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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Lesane View Post
    Why would burst be valued more? The reason you can consistently get off such huge burst damage is because of CC.
    Because, with lower cc durations, you need even more burst to kill someone in the cc window. Safe & reliable hero removal with no or very low risk or downside is the core of competitive play. Lower cc durations inevitably brings higher burst to the meta.

  2. #62
    I'm not sure I agree with the rationale of the stun nerfs, if chaining them is the issue this doesn't really address it. A 4 second stun chain becomes a 3.5s stun chain, rougly, with these changes which is still more than enough to kill something if you're coordinated enough to land the chain in the first place.

    Something I've been considering for a while is to move all generic talents to their own talent system, with fewer talents tiers total, perhaps 3 or 4, but all the generic talents held within them (no doubt some would need to be omitted here and there for characters where it makes sense).

    In this generic tree there could be a weaker form of relentless offered to many heroes, this would allow stun/CC design space to be opened up since you can be confident that it can't be abused as easily and we'd need less quick and dirty fixes like this to be implemented.
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  3. #63
    Immortal Frozen Death Knight's Avatar
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    Sometimes I do not understand Blizzard's thought process. They nerfed Embrace Death, a talent that has never had any complaints about since Alpha/Beta, despite the fact that it was not the reason why the Death Coil build was overtuned. Immortal Coil was the entire reason why the Death Coil build was ridiculously powerful. They should have halved the self heal from the talent and kept the burst from Embrace Death, which was a high risk talent until they overbuffed Immortal Coil and put it at lvl 7. It is such an awkward change.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelly View Post
    If anything they should've implemented the diminishing returns system WoW has.
    I agree this solves the issue quickly, but I think Blizzard has a very love/hate relationship with it. It's great because it works but it's very difficult to quickly and efficiently relay what's going on before and after each stun to the player who is about to chain their CC.

    The HotS team seems to have a very clear image that things need to be simple af in the game, in my humble opinion this has been to their continued detriment, but because of it I don't seem them adding a DR system easily.
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  5. #65
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lesane View Post
    To be honest if you include them in the PTR patch notes it's still an overall nerf.
    Regarding Leoric (and Chen); why a nerf? It's not a relevant buff, but it's still marginally more health and more regen. Am I missing something?

    And pretty hilarious, that Gazlowe's stun gets a duration nerf and Tyrande's idiot-proof insta-stun remains untouched. Still overall solid changes.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by thevoicefromwithin View Post
    Regarding Leoric (and Chen); why a nerf? It's not a relevant buff, but it's still marginally more health and more regen. Am I missing something?
    regen master was nerfed from 1.5 per globe to 1 per globe, and caps at 30 globes collected, so no going over 30 regen per second - both chen and leoric relied pretty heavily on that talent

    Quote Originally Posted by thevoicefromwithin View Post
    And pretty hilarious, that Gazlowe's stun gets a duration nerf and Tyrande's idiot-proof insta-stun remains untouched. Still overall solid changes.
    Tyrande's "idiot proof" stun was literally the first stun they nerfed half a year ago, if they reduce the duration of it any more they may as well delete the spell

    Quote Originally Posted by Chelly View Post
    If anything they should've implemented the diminishing returns system WoW has.
    diminishing returns don't really function in any game that involves aoe skillshot cc
    Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2016-05-13 at 11:13 AM.

  7. #67
    Immortal Frozen Death Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thevoicefromwithin View Post
    Regarding Leoric (and Chen); why a nerf? It's not a relevant buff, but it's still marginally more health and more regen. Am I missing something?

    And pretty hilarious, that Gazlowe's stun gets a duration nerf and Tyrande's idiot-proof insta-stun remains untouched. Still overall solid changes.
    Regeneration Master on live has unlimited stacks of health regen and can reach over 100 health/sec in long matches. Comparing that to 30 health/sec cap and 500-700 health depending on the Hero when completing it is a joke. You regenerate so much health that you heal up for the same amount that you gain from completing the quest in a couple of seconds. There is really no comparison, especially when Chen picks Amplified healing which made the healing effect from globes as well as the health regen passive more potent. Leoric needed that health regen to even be somewhat viable and he is now pretty gimped in the survivability department.

    Also, you get 30 health/sec from 20 globes on live while the new Regeneration Master requires 30. That is a massive nerf because it makes the overall value of this talent a mere shadow of what it used to be.
    Last edited by Frozen Death Knight; 2016-05-13 at 03:26 PM.

  8. #68
    Why are you using a completely unrealistic HP regen figure to prove it's a huge nerf? 100 globes in a match happens practically never (52 for Chen). If you could get all three globes from all three lanes EVERY single time it would take 16 minutes in a game that averages 20 minutes
    Even if you could grab every single camp from both sides you'd be over 10 minutes...

    Now back in the real world 30 globes in a typical game is actually fairly reasonable. On the losing team you can very easily not even break 20.

    So the actual comparison, not some completely unrealistic one is....

    30hp/s +500-700 hp
    vs
    45hp/s.

    You do realise at a difference of 15hp/s that takes 33 seconds to regen 500hp extra over the change. 46s for 700hp
    Your couple of seconds to regen 500hp is as much an over exaggeration as is getting anywhere near 100 globes a game.
    Last edited by Zelendria; 2016-05-13 at 12:22 PM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Lesane View Post
    Not situational to the point where you'd ever want to give up the slow mines for something as bad as networked carapace. Unless you are in the "situation" where you want to troll your team and yourself.
    Slow mines are good, but they are not mandatory.

    I rarely take them as Abathur, actually. There are plenty of other viable builds.
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  10. #70
    Immortal Frozen Death Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelendria View Post
    Why are you using a completely unrealistic HP regen figure to prove it's a huge nerf? 100 globes in a match happens practically never. If you could get all three globes from all three lanes EVERY single time it would take 16 minutes in a game that averages 20 minutes
    Even if you could grab every single camp from both sides you'd be over 10 minutes...

    Now back in the real world 30 globes in a typical game is actually fairly reasonable. On the losing team you can very easily not even break 20.

    So the actual comparison, not some completely unrealistic one is....

    30hp/s +500-700 hp
    vs
    45hp/s.

    You do realise at a difference of 15hp/s that takes 33 seconds to regen 500hp extra over the change. 46s for 700hp
    Your couple of seconds to regen 500hp is as much an over exaggeration as is getting anywhere near 100 globes a game.
    You are failing to grasp the situation here. The old Regeneration Master is better, period. 1,5 health/sec per globe against 1 health/sec per globe has cut the effectiveness of the talent by a very significant margin. The new Regeneration Master is 2/3 as effective and it takes far longer to get the same effect as the old one. That means you will not have your precious 30 health/sec + extra health for a far longer time than if you had the old talent and you will be less powerful until your health spike does occur. After that spike, you are then stuck. You can not make you scale past that threshold and you are now far worse off because you have lost so much health regen thanks to the cap.

    If the new Regeneration Master was not capped and still gave 500 health at 30 globes, then it would have been a better talent than the old one. However, because it is capped and it is slower than the old talent, it is nerfed when looking at the power scaling throughout the entire game with the exception of a small portion where you do get the health boost. I have tried this talent out a few times already on the PTR and seen the feedback from other Warrior players who also had Regeneration Master. Everyone is stating that it is a nerf with the only exception being Rexxar who already had 1 health/sec per globe. It is also the the reason why Blizzard buffed the health of a bunch of Warriors because they noticed that they lost a lot from this change.
    Last edited by Frozen Death Knight; 2016-05-13 at 01:12 PM.

  11. #71
    Health regen is only good if you survived to tell the tale. Given that the warriors with this talent all have issues with surviving the initial onslaught. Having extra HP to use the regen you do have beats have more regen, but being dead.
    33% or 1/3 worse sounds a lot, but realistically the difference is actual minimal. 33% of f**k all is still f**k all.

    A teamfight latter in the game, level 20 talents, when you have a typical amount of globes, you don't last anywhere near long enough that 15hp/s is regenerating 500hp. You've either won or lost the fight by that point.

    Early/mid game sustain is hard to quantify, but towards the latter parts the extra HP can be the difference of simply being dead or alive.
    Last edited by Zelendria; 2016-05-13 at 12:49 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelendria View Post
    Health regen is only good if you survived to tell the tale. Given that the warriors with this talent all have issues with surviving the initial onslaught. Having extra HP to use the regen you do have beats have more regen, but being dead.
    33% or 1/3 worse sounds a lot, but realistically the difference is actual minimal. 33% of f**k all is still f**k all.

    A teamfight latter in the game when you have a typical amount of globes you don't last anywhere near long enough that 15hp/s is regenerating 500hp. You've either won or lost the fight by that point.
    Health regen is overall better than just pure hp for some of the Warriors. Also, why do you think Cho'gall has been so weak when there are a bunch of Heroes that can scale their damage on health percentage? No, health regen nerf on Regeneration Master is a pretty significant nerf. I'm even reconsidering picking it a lot on Anub'arak and go Dampen Magic because that talent along with Chitinous Plating has actually made him a pretty potent anti-magic tank more than anything, especially with the launch of Chromie coming soon.

    You can spin it however you like, but the new Regeneration Master is not a buff by any stretch of the imagination.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    Because, with lower cc durations, you need even more burst to kill someone in the cc window. Safe & reliable hero removal with no or very low risk or downside is the core of competitive play. Lower cc durations inevitably brings higher burst to the meta.
    There is a limit to how much burst you can bring. The comps that want to burst down people already bring all the burst they can get. Reducing the duration of CC they can put out just makes doing that more risky. When the power of blowing someone up during CC is reduced due to CC not lasting as long, that can also introduce comps based less on such gameplay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chelly View Post
    If anything they should've implemented the diminishing returns system WoW has.
    WoW's system is there because they have 8 second CC's and nothing is skillshot based. It's really not needed for HotS.

    Quote Originally Posted by thevoicefromwithin View Post
    Regarding Leoric (and Chen); why a nerf? It's not a relevant buff, but it's still marginally more health and more regen. Am I missing something?

    And pretty hilarious, that Gazlowe's stun gets a duration nerf and Tyrande's idiot-proof insta-stun remains untouched. Still overall solid changes.
    Regen Master got nerfed, which especially fucks over Leoric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Slow mines are good, but they are not mandatory.

    I rarely take them as Abathur, actually. There are plenty of other viable builds.
    If you rarely take slow mines on Abathur you're not playing Abathur right.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    I agree this solves the issue quickly, but I think Blizzard has a very love/hate relationship with it. It's great because it works but it's very difficult to quickly and efficiently relay what's going on before and after each stun to the player who is about to chain their CC.

    The HotS team seems to have a very clear image that things need to be simple af in the game, in my humble opinion this has been to their continued detriment, but because of it I don't seem them adding a DR system easily.
    I also don't get why supports have control in the 1st place. I don't want a shitty 0.75 stun on my Uther. Give me another healing ability, or something that a healer would have. Not a stun.

    And while we are at it...

    gief new supp plx xD

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesane View Post
    There is a limit to how much burst you can bring. The comps that want to burst down people already bring all the burst they can get. Reducing the duration of CC they can put out just makes doing that more risky. When the power of blowing someone up during CC is reduced due to CC not lasting as long, that can also introduce comps based less on such gameplay.
    Certainly, they do. We don't care about what's going on the pro scene though, because none of us is playing there. We're playing in HL. Even about the pro scene and meta though, that just means that Blizzard will be bringing more burst champions to the table with the new releases as apparently they've started to balance things around the pro scene.

    And certainly, it could introduce comps that rely less on it, but there are no heroes other than Lunara that take a route other than CC->Kill at the moment.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    I also don't get why supports have control in the 1st place. I don't want a shitty 0.75 stun on my Uther. Give me another healing ability, or something that a healer would have. Not a stun.

    And while we are at it...

    gief new supp plx xD
    You really want healbot supports to be even more of a healbot?

  16. #76
    Deleted
    Cheers guys, missed that part of the PTR patch.

  17. #77
    I've never been a fan of stuns in mobas, nothing feels worse than getting shut off for 3 seconds none the less chain stunned into your first night in prison with your cellmate Bubba. Remove them for all I care.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Lesane View Post
    You really want healbot supports to be even more of a healbot?
    No. More interaction between healing spells would be very nice. Skillshots like Uther's W would also be nice. This is a moba though, so... it can't get more complicated, I feel, than click target, heal.
    Last edited by Well; 2016-05-13 at 05:45 PM.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    No. More interaction between healing spells would be very nice. Skillshots like Uther's W would also be nice. This is a moba though, so... it can't get more complicated, I feel, than click target, heal.
    Why not? They can basically convert all kinds of damaging abilities into healing ones.

    For example why not make a big AoE Heal after a small delay like Kael'thas' Flamestrike, channeled Heal like Cho'gall's Shadow Bolt Volley or summoning/building Units to Heal like Zagara's Hydralisk or Gazlowe's Turrets? Even one of the crazier abilities like dropping Healing globes around the map like Abathur's Toxic Nests can be made into a healing spell.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelendria View Post
    Health regen is only good if you survived to tell the tale. Given that the warriors with this talent all have issues with surviving the initial onslaught. Having extra HP to use the regen you do have beats have more regen, but being dead.
    33% or 1/3 worse sounds a lot, but realistically the difference is actual minimal. 33% of f**k all is still f**k all.

    A teamfight latter in the game, level 20 talents, when you have a typical amount of globes, you don't last anywhere near long enough that 15hp/s is regenerating 500hp. You've either won or lost the fight by that point.

    Early/mid game sustain is hard to quantify, but towards the latter parts the extra HP can be the difference of simply being dead or alive.
    15 hp/s is only 10 globes on live, if you get to lvl 20 and have only gathered 10 globes then you have a bigger problem. If you don't have even 10 globes by level 10 then you shouldn't have even picked the talent, because you're clearly not using it well.
    Last edited by TEHPALLYTANK; 2016-05-13 at 08:58 PM.
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