The Great American Lie: Work Earns Living Wage

[Bodakane]

I think on paper, it is a good idea. Then that opens up the question of what types of extinguishers do you need? What size extinguishers do you need? How many extinguishers are required? What employees should be trained on their use? When should employees attempt to use them verse evacuation? Who is going to enforce the mandate, who is going to enforce and do the biannual/annual checks of the extinguishers?

Exactly.

You need fire extinguishers, but businesses didn't care what kind or if they were operable. People died. So we had to make the law more strict because businesses do what they can to circumvent everything they can.

OSHA enforces that.

[Machismo]

Exactly.

You need fire extinguishers, but businesses didn't care what kind or if they were operable. People died. So we had to make the law more strict because businesses do what they can to circumvent everything they can.

OSHA enforces that.

And OSHA is a bloated bureaucracy that makes the lives of people unnecessarily difficult. They started to nitpick every detail, and people wonder why compliiance is such a pain in the ass, especially for very small businesses. Corporations can deal with it more efficiently, but small businesses do not have the time, personnel or capital to deal with all the bullshit.

[Bodakane]

There isn't an exact color first of all. That's a lie.


I didn't ignore anything, I answered your question. I even followed up with an additional comment about fire extinguishers.

There are OSHA approved colors, are there not? Do those paints cost more?

I said you ignored my reason, not question in that last post.

Yes there are OSHA approved colors, that doesn't mean you have to use them. That's the business that made those paints coming up with something to charge more.

When OSHA gives a color its "red" or "yellow". There's not a specific yellow or red.

There are certain pieces of PPE that must meet given standards like NIOSH requirements. But those are so people aren't killed or injured because of shitty and underhanded production practices, by get this.....businesses trying to loophole shit.

[Machismo]

I said you ignored my reason, not question in that last post.

Yes there are OSHA approved colors, that doesn't mean you have to use them. That's the business that made those paints coming up with something to charge more.

When OSHA gives a color its "red" or "yellow". There's not a specific yellow or red.

There are certain pieces of PPE that must meet given standards like NIOSH requirements. But those are so people aren't killed or injured because of shitty and underhanded production practices, by get this.....businesses trying to loophole shit.

And are those paints more expensive? yes. That's just one small example of a huge iundustry that has erupted to cover the compliance of OSHA products. Your disdain for corporatism is hilarious, considering you promote it.

[Bodakane]

And OSHA is a bloated bureaucracy that makes the lives of people unnecessarily difficult. They started to nitpick every detail, and people wonder why compliiance is such a pain in the ass, especially for very small businesses. Corporations can deal with it more efficiently, but small businesses do not have the time, personnel or capital to deal with all the bullshit.

For the last time, they didn't just nitpick. They made a law because people died or were injured. Businesses implemented the law and cut every corner they could and people died or were injured. So the laws had to become more specific to cover the loopholes.

You are ;literally talking to an actual expert and you have no fucking knowledge of what you're actually saying, just vague bullshit spoonfed to you by Limbaugh.

[Daerio]

And OSHA is a bloated bureaucracy that makes the lives of people unnecessarily difficult. They started to nitpick every detail, and people wonder why compliiance is such a pain in the ass, especially for very small businesses. Corporations can deal with it more efficiently, but small businesses do not have the time, personnel or capital to deal with all the bullshit.

Government is a hammer when sometimes you need a scalpel; but the alternative is having no tools and going hungry.

[Vizardlorde]

The current minimum wage does put an individual out of the poverty level. You are lamenting that the middle class jobs left, but that's not going to change. It makes no sense to create middle class pay out of low-skilled labor.

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That would depend on where you live. How many hours a week do you spend looking/applying for better-paying jobs? How many hours a week do you spend increasing your skillset?

Jobhunting in miami is useless i spent weeks trying to find a minimum wage job with no luck. I got this job cause of friends. I am working on a public adjuster license though.

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The current minimum wage does put an individual out of the poverty level. You are lamenting that the middle class jobs left, but that's not going to change. It makes no sense to create middle class pay out of low-skilled labor.

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That would depend on where you live. How many hours a week do you spend looking/applying for better-paying jobs? How many hours a week do you spend increasing your skillset?

Jobhunting in miami is useless i spent weeks trying to find a minimum wage job with no luck. The employers prefer part timers and temps. I got this job cause of friends. I am working on a public adjuster license though.

[Bodakane]

And are those paints more expensive? yes. That's just one small example of a huge iundustry that has erupted to cover the compliance of OSHA products. Your disdain for corporatism is hilarious, considering you promote it.

YOU DONT NEED OSHA SPECIFIC PAINT!!!!!!!!! No where does it tell you that. No where.

Businesses, those precious snowflakes you cherish, are literally screwing people over by charging more for them.

[Machismo]

For the last time, they didn't just nitpick. They made a law because people died or were injured. Businesses implemented the law and cut every corner they could and people died or were injured. So the laws had to become more specific to cover the loopholes.

You are ;literally talking to an actual expert and you have no fucking knowledge of what you're actually saying, just vague bullshit spoonfed to you by Limbaugh.

Do you think I listen to Limbaugh? If so, you are an idiot. Sorry, I don't fit into your little box.

The more laws that are created, the more of a pain in the ass it is to go through life. Businesses get sued under the ADA for utterly mundane bullshit, all because of shit like OSHA regulations. You have a vested interest in making it as difficult as possible, your job security relies on it. You support all of it, because it's how you make a profit. You are a corporatist, and don't even realize it.

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Government is a hammer when sometimes you need a scalpel; but the alternative is having no tools and going hungry.

Which is exactly what corporations do to screw over others. How are you any different than them?

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Jobhunting in miami is useless i spent weeks trying to find a minimum wage job with no luck. I got this job cause of friends. I am working on a public adjuster license though.

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Jobhunting in miami is useless i spent weeks trying to find a minimum wage job with no luck. The employers prefer part timers and temps. I got this job cause of friends. I am working on a public adjuster license though.

SO, you don't spend any hours looking for a better job, or trying to improve your skillset. Since you agreed to work at that price, what justification do you have for deserving more money?

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YOU DONT NEED OSHA SPECIFIC PAINT!!!!!!!!! No where does it tell you that. No where.

Businesses, those precious snowflakes you cherish, are literally screwing people over by charging more for them.

You are a self-loathing corporatist, and you don't even realize it.

[Bodakane]

Do you think I listen to Limbaugh? If so, you are an idiot. Sorry, I don't fit into your little box.

The more laws that are created, the more of a pain in the ass it is to go through life. Businesses get sued under the ADA for utterly mundane bullshit, all because of shit like OSHA regulations. You have a vested interest in making it as difficult as possible, your job security relies on it. You support all of it, because it's how you make a profit. You are a corporatist, and don't even realize it.

I don't give two shits about my job and as I've said numerous times now, I felt this way before I took it. You repeating the same crap when I've already told you it doesn't apply makes you look stupid.

What are you not getting about what I'm saying? You literally ignore every point I make, then spout off about bullshit that is demonstrably not rue, like specific paint.

What law is useful in your mind? Any of them?

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You are a self-loathing corporatist, and you don't even realize it.

WTF are you talking about?

What did I say in that post that wasn't true?

[Daerio]

Which is exactly what corporations do to screw over others. How are you any different than them?

There's balance and counterbalance. They have effectively shifted all of their tax burden to the middle/lower class. It's not about the morals of taxation, it's about unsustainability. Even some millionaires realize they can't have an economy with no customers.

To say that I have some moral obligation as an individual and that corporations do not; more right-wing crazy.

[Machismo]

I don't give two shits about my job and as I've said numerous times now, I felt this way before I took it. You repeating the same crap when I've already told you it doesn't apply makes you look stupid.

What are you not getting about what I'm saying? You literally ignore every point I make, then spout off about bullshit that is demonstrably not rue, like specific paint.

What law is useful in your mind? Any of them?

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WTF are you talking about?

What did I say in that post that wasn't true?

You are pushing corporatism via your support of unnecessary regulations. That's how corporatism works. They push legislation, and use it to create competitive advantages. You are an unwitting player in it all.

You do seem to care about your job, after all, it's the only thing keeping you from being poor again.

[Mifuyne]

As a outsider all I can say is that people think they are "free" and think they have rights are sort of deluded.
It's not that I blame them - the people in charge take great care to keep the masses under their thumb.

[Kraenen]

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-r...lottery-2012-3
...

Seems to be a reliable connection, although on the whole it still looks like the things you mentioned are a minor share of total expenses (which are largely housing, food, transport, life insurance).

Just another source which gives a decent summary that I found interesting:

As the chart above shows, the rich spend more in almost every category, because they can. As a percentage of their total incomes, which are larger, the rich generally spend less. The result is that the rich have relatively more to spare after covering essentials such as housing, despite their more extravagant budgets in these categories.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...d-their-money/

So it may well be that the poor need better budgeting skills. Although there may be some scaling problems where, for example, housing prices don't rise as fast as income does in the upper brackets, meaning the proportion spent on housing is lower.

[Machismo]

There's balance and counterbalance. They have effectively shifted all of their tax burden to the middle/lower class. It's not about the morals of taxation, it's about unsustainability. Even some millionaires realize they can't have an economy with no customers.

To say that I have some moral obligation as an individual and that corporations do not; more right-wing crazy.

And getting rid of tax loopholes makes sense. So does forcing everyone to pay taxes, including churches. As soon as everyone is paying, then they will feel compelled to have a more fiscally-responsible government.

We all have the same basic moral obligaiton, do not harm others. That's all that is really required of us, and businesses. However, a business who offers a low salary is not harming anyone, sinc ethat person agreed to work for that price.

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Seems to be a reliable connection, although on the whole it still looks like the things you mentioned are a minor share of total expenses (which are largely housing, food, transport, life insurance).

Just another source which gives a decent summary that I found interesting:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...d-their-money/

So it may well be that the poor need better budgeting skills. Although there may be some scaling problems where, for example, housing prices don't rise as fast as income does in the upper brackets, meaning the proportion spent on housing is lower.

Housing, food at home, and transportation are still the major expenses. However, that makes sense, since they have less money to work with. Most low-income people do waste more money than they should, which hurst them significantly in the long term.

[Cthulhu 2020]

The current minimum wage does put an individual out of the poverty level. You are lamenting that the middle class jobs left, but that's not going to change. It makes no sense to create middle class pay out of low-skilled labor.

Minimum wage, you know, the wage they pay for low skilled workers, used to be able to support a family at bare subsistence level. Now it can't even support a single person at bare subsistence level without government welfare. Individuals on minimum wage could stash away money for betterment, to save for education, investment, or even to open their own business. Minimum wage now requires that the individual be on welfare just to get by.

You keep demanding that people better themselves, but don't seem to be willing to pay them a wage that allows them to readily do that.

Why can't we raise the minimum wage to levels that would allow people to do this? America did it once before, so why not now? What makes now so different that we must pay minimum wage workers so little?

People claim that raising it will cause mass inflation, unemployment, etc. but during every single minimum wage hike in our history, there was no noticeable affect on employment or inflation. In fact sometimes unemployment went down. For inflation, it was random. There was either low inflation (less than 1%) in the years following, and sometimes slightly higher, but not high (~3%, up to 5%) in the years following. All of the doom stories people talk about if we raise the minimum wage have not happened to any minimum wage hike in our history.

[Daerio]

And getting rid of tax loopholes makes sense. So does forcing everyone to pay taxes, including churches. As soon as everyone is paying, then they will feel compelled to have a more fiscally-responsible government.

We all have the same basic moral obligaiton, do not harm others. That's all that is really required of us, and businesses. However, a business who offers a low salary is not harming anyone, sinc ethat person agreed to work for that price.

And asking businesses to pay taxes isn't harming anyone either, since we all agreed to live in society where people do those things.

The problem is we've been letting them get away with paying no taxes for so long people are actually starting to think it's ok.

[Bodakane]

You are pushing corporatism via your support of unnecessary regulations. That's how corporatism works. They push legislation, and use it to create competitive advantages. You are an unwitting player in it all.

You do seem to care about your job, after all, it's the only thing keeping you from being poor again.

Stop ignoring my points. Deal with the facts I'm giving you instead of being the anarchist zealot you've been. For example, admit you were wrong about the paint. Start there.

I got this job and I can get another.

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You are pushing corporatism via your support of unnecessary regulations. That's how corporatism works. They push legislation, and use it to create competitive advantages. You are an unwitting player in it all.

You do seem to care about your job, after all, it's the only thing keeping you from being poor again.

Stop ignoring my points. Deal with the facts I'm giving you instead of being the anarchist zealot you've been. For example, admit you were wrong about the paint. Start there.

I got this job and I can get another.

[Machismo]

Minimum wage, you know, the wage they pay for low skilled workers, used to be able to support a family at bare subsistence level. Now it can't even support a single person at bare subsistence level without government welfare. Individuals on minimum wage could stash away money for betterment, to save for education, investment, or even to open their own business. Minimum wage now requires that the individual be on welfare just to get by.

You keep demanding that people better themselves, but don't seem to be willing to pay them a wage that allows them to readily do that.

Why can't we raise the minimum wage to levels that would allow people to do this? America did it once before, so why not now? What makes now so different that we must pay minimum wage workers so little?

Why should I pay someone a better wage if they do not get better?

American has raised the minimum wage many times, and will continue to do so. However, there's no justification for it to be what some people want. It shouldn't be $15 an hour, and certainly not $20-26 an hour. The highest it has ever been, is $10.54 when adjusted for inflation. It makes far more sense to base a minimum wage on cost of living in an area, which many cities and states have already done.

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And asking businesses to pay taxes isn't harming anyone either, since we all agreed to live in society where people do those things.

The problem is we've been letting them get away with paying no taxes for so long people are actually starting to think it's ok.

The vast majority of businesses pay taxes. Getting rid of loopholes is the key to stopping the small number of businesses that do not. Adding new laws (which is what many people want) is not the answer, getting rid of the old, shitty laws is the answer.

[Kraenen]

Minimum wage, you know, the wage they pay for low skilled workers, used to be able to support a family at bare subsistence level. Now it can't even support a single person at bare subsistence level without government welfare. Individuals on minimum wage could stash away money for betterment, to save for education, investment, or even to open their own business. Minimum wage now requires that the individual be on welfare just to get by.

You keep demanding that people better themselves, but don't seem to be willing to pay them a wage that allows them to readily do that.

It isn't really his place to pay random people who aren't doing him a service money.

Housing/rent prices are really the main culprit. Although as previously mentioned, the poor spend more on unnecessary things like gambling and tobacco (which account for a small portion of expenses, but let's be real here - when you're poor every penny should matter).