if your doctor was an SS commander telling you to inject ricin into the Jewish patient in the next room, there's a 66% chance you'd do it. As fucking insane and absurd as that sounds. That's the gods honest reality of human nature.

[Mad_Murdock]

Well once they're out of the parents hands you can vax em

Doesn't matter, they already have the parents' failed genes. Best just to burn the bodies and move on.

[Tyrianth]

The reason I'm generally by default against mandatory anything though is because if Stanley Milgram discovered anything, 2/3rds of all people, absolutely without fail, will behave pro anything up to and including torturing an innocent person to death, simply because somebody perceived to be in a role of authority or expertise wants them to.

So while Spectral is actually a scientist by trade, I can respect his opinion. But the reason most of the people come here to be like "YEAH ANTI VAXERS ARE STUPID LOL" do so for the same reason that SS agents tortured jewish people to death. Sure, the end is arguably much better in this case. But the fact is if your doctor was an SS commander telling you to inject ricin into the Jewish patient in the next room, there's a 66% chance you'd do it. As fucking insane and absurd as that sounds. That's the gods honest reality of human nature.

Except those are hardly comparable scenarios, and jumping to fallacies like Reductio ad Hitlerum is a good way to get your entire post dismissed.

[Illuminance]

They still get to be exempt and attend public schools. Still a fail imo

[Knolan]

I know people who understand herd immunity but are anti-vax because it causes negative selection pressure.

Your move.

First: our intelligence is our main advantage, we used it survive, so unless those guy are living in caves and fighting animals with bare hands, they are hypocrites. A spear is no different from a vaccine in the game of survival.

Second: a person who is immune to a certain type of cancer can die to small pox, thus removing the immunity from our gene pool. In other words you may be "selecting" people that are weak to a disease, but you are also killing people that are immune to others, so unless you are also promoting a very well and careful gene study with selected people, you are not guiding humans to a better gene pool.

[ati87]

Okay, this I can understand. I, for one, would consider a similar position. Vaccinate against all possible diseases that could be significantly harmful even given today's medicine, but don't worry too much about the flu shot, the flu is not that serious (at least not to me) and the vaccines aren't guaranteed to work- coupled with the fact that they apparently mutate regularly and you need a new type of vaccine next winter.

This does however mean that I may have the wrong idea of what the selection you were referring to is, and I have to do some more investigation lol. It feels like it's teach-me-science day.

The flue shot isn't even supposed to be for normal healthy people....people have been doing that just because.

The flue shot is for people with a compromised immune system (elderly people or young people that have a chronic disease) and it's to prevent them from getting a life threatening sicknesses and not to prevent them getting the flue because that's literately impossible with the number of variations of the flue.

[Endus]

The flue shot isn't even supposed to be for normal healthy people....people have been doing that just because.

The flue shot is for people with a compromised immune system (elderly people or young people that have a chronic disease) and it's to prevent them from getting a life threatening sicknesses and not to prevent them getting the flue because that's literately impossible with the number of variations of the flue.

Also some people working in certain jobs; I know a lot of doctors and nurses get them, and I used to get them myself when I was working in schools, with kids.

But yeah, for most people, not really worth the bother. It only covers against a few specific strains that are expected to be a problem, not all flu viruses.

[Annoying]

The flue shot isn't even supposed to be for normal healthy people....people have been doing that just because.

The flue shot is for people with a compromised immune system (elderly people or young people that have a chronic disease) and it's to prevent them from getting a life threatening sicknesses and not to prevent them getting the flue because that's literately impossible with the number of variations of the flue.

This is literally entirely wrong. My brother can't get flu shots because of his health. The flu shot is for normal, healthy adults so that people with compromised immune systems (also really young and old people) don't get it. Herd immunity. The number of variations and their severity determine which strain of the flu gets vaccines.

We had one a few years ago where lots of people got the flu because they decided to vaccinate against the rarer, but more dangerous strain.

[Tyrianth]

This is literally entirely wrong. My brother can't get flu shots because of his health. The flu shot is for normal, healthy adults so that people with compromised immune systems (also really young and old people) don't get it. Herd immunity. The number of variations and their severity determine which strain of the flu gets vaccines.

We had one a few years ago where lots of people got the flu because they decided to vaccinate against the rarer, but more dangerous strain.

Herd immunity isn't just for people with compromised immune systems. No vaccine is 100% effective (I think most are around 80 - 90%), so it's also to ensure that the disease has as few possible footholds as possible to minimize the chance of jumping to a vaccinated person.

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Also some people working in certain jobs; I know a lot of doctors and nurses get them, and I used to get them myself when I was working in schools, with kids.

But yeah, for most people, not really worth the bother. It only covers against a few specific strains that are expected to be a problem, not all flu viruses.

It can't hurt to get them though. Lots of places offer the flu shot for free, so while I never go out of my way for the flu shot, if I'm at the mall or a pharmacy and they're giving out flu shots I'll get it.