Scandinavia Isn’t A Socialist Paradise

[Deleted]

http://thefederalist.com/2015/08/11/...list-paradise/
Many leftists hail Scandinavia as a socialist haven that demonstrates the inferiority of capitalism. Presidential candidate Bernie Sanders recently declared that the United States ought to emulate Scandinavian countries because they provide education and healthcare “for free.”

There are many problems with this line of thinking. For one, it is fallacious to claim that a system that works for homogenous countries like Finland and Norway would also succeed in a massive, diverse country such as the United States. For another, it is incorrect to refer to Scandinavian countries as “socialist,” given that no Scandinavian countries nationalize their means of production.

It's just the basic socialist trait of trying to steal credit of developement that someone else worked and paid for.

Social democracy, while far from actual communism (and even that solely due to the fact that they can't get the majority of votes and can't perform an armed revolution either), is placing a steadily increasing stress on the private sector though. Socialists love to tax people, but at the same time they are doing everything they can to harass private enterpreneurship that is the initial source of all wealth -- their beloved taxes included.

[Deleted]

Oddly enough the lesson from something like that should probably be that one ideology isn't inherently superior and if done correctly it can be quite succesful. I know that is hard concept for a lot of people to understand that their political affiliation, isn't blessed by the divine and isn't a universal constant of moral and ethical superiority.

The US should could likely run both systems, and in both cases it could end up being horse bollocks or an actual improvement.

[Orbitus]

Feels like every week someone makes a post to redefine the word "socialist"

Its the Federalist. What do you expect from a right wing news source.

[zebreck]

While it's true that both are capitalist, I greatly prefer the 'socialist' implementation of capitalism to the casino version the U.S. is currently sporting.

[Forogil]

One of the reasons it is incorrect to refer to countries like Sweden as “socialist” is that these countries were once far more progressive than they are now. The Economist says Sweden was once a “tax-and-spend” economy in which author Astrid Lindgren (of “Pippi Longstocking” fame) was required to pay more than 100 percent of her income in taxes.

More than 100% in marginal taxes which was stupid enough - not more than 100% overall.

In some ways, Sweden is now less progressive than the United States. Harvard professor Gregory Mankiw writes that the wealthiest decile of Swedes carries 26.7 percent of the tax burden. In The United States, the figure is a whopping 45.1 percent.

That is one of the most bizarre measurements of how progressive a country is - since it is reduced by reduced income differences.

People normally use Gini-coefficients to measure income and/or wealth-equality - and that shows a different story; especially after taxes and transfers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ncome_equality

However, similarly as for taxes it could be that there is a sweet spot for that as well. However, the Gini-coefficients indicate that both the US and the Scandinavian countries have increased income inequality since the 70s.

Finally, and perhaps most surprisingly, Sweden’s public education system is ranked lower than that of the United States. According to the OECD, Sweden ranks 30 of 37 in math and 24 of 37 in reading. The United States, meanwhile, is 27 of 37 in math and 25 of 37 in reading. Norway and Denmark are both ranked better than the United States, but not by much. These realities destroy the pervasive myth that “socialist” Scandinavian schools are the best in the world.Despite what Sanders might believe, educational institutions in Sweden are not superior to those in the United States. Sweden’s high tax rates have not ensured educational excellence, and many Swedes likely pay the equivalent of college tuition for their children in the form of taxes anyhow.

It's normally Finland that is praised for their education (at least primary). I don't understand why Finland was skipped in this section.

Regardless of the facts presented here, socialists like Sanders are sure to continue citing Scandinavia to support their narratives. If you happen to encounter such a person in real life, however, consider reading them this from The Economist: “Yet three deeper factors should give Social Democrats everywhere pause for thought. The first is that [Swedish] voters seem to value competent government above ideology.” Perhaps it is time for Americans to do the same.

Would be a good idea in every country. And it seems the choice in the US is a senator that haven't achieved anything politically, a rent-seeking business man (yes, some of us read 'The Economist') that haven't done anything politically, and a scandal-ridden former first lady.

[Thepersona]

It's just the basic socialist trait of trying to steal credit of developement that someone else worked and paid for.

Social democracy, while far from actual communism (and even that solely due to the fact that they can't get the majority of votes and can't perform an armed revolution either), is placing a steadily increasing stress on the private sector though. Socialists love to tax people, but at the same time they are doing everything they can to harass private enterpreneurship that is the initial source of all wealth -- their beloved taxes included.

there's something called marginal tax rate. it's important for you to know it. and no, real socialism is nothing like that. why the hell US people cannot get it. scaldinavian economies are social democracies. in a real socialist state, the means of production are controlled by the government or the people

[W1sp]

In Sweden if you make more then around 2k dollars per year (yes year) the tax is ~33% + 25% VAT + arbetsgivaravgifter which is around 120 crownS per hour if I am not mistaken (correct me if I'm wrong) which is a tax the employer pays for hiring you. The marginal tax rate for a low income swede is around 62% which is alot higher then that which is written in the article.
With kind regards
A swede

[Deleted]

Scandinavia might not be a socialist paradise, but at least it provides better living for its citizens than America. The American Dream is long done... it is now Danish.
Gotta love how some Americans have a raging boner about dissing the Scandinavians, in every possible way.

I don't know if it is because of Bernie Sanders and his social democracy ideals or the refugees in Sweden, but these kind of threads have been popping out more frequently than ever.

[Aggrophobic]

Americans a bit jealous? You should be. Best countires to live in, no contest.

[Santti]

While Scandinavian countries are not exactly socialist countries, I'd argue they are still one of the most socialist countries there are. Don't think a proper socialist country actually exist.

Finland isn't a Scandinavian country.

Correct, although it's somewhat understandable why it's often (erroneously) included. Geographically, it is part of Scandinavian Peninsula. Plus, the nordic countries sometimes advertise themselves under the banner of Scandinavia. It also doesn't help organizations like http://www.amscan.org/ (American-Scandinavian Foundation) lists Finland as a member, and then uses Scandinavia and Nordic countries pretty much synonymously.

[Deleted]

I'm sure Kelly McDonald from The Federalist knows a hell of a lot about Scandinavia and Finland (which, as said, is not a part of Scandinavia.)

Kelly is a college junior majoring in political science. She enjoys studying political events as well as philosophy, and has won several writing awards for her fiction and nonfiction work.

Yup. Looks and sounds like a real expert to me, with years and years of experience.

But hey, that's what you get these days. People just grab some random blog by some random blogger child, say it's all fact and call it a day.

[Rumblemintz]

In Sweden if you make more then around 2k dollars per year (yes year) the tax is ~33% + 25% VAT + arbetsgivaravgifter which is around 120 crownS per hour if I am not mistaken (correct me if I'm wrong) which is a tax the employer pays for hiring you. The marginal tax rate for a low income swede is around 62% which is alot higher then that which is written in the article.
With kind regards
A swede

But you will get all of that back in taxes at the end of the year? I pay 25% taxes on my income of less than 1000 USD per month here in Finland (I am a student getting my free bachelors), but I get every single penny back at the end of the year. And to be honest having lived in the United States, Northern Virginia, a majority of my life; I know you pay federal, state and then local taxes (property tax, gas tax, sales tax, etc.). Which equals to be just about the same as rest of E.U. countries but you don't get the same benefits not even close.

[Deleted]

Geographically, it is part of Scandinavian Peninsula.

No it's not. A fly shit -sized spec of Finland might be a part of the geographical peninsula, but Finland as a country most definitely is not.

[Forogil]

As a person living in Norway, I can tell you that your numbers are wrong, and you are misinformed.

Income tax in Norway - is 28% for below median incomes. If you make more than 60K a year (which is the median) - this rises quickly to 36-40%. In addition, we pay 25% VAT on all merchandise, groceries etc. A few years back it was calculated that the average Norwegian, pays around 50-60% of their income - in taxes. Denmark rates at aprox the same level as us, Sweden has a litlle less tax-preassure.

It seems that a major difference compared to the US is that the actual taxes people pay are close to the official tax-rates.

And Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland are also a lot more free trade than Sanders and Trump (at least that was my impression and http://www.borderlex.eu/wp-content/u...05_2014_11.jpg confirms it - except that there is no data for Norway).

[Santti]

No it's not. A fly shit -sized spec of Finland might be a part of the geographical peninsula, but Finland as a country most definitely is not.

You will find two versions when it's googled. Finland being as a whole is a modern thing.

[Deleted]

If it weren't for our slightly off immigration politics we would be a ''utopian'' society.

[Deleted]

You will find two versions when it's googled. Finland being as a whole is a modern thing.

Yeah of course you find a lot of misinformation on the interwebs, but that's why we keep correcting people and pointing out that Finland isn't a part of Scandinavia, so that at least that particular piece of bullshit misinformation stops being spread.

[Selastan]

Isn't Socialist Paradise an oxymoron?

[Theinquisition]

More than 100% in marginal taxes which was stupid enough - not more than 100% overall.


That is one of the most bizarre measurements of how progressive a country is - since it is reduced by reduced income differences.

People normally use Gini-coefficients to measure income and/or wealth-equality - and that shows a different story; especially after taxes and transfers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ncome_equality

However, similarly as for taxes it could be that there is a sweet spot for that as well. However, the Gini-coefficients indicate that both the US and the Scandinavian countries have increased income inequality since the 70s.


It's normally Finland that is praised for their education (at least primary). I don't understand why Finland was skipped in this section.


Would be a good idea in every country. And it seems the choice in the US is a senator that haven't achieved anything politically, a rent-seeking business man (yes, some of us read 'The Economist') that haven't done anything politically, and a scandal-ridden former first lady.

Finland was mentioned later on in the article.

[Deleted]

Finland was mentioned later on in the article.

It's a blog post. By some barely legal random blogger chick. It's not "an article".