Arms Legion Discussion

[Teaon]

slam prio mortal

slam prio execute in execute phase


please blizzard no just no, i wish i had beta account, i would get myself banned

[Artunias]

You can tweet them.
@Warcraftdevs @Watcherdev @Celestalon @Holinka

[Archimtiros]

I like how you have started using some more stronger words. Maybe they will sink in better.

I've just started to care less about being tactful. My earlier posts were full of exposition and explanation as to why XYZ was good or bad for the game, they obviously didn't care; so now they get "this sucks, fix it".

In other words, I'm putting as much effort as they are.

[Calamari]

Got a chance to do some early fiddling with arms, just a few pet peeve things that came to mind so far:

It would be such a relief if Victory Rush applied Colossus Smash, or if a killing blow would reset cd on CS. While leveling find myself constantly holding on to CS procs for the next mob, because pulling anything without a CS ready just feels so bad.

Overpower. Our strongest attack after Execute, is not a mighty weapon swing, but a shoulder tackle... this is so trivial I know, but it bothers me lol. I guess that's a good sign since I can't really come up with too many things concerning actual arms gameplay that bother me so far.

Bladestorm is insane. Just... what in the world is up with that damage? It's even the strongest single target CD we have now? Just feels completely over the top broken. They could take a -huge- chunk out of that and shift it into Cleave for example, which hits like a wet noodle.

Fishing for Slam procs still feels wrong, but doesn't feel quite as bad in practice as in theory.

[Warriorsarri]

You are correct in assuming BS is op as fack. Just macro Reck and BS and use it with CS on the target (or use Warbreaker before on AoE) and your target will be dead by the time you stop spinning.

[Artunias]

It's WotLK Bladestorm, supreme damage.

[Teaon]

It's WotLK Bladestorm, supreme damage.

people will complain, it gets nerfed with no other buff to compensate, and ta-dah we are on the bottom again

[Celarent]

Anyone have dungeon boss or raid boss logs? What's Colossus Smash's uptime, generally? I'm curious about whether a surgical change to CS would work or not.

Edit: Awesome, Sarri. That's perfect. Many thanks.

[chooi]

I used to think the same, and it's not surprising that people are getting more and more frustrated when they're asked to give feedback and then ignored, but I'm staring to wonder if stronger words and examples of how to change things aren't hurting our cause. If we're truly dealing with egomaniacs, which I think is certainly the case with Celestalon, then stronger words are going to cause him to skip the post, and if we really do have good ideas - ones that he may be considering - he may be hesitating to implement them because doing so would be tantamount to admitting that someone had a better idea than he did.

Pants down and bend over for your overlord. Maybe then he'll listen.


JK. No. Seriously. Fuck this. This spec is awful. I was prepared for the worst but it's even worse than WoD Arms IMO. I got fed up after 30min of playing it yesterday and the next few hours were actually torture. I could make a page-long rant so terrible is Legion Arms. It's boring, frustrating and disgusting to play. I can't find anything positive about it except the '6sec of glory' every minute with Warbreaker+Reckstorm on AoE. Not even bothering with leveling my Warrior in Legion anymore if the spec stays this way. I'm actually frightened to test out Fury after this Arms disaster.

And they need to know.

(But I can't write something right now because I would be banned after that feedback post.)

[Artunias]

Fury is still way better than Arms. For everything IMO, but especially leveling.

[Warriorsarri]

Anyone have dungeon boss or raid boss logs? What's Colossus Smash's uptime, generally? I'm curious about whether a surgical change to CS would work or not.

Here you have my kill of Krosus Heroic (closest to patchwerk this tier), my CS up-time can be found here

JK. No. Seriously. Fuck this. This spec is awful. I was prepared for the worst but it's even worse than WoD Arms IMO. I got fed up after 30min of playing it yesterday and the next few hours were actually torture. I could make a page-long rant so terrible is Legion Arms. It's boring, frustrating and disgusting to play. I can't find anything positive about it except the '6sec of glory' every minute with Warbreaker+Reckstorm on AoE. Not even bothering with leveling my Warrior in Legion anymore if the spec stays this way. I'm actually frightened to test out Fury after this Arms disaster.

I agree with you, Arms is not in its best place right now, and I do also agree that in in some regards are worse than current live Arms (with tier+class trinket). With that said Arms does start to feel better once you get more gear. Haste makes Arms feel a lot better, and once you get around 20% it felt (in my opinion) quite alright. The spec is far from perfect, and there are a lot of things that they can, and should do, in order to fix the spec before it goes live, but it does get better once you gear up.

Also, regarding leveling. Simply picking Second Wind will make Arms faceroll its way to level 110. If you have SW it's impossible to die, unless you pull way to much without BS ready. Simply taking the time to loot the mobs will mean you will get at least 1 tick off in between the mobs. Also, if you ever get even close to dying you can simply do a fear and sit still and let yourself get back to full HP.

[Deleted]

I used to think the same, and it's not surprising that people are getting more and more frustrated when they're asked to give feedback and then ignored, but I'm staring to wonder if stronger words and examples of how to change things aren't hurting our cause. If we're truly dealing with egomaniacs, which I think is certainly the case with Celestalon, then stronger words are going to cause him to skip the post, and if we really do have good ideas - ones that he may be considering - he may be hesitating to implement them because doing so would be tantamount to admitting that someone had a better idea than he did.

That's why at this point - with their core design choices seemingly in place - I'm changing all my feedback to the format of: "x isn't fun and here's why," and excluding ideas about how to fix it. For example, my prot warrior feedback is just simply going to be repeating this:

"Knowing that gearing up hurts your resource generation takes all the fun out of gearing up."

Well-summarized, well-written! Celestalon the egomaniac \spit! His post "We like how Warriors play at the moment..." was absolutely retarded. Who cares whether Celestalon likes it or not, it's all about us, the players!!!
This spreadsheet guy is a cancer for WoW, a deaf horse with blinders. He likes his product but the majority of the players don't. Holinka also gets a honorable mention on this topic. So unprofessional! And he is getting good bucks for it! Does he design the game only for himself to play it? If so Blizzard should let us know so that we don't waste our time with this game.

You got our support, go ahead with this "x isn't fun and here's why," format. Success! You can do it, I believe in you! Maybe there are still some reasonable people in the designer team who read in players' feedback seriously.

[Breccia]

Make sure you mention the civil discussion Celestalon wanted on the last Arms forum, literally the last post he made before vanishing for eleven months. He does NOT get out of that one.

[Archimtiros]

Just want to point out that he's the spokesperson. He doesn't lead the team, nor does he specifically design everything in the game. Not to say you aren't entitled to feel upset, but take care not to misplace your anger just because his is the only name you recognize.

[Beardyface]

Yes, I know Celestalon isn't a one man design team. I'm essentially using him to personify the whole team.

And I'm not saying "don't tell them Arms sucks" - by all means, please tell them!

All I'm saying is, if they really are the egomaniacs I think they are, they won't implement ideas we give them "i.e. remove tactician and shorten CS cooldown to 30 sec" simply because they can't handle admitting their design is awful.

HOWEVER

If they hear "hey, arms isn't fun right now because I have all these iconic abilities like MS and Execute that I have very little reason to use over slam" enough times and think "hmm, maybe removing tactician and giving CS a 30 second cooldown would help with that," then they might just implement it because it was their idea.

The whole trick in dealing with people like this is to make them think it was their idea.

Just a suggestion of course. What's more important is that everyone in the beta should go leave feedback:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20743676205

[Ryxxi]

As usual, Everyone is like "this is alpha, things will change" and when the beta comes out everyone is disappointed. This happens every expansion.

WoW is starting to feel like COD franchise. On the Other hand Diablo 3 devs are really good and they listen to player feedback a lot. They changed multiple things is reaper of souls after listening to feedback.

[Chain Chungus]

A couple things I want for Arms (most issues have already been touched on):

Charge minimum distance removed so I can use it on cooldown to generate rage. Running out to get range is just a pointless restriction. In fact, remove all minimum distances on warriors (this should have happened when hunters' minimum distance was removed). It's just an archaic mechanic that is unnecessary now.

If they are really serious about "spec fantasy" they need to remove Titan's Grip from Fury. It really kills the cool factor of Arms to have another warrior spec that is just "double Arms." Even when tuned to balance the two specs, it makes no logical sense. Two 2H weapons would always be better than one if all else is equal.

[Archimtiros]

A couple things I want for Arms (most issues have already been touched on):

Charge minimum distance removed so I can use it on cooldown to generate rage. Running out to get range is just a pointless restriction. In fact, remove all minimum distances on warriors (this should have happened when hunters' minimum distance was removed). It's just an archaic mechanic that is unnecessary now.

If they are really serious about "spec fantasy" they need to remove Titan's Grip from Fury. It really kills the cool factor of Arms to have another warrior spec that is just "double Arms." Even when tuned to balance the two specs, it makes no logical sense. Two 2H weapons would always be better than one if all else is equal.

I don't agree with this.

Charge is meant to be an engagement ability, not one you use rotationally for rage; in fact that's anti-thesis to it's point as mobility (see: issue currently plaguing Demon Hunters in which their mobility is being used for DPS, which is a mechanic I heavily disagree with, as it removes their reactionary tools, mobility, in favor of extra damage).

Minimum ranges aren't archaic at all, and the issue isn't even with Charge, it's just symptomatic of a larger problem: Gaps in the rotation which allow/encourage skipping GCDs in favor of Charge. This is exactly why the multi-target restriction was added in WoD (terrible decision) rather than simply fixing the rotation. If the rotation were fixed to favor filling GCDs over generating the extra rage, it wouldn't be a problem and Charge would be returned to it's niche.

Titan's Grip is meant to give Fury unique flavor, and while removing it might make Arms seem more noteworthy by comparison, similar to the last case, it's an inelegant solution to the actual problem: Arms doesn't have it's own defining characteristic.

More than anything this is largely an aesthetic issue, which is honestly easy to fix; it just requires the ambition and creativity to do so. I was in favor of simply increasing the scale of the Arms artifact to better differentiate it from other 2h weapons, making it akin to a Mighty Weapon from D3 - also to echo the Barbarian theme, but that certainly isn't the only way to go about it. At any rate, I don't believe that hurting one spec is the solution to making another feel better; that just sticks you with the opposite problem of Fury lacking identity.

[Teaon]

Two 2H weapons would always be better than one if all else is equal.

not really, stabing someone randomly with 2 knives is less critical than doing it in the heart with 1 knife.

my point is, arms find the weak spot and hit it hard with his weapon.

while fury just land random hits on the enemy.

some people enjoy different playstyle, i enjoy landing KO hits, rather than punching someone endlessly, hence i hate the state of arms, slam mashing and ignoring key abilites like mortal and execute that used to deal massive damage ( unless something proc that makes them useful ), that is totally not arms playstyle

[Vojka]

Won't they re-tune it to the point where its worth using MS over slam anyway? or execute as well? I don't think we can expect any mechanical changes but I do think that they won't want us to drop everything else just to slam to get our csmash back.