Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Eapoe]

The end.

I have spent so much time arguing with evidence-obsessed people to know that you don't have a case.

Either prove it, or remain silent.

Your evidence-based approach applies to you too.

What would Kern have to gain from wanting to preserve an 11 year old game???

We are not in a court of law where proof is necessary to make a point; rather, we are in a public forum where people can express ideas, concerns, opinions, pro or anti views, etc., based on the information we have been given or observed 1st hand.
As far as his motivations for preserving an 11 year old VERSION of a game we are still playing to this day? One can make many arguements for or against this. Going by Kern's history, a person can state that he is motivated only by becoming relevant again and at the same time promoting his new company (which he has done on his Twitter account). A person can argue that since he had a hand in creating WoW that when this topic came up he saw a perfect opportunity to do just that, given his past with the company.
Now, the other side can also argue that he's just doing this for the players. Recognizing their love for a game he helped design and wants them to be able to continue enjoying that experience. That he is just a good hearted person who wants to help people that lost something, and given his past with the company gives him a good opportunity to help those that he feels should be helped.
Neither side knows what his real intentions are; however, as I first sated, people are allowed to make a decision for themselves given the things that have happened during this issue.

[Deleted]

He's out of the job. He was a former CEO who was fired from his job, potentially burning bridges/hurting his credibility with other studios. What does he have to gain?

He gets a position in a lead role over a big project. He has great influence over the design direction of said project given his veteran WoW dev status, his work history and now with his efforts to gain public support. To me, it has less to do with preserving an 11 year old game and more of him reclaiming former glory...

Former glory.

Or,

He could simply care.

We are not in a court of law where proof is necessary to make a point; rather, we are in a public forum where people can express ideas, concerns, opinions, pro or anti views, etc., based on the information we have been given or observed 1st hand.
As far as his motivations for preserving an 11 year old VERSION of a game we are still playing to this day? One can make many arguements for or against this. Going by Kern's history, a person can state that he is motivated only by becoming relevant again.

Yeah yeah. Whatever.

Prove it.

Prove it with proof. I am going to mirror your standard of proof right back at you.

Your rules.

[Thimagryn]

Mr. Kern is the best man for the job, and pretty much the only one who had the balls to go forward with Legacy on a higher level, instead of being shut down and bullied into silence by lawyers.

More has happened in the past month than in the entire past 5-6 years of people asking for a Legacy server (as far back as I remember people opening posts about it, that is). If he gets glory from it, good on him.

I respect Mark Kern. He gets things done, and he's good at what he does. That doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what he's doing, or trust in him to carry things through the way I'd like it to.

I feel like I have to explain this every time I bring up criticism, as though people think I only think bad things about him. That's not the case at all. I'm not trying to discredit him or his efforts, but when people are 'asking for evidence' and I have to point out specific cases, it ends up making me look like I'm only here to talk shit. That's why I think the entire 'you need evidence' argument only works to build strawman arguments rather than simply taking it as what it is - an opinion.

I could be here talking about how I don't like strawberries. If I had to explain why I didn't like them and 'provide evidence', it would turn my simple opinion into a statement or claim, which is completely off point.

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Former glory.

Or,

He could simply care.

Yes. Or he could simply care. Which is a completely valid opinion. Just not my opinion.

Are you ready to agree to disagree yet?

[Eleccybubb]

Kern managed to fuck up his own game because of his arrogance. You really want him in charge of Legacy servers? He pretty much just wants senpai Morhaime to notice him at this point.

[Deleted]

Kern managed to fuck up his own game because of his arrogance. You really want him in charge of Legacy servers? He pretty much just wants senpai Morhaime to notice him at this point.

Kern isn't going to be in charge of anything, he's just the messenger. He's stated a few times now on Twitter that he has no interest in going back to work for Blizzard. Does he have some other motivation for doing all of this? Probably, and it's most likely just a need for attention / publicity. I don't really care if he turns around at the end of all of this and says "By the way, buy my new boardgame!" as long as he's taking legacy servers seriously and helping us get our ideas across.

[Rafoel]

Kern managed to fuck up his own game because of his arrogance. You really want him in charge of Legacy servers? He pretty much just wants senpai Morhaime to notice him at this point.

Ok, Kern might have his own motives.

His goal, though...his goal is the same as ours. Maybe he cares only about his career. Whatever. To get what he wants, he needs to establish legacy servers, and he needs them to be succesful, or else he will be thrown to the same place he is now, and very fast.

So, I don't see a problem??

[Struggle]

This is something that's hard to explain to folks that didn't play in Classic.

The never ending debate on if Hybrids should be able to keep up with a pure, more traditional holy trinity class.

End of BC going forward answered yes to that one, but ultimately it seemed to give rise to the rampant normalization and extreme level of homoginization of all classes.


By no means am I blaming the result on what did need to happen. But there were endless threads in BC about; needing a priest for CC in KZ, LF1M mage for 5 mans, etc.

Classes need to feel unique, they did in classic. The hybrids just sucked in general because no one wanted them to be good at everything. Then add how tight some of the boss fights were (especially in Naxx), and you had a lot of frustrated classes.


So, yes, there will have to be a small amount of balancing done if Legacy servers happen. Possibly a small amount of gearing changes/additions as well. It will have to happen so 2-3 classes aren't left behind like they were 12 years ago.

I wouldn't count on it. People want to play Vanilla, TBC, etc as they were. Not modified or modernized. If you want that feel, maybe the Wrath legacy servers or newer are more your speed.

I wouldn't be against a few QoL modifications and bug fixes personally, but changing class mechanics is changing the game itself too much for my taste. Let alone the people that want NOTHING done to it, bug fixes, QoL, class changes, nothing.

It also keeps the workload simple and the request we're making of Blizzard easier, as there is no need to modify game code, just server code and BNET implementation. Easier to ask for that instead of that plus "fixing" the old games.

[Vineri]

Kern managed to fuck up his own game because of his arrogance. You really want him in charge of Legacy servers? He pretty much just wants senpai Morhaime to notice him at this point.

I sure don't want current Blizzard staff in charge .. I mean the best they are willing to do is Pristine? Oh my .. No thanks.

Yes. Or he could simply care. Which is a completely valid opinion. Just not my opinion.

Care or not care, I'd feel pretty confident saying that the major motivations behind WoW's initial 2004 release were money and recognition in the industry, with a little love for the game mixed in. It would not be surprising to have a similar situation here again with Legacy servers.

In the end, the final product is what really matters though.

[Gavan]

I sure don't want current Blizzard staff in charge .. I mean the best they are willing to do is Pristine? Oh my .. No thanks.




Care or not care, I'd feel pretty confident saying that the major motivations behind WoW's initial 2004 release were money and recognition in the industry, with a little love for the game mixed in. It would not be surprising to have a similar situation here again with Legacy servers.

In the end, the final product is what really matters though.

Acutally, a lot of the dev team came from other MMOs or with a heavy love and knowledge of them. They wanted to improve on what was currently out there with WoW. No matter my opinion of Tigole, he had passion and love for the project that showed. He was also prob one of the most open and effective communicators of that era as well.

Any guilds out there have Ion's phone number and email to be able to send him a spreadsheet analyzing why a boss is overtuned/can't be killed in this era? Pretty sure the answer to that is no.

[RickJamesLich]

Kern managed to fuck up his own game because of his arrogance. You really want him in charge of Legacy servers? He pretty much just wants senpai Morhaime to notice him at this point.

The guy stated he is retired and considering he's already worked for blizzard, what more does he have to gain? Come out of retirement? Unless we see stuff suggesting this, let's actually wait until you know.... evidence arrives. Is it that hard to believe that he's proud of his work with WoW and that he feels that blizzard's fans should be getting the game that they want?

[Eapoe]

Former glory.

Or,

He could simply care.



Yeah yeah. Whatever.

Prove it.

Prove it with proof. I am going to mirror your standard of proof right back at you.

Your rules.

I don't have a "standard of proof" as you like to call it. I just stated there is no proof for either side. There is a difference between facts and opinions, as I have previously pointed out. I try not to act in proof as it were, especially in a forum that is nothing but speculation. If you want to ask me for proof as to why the sky is blue, I'll go find the links for you.
The fact you even responded to me with this nonsense shows you don't even read people's posts completely as the last part of my post argues in Kern's favor, not against. Your response clearly shows that you got hung up on the 1st part and stopped, especially with cutting out the rest of my post in aan attempt of yours to seem relevant.
Here's the rest of the post you looked over:
and at the same time promoting his new company (which he has done on his Twitter account). A person can argue that since he had a hand in creating WoW that when this topic came up he saw a perfect opportunity to do just that, given his past with the company.
Now, the other side can also argue that he's just doing this for the players. Recognizing their love for a game he helped design and wants them to be able to continue enjoying that experience. That he is just a good hearted person who wants to help people that lost something, and given his past with the company gives him a good opportunity to help those that he feels should be helped.
Neither side knows what his real intentions are; however, as I first sated, people are allowed to make a decision for themselves given the things that have happened during this issue.

[Thimagryn]

In the end, the final product is what really matters though.

I agree. But that doesn't provide a clear picture of what that final product will be.

Mark Kern is pro Vanilla with no changes. I'm of the opinion that we can have Vanilla, but with non-gameplay quality of life options (ie toggle new models, gear swap, possibly a talent template for respec). I completely understand and respect the players who want Vanilla kept the same with few changes as possible. With him 'representing' the players though, the chances of having quality of life options will be slim.

I've already explained this with his latest dev blog shutting down the idea of 'toggle new models' despite a 42-58 split. His reasoning points towards heavy 'keep it the same' comments, a lack of 'will quit if no new models' comments, and suggesting that the whole endeavour would hurt the Legacy proposal for Blizzard. To me, I feel this poll was set up for failure. It could have been an overwhelming majority voting for new model options and you could literally use the same reasons to toss it aside. There were no arguments made for new model options, and to be honest I see no harm in implementation if it's an option; just like old player model option doesn't impact anyone else's enjoyment.

[spikeh]

If they wish to work at Blizzard, they will do the work that gets assigned to them. If they do it well they might be asked as to what they would like to work on next. There is a certain amount of choice to that given the structure of their job openings on their web site. But if someone talented walks through the door, interviews and is hired it very well may be that they may not get to choose what they do for a while. That's just how it works.

Sure, if the higher ups decide to go ahead some existing team or a newly formed team with willing volunteers/unlucky short straw drawers will get dumped with the job. No one is being hired under "vanilla porting" right now. If such a posting was available, even if it was at Blizzard I would not apply for it.

Another side of my point is: American labour is relatively expensive and Blizzard hires excellent people so their salaries are probably above gaming industry average. I doubt Blizzard want to contract the job out to some 3rd party like SquareEnix does with their 10 year old Final Fantasy ports, which will expose the internals of their IP while the main "live" product is, well, live. Things like this factor into their feasibility research.

Correct, this is how it works with most IT organizations. A lot of coders, if they're very inexperienced, actually even start in Desk Side support and move to development or management depending on talent, attitude, personality traits, how well liked they are, etc. from there.

It depends on how the corporate structure works, but most of the time, you don't get to really have much of any control over your assignments for the first 2 years that you're there.

What you said applies to graduate hires where they are probably moved around, but most experienced hires are for a particular team/project so people applying have a pretty good idea of what responsibilities they have.

I have never seen a tech company recruit from tech support. The quality of some computer science graduates can be a bit questionable already, so I'm not sure if hiring from tech support is a good business strategy. Maybe if your primary profit source does not involve software, you can have them write some scripts or macros or something. Physicists write pretty good Matlab sims at a certain defence contractor.

[AeneasBK]

Point is, it was not perfectly reasonable to fill a raid with boomkins because they weren't good, not because no one knew the mechanics. You can practice all you want, but there's a hard cap on the DPS hybrids could do and it was lower than pure dps.

But faaar faaaar higher than what is required to kill bosses, right? Or wrong?

- - - Updated - - -

But there were endless threads in BC about; needing a priest for CC in KZ, LF1M mage for 5 mans, etc.

What priest CC was needed in Kara?

The only one I can think of in TBC (didn't raid BT or Sunwell) was needing a mage for Krosh...

[T18Z]

But faaar faaaar higher than what is required to kill bosses, right? Or wrong?

- - - Updated - - -



What priest CC was needed in Kara?

The only one I can think of in TBC (didn't raid BT or Sunwell) was needing a mage for Krosh...

Shackle undead on Moroes is just one example of its importance.

[Struggle]

There were no arguments made for new model options, and to be honest I see no harm in implementation if it's an option; just like old player model option doesn't impact anyone else's enjoyment

There is harm in asking because it's extra, and frankly unnecessary work. If you're begging someone for a meal, you don't ask for a medium prime rib with a buttered baked potato and asparagus on the side. You ask for whatever food they can spare.

We're already asking a lot of Blizzard to port the old WoW versions over for us. Why ask for them to update the actual game code on top of it when the goal is a legitimate version of that game anyways? Especially if it will stop people from subscribing or stop Blizzard from considering the project in the first place?

[Rezhial]

What priest CC was needed in Kara?

We took 2 priests the first few weeks for Moroes. What a bitch of a fight.

[AeneasBK]

We took 2 priests the first few weeks for Moroes. What a bitch of a fight.

Fair cop, we had 2 Holy Paladins for most of Kara so we were just turning them, chaotic but got the job done. Forgot about them

[Thimagryn]

There is harm in asking because it's extra, and frankly unnecessary work. If you're begging someone for a meal, you don't ask for a medium prime rib with a buttered baked potato and asparagus on the side. You ask for whatever food they can spare.

If we're begging for a meal, why did he put the option for a full prime rib meal on the table?

If it's extra unnecessary work that he's already evaluated as harming the chances of legacy, why even bother polling it. This is something he brought up, and when the poll shows 42-58, he then brought up arguments against it.

[Deleted]

I don't have a "standard of proof" as you like to call it. I just stated there is no proof for either side.

Great. That settles the argument then.

If someone is going to accuse Kern of profiting from this, then they need to provide proof.

Since no one can provide that proof then it is nothing but speculation. If anyone wishes to state an accusation as fact, then their claims will be discounted.

Your rules.

Hopefully we can advance this discussion. I have great respect for Blizzard, even if we don't always see eye to eye.