1. #48181
    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    It's not about nerfing specific champs, but rather itemisation and burst via talents. There's just so much power outside of a champion's kit. There's so much power even before you begin to itemise, and when you do, it scales and becomes completely ridiculous.
    Nerfing the items and talents also affects the Champs who are just fine with them too. Usually worse than it it affects those the nerf was originally aimed at. Nerfing tank itemisation is just going to force tanks out of the meta entirely, as a role they come and go largely based on the strength of their items. Ekko and Fizz would be forced back into their intended Assassin builds and would keep performing well, it wouldn't really "fix" the problem at all.

    Realistically Riot needs to take another look at Ekko's kit and decide if him being an Assassin is the best fit, unfortunately if they do they're going to upset players by forcing him out of one of his builds. He's not the only one, Diana could really use another pass too, as could Akali, Fizz one or two other outliers. AP Melee update when?

  2. #48182
    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    It's not about nerfing specific champs, but rather itemisation and burst via talents. There's just so much power outside of a champion's kit. There's so much power even before you begin to itemise, and when you do, it scales and becomes completely ridiculous. Let's not even mention Rengar. It used to be the case that only very few select champs could 100-0 someone in less than 2 seconds and that also required a select buildpath and usually being not really viable in late game. Now everyone does it, if you are not building tanky. It's ridiculous. Thunderlord's does not help as well. I don't get why their solution to the problem of lol in some champs having ridiculous burst like LB or Eve was to give everyone the same burst.
    Items and masteries should never be nerfed to balance a few champions (or more this season), because nerfing those items would render the champions that are OK with them useless again.
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    The 10% reward. It's was unspoken rule that you DONT attack other faction so everyone could enjoy the 10% reward. But now no one cares about that anymore

  3. #48183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    It's not about nerfing specific champs, but rather itemisation and burst via talents. There's just so much power outside of a champion's kit. There's so much power even before you begin to itemise, and when you do, it scales and becomes completely ridiculous. Let's not even mention Rengar. It used to be the case that only very few select champs could 100-0 someone in less than 2 seconds and that also required a select buildpath and usually being not really viable in late game. Now everyone does it, if you are not building tanky. It's ridiculous. Thunderlord's does not help as well. I don't get why their solution to the problem of lol in some champs having ridiculous burst like LB or Eve was to give everyone the same burst.
    I think you have a valid point. Lately I've been put off with league more and more. Reasons being; the current meta, itemisation and constant fixing crap that don't need fixing all for the sake of playabillity and clarity. That and bullshit talents that make some annoying champions almost impossible to deal with. I'm fine with a full AP Fizz one-shotting me but a full tank Fizz with Unyielding Grasp and a Iceborn Gauntlet as his only damage item doing almost the same is just complete bullshit. While still being as slippery as AP Fizz is. I mean, come on! Unyielding grasp Yasuo mid is just as bullshit, although I find that a bit easier to deal with. Also the QSS nerf really pissed me of. Besides Zhonya's it was the only item that could keep champions like Zed in control. Now? Yeah, have fun playing ADC. Unless you get some godlike peeling and your support happens to have Exhaust up. You are not going to survive that. (I don't play ADC mind you, I still find it bullshit). Ohh and who saw the almost pre-nerf kassadin ban status on reworked Malzahar not coming? *raises hand*.

    I don't know, recent changes really puts me off the game lately. That and dynamic queu. I don't queu alone anymore. All my games where I queu'd alone have been terrible even the few ones I won were an terrible experience. And when I queu with others or even with just me and one other person I have a 15-20 minute queu 8/10 times. Rito dun goofed.

    Edit: Most talents and Items should not be nerfed for the sake of nerfing a select few champions because it would make said champions ''balanced'' it would put all the other champions that could make that talent/item work back into shit tier. At this point I don't even care if they Olaf'd some champions. Yes, the salt is very much real.
    Last edited by mmoca91367db85; 2016-05-13 at 06:02 PM.

  4. #48184
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    I thought Dynamic Queue would be a good idea initially, I'm completely against it now too. It was a mistake, they need to just roll it back.

    I'm definitely down for an AP Melee rebalance wave though - Evelynn / Diana / Elise all need some tweaks, and all fall under that category.
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  5. #48185
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Kindred is really a jungler, not an ADC - despite being a ranged AD marksmen.

    Part of the reason is her jungle-camp clearing and roaming mechanics require her to be all over the early map to steal camps, scuttles, gank top/mid, etc - an ADC would lose too much farming being MIA that often trying to counter-jungle the enemy camps, or ganking the wrong lane (if your team was good, you could lane swap, but that'd just blow minds and make people rage below Platinum).

    She would also have some issues dueling in lane - while her ganks are pretty strong - she can't stand toe-to-toe versus virtually any ADC until she has her stacks: so either she can roam enemy jungle and fall behind in lane, or she can stay in lane to farm and flee from every trade (and lose lane control or lose farm to turret). She really has to jungle.

    Fortunately, while she has a high skill floor, she also has a high skill ceiling - and so good Kindred junglers can be mildly overpowered: and she's only going to get stronger with this patch, as the Bloodrazor buffs benefit Kindred more than virtually any other jungler. She's likely an S or at least A tier jungler this coming patch.
    Thanks for your awesome input, very well said! That gives me a great idea of how she is played ^_^
    Since I love to jungle, I think I'll be trying her out then! Not sure why I had to support some kindred's when they picked ADC and chose her, it honestly never turned out well -- but I am guessing they just didn't know any better and wanted to try her out as an ADC or something. And I will especially try and get good at playing her the next patch :3

    Thanks for the great advice!

  6. #48186
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    Just wanna say Kindred isn't a her or him, its a They. :x

  7. #48187
    Quote Originally Posted by Priestlie View Post
    Edit: Most talents and Items should not be nerfed for the sake of nerfing a select few champions because it would make said champions ''balanced'' it would put all the other champions that could make that talent/item work back into shit tier. At this point I don't even care if they Olaf'd some champions. Yes, the salt is very much real.
    Ive always thought that. Its much better to have worthless champions than overpowered champions. Overpowered champions make it so they must be banned or else they heavily skew the game in one teams favor. If a champion is just garbage nobody picks them and it has no effect on the game, like they didnt exist. This isnt WoW where people are heavily invested in one specific person, its relatively simple to pick up anyone new and use them.

  8. #48188
    Quote Originally Posted by Priestlie View Post
    I think you have a valid point. Lately I've been put off with league more and more. Reasons being; the current meta, itemisation and constant fixing crap that don't need fixing all for the sake of playabillity and clarity. That and bullshit talents that make some annoying champions almost impossible to deal with. I'm fine with a full AP Fizz one-shotting me but a full tank Fizz with Unyielding Grasp and a Iceborn Gauntlet as his only damage item doing almost the same is just complete bullshit. While still being as slippery as AP Fizz is. I mean, come on! Unyielding grasp Yasuo mid is just as bullshit, although I find that a bit easier to deal with. Also the QSS nerf really pissed me of. Besides Zhonya's it was the only item that could keep champions like Zed in control. Now? Yeah, have fun playing ADC. Unless you get some godlike peeling and your support happens to have Exhaust up. You are not going to survive that. (I don't play ADC mind you, I still find it bullshit). Ohh and who saw the almost pre-nerf kassadin ban status on reworked Malzahar not coming? *raises hand*.

    I don't know, recent changes really puts me off the game lately. That and dynamic queu. I don't queu alone anymore. All my games where I queu'd alone have been terrible even the few ones I won were an terrible experience. And when I queu with others or even with just me and one other person I have a 15-20 minute queu 8/10 times. Rito dun goofed.

    Edit: Most talents and Items should not be nerfed for the sake of nerfing a select few champions because it would make said champions ''balanced'' it would put all the other champions that could make that talent/item work back into shit tier. At this point I don't even care if they Olaf'd some champions. Yes, the salt is very much real.
    Adc have Sterak Gage, defensive items, Guardians Angel, and Teammates to deal with zed. One of the reason zed is so problematic is because he's balanced with Qss negating his ult in mind. I think the changes are a dumb idea during an active season and should have been saved for next pre-season. They tried the same idea with grievous wounds because Soraka and like 2 other champs were the reason it was so problematic but they couldn't dedicated the time to fix it. Why you would wait for the start of the summer split and the mid year mage update to test this change, I have no idea. Worlds is in like 3 months and this is the time to try to balance Quicksilver Sash?

    It's a needed change but at the wrong time. My favorite part is they're thinking about reworking Guardian Angel into a counter for Fiora, Zed, Fizz, and Trundles ultimates but isn't that why you're changing Qss... The fuck?
    Last edited by Varvara Spiros Gelashvili; 2016-05-14 at 05:24 AM.
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  9. #48189
    Over 9000! Duilliath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foo Foo Cuddlypoops View Post
    Adc have Sterak Gage, defensive items, Guardians Angel, and Teammates to deal with zed.
    Yea... No.

    Sterak's has been nerfed heavily exactly because ADCs were using it. Guardian Angel has a massive cooldown - far longer than Zed's Ult. Those -are- the defensive items. An ADC building a Randuin's Omen instead of an IE -still- will not be able to survive and might as well not be playing due to how much less damage he's doing. And counting on team mates in solo queue where the Zed isn't quite thus encumbered... No thanks.

  10. #48190
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    Exactly. I completely agree with what Duilliath said. Zed on its own has gone through multiple buffs and nerfs (mostly nerfs) just to compensate for how save he can assassinate a squishy without Zhonya/QSS. Zed had a clear win/lose condition. You either win before everyone gets one of two items or become useless late game, well not exactly useless he still does shitloads of damage regardless and lets be real here. It's not like QSS is build as a first or second item on ADC's. Most of the time it isn't anyway. Zhonya's does get rushed early but that happens with every AD assasin mid as you simply need the armor to survive a simple trade let alone a Zed ulting you.

    And yeah, changing the game like they did in the middle of the season is just a stupid idea. I guess we have to roll with the punches.

  11. #48191
    Quote Originally Posted by Duilliath View Post
    And counting on team mates in solo queue where the Zed isn't quite thus encumbered... No thanks.
    Its especially problematic at lower levels of play, you need team mates who are better at dealing with Zed than Zed has to be to kill an ADC and get out alive. Assuming the matchmaker is working properly, that should pretty much never be the case.

    Depending on your teams picks, you might not even have anyone who can keep Zed in check should he decide he wants to kill you. He can dodge skill shot CC with his W and Ult, so to reliably land it you need to wait for him to already be murdering someone. Point and Click CC is limited to a small selection of champions. As awesome as Braum, Thresh and Taric are now, they've all got a delay on how soon they can help you out with him which is all the time Zed needs to kill you and get to safety.

    He's also running rampant because some of his biggest counters are also some of the least played Champs right now. Kayle has a really low pick rate, despite her higher than normal win rate, and both ruins Zeds game in lane and out. Tahm Kench is a great big "Nope!" everytime Zed wants to kill someone near him. Cho'Gath and Rammus' CC is long enough to leave Zed stuck auto attacking throughout his ult and gives him the choice of either getting some damage out or getting to safety. None of them are really popular at the moment.

  12. #48192
    Quote Originally Posted by Priestlie View Post
    Exactly. I completely agree with what Duilliath said. Zed on its own has gone through multiple buffs and nerfs (mostly nerfs) just to compensate for how save he can assassinate a squishy without Zhonya/QSS. Zed had a clear win/lose condition. You either win before everyone gets one of two items or become useless late game, well not exactly useless he still does shitloads of damage regardless and lets be real here. It's not like QSS is build as a first or second item on ADC's. Most of the time it isn't anyway. Zhonya's does get rushed early but that happens with every AD assasin mid as you simply need the armor to survive a simple trade let alone a Zed ulting you.

    And yeah, changing the game like they did in the middle of the season is just a stupid idea. I guess we have to roll with the punches.
    Seems like riot is just experimenting to experiment and it's slowly killing my ability to enjoy the game.
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  13. #48193
    QSS is so toxic. I honestly think they should just remove it, and stick with Cleanse.

  14. #48194
    Banned docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Still Rampant Rabbit View Post
    QSS is so toxic. I honestly think they should just remove it, and stick with Cleanse.
    SLOW DOWN! adc's already want to off themselves.

  15. #48195
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    SLOW DOWN! adc's already want to off themselves.
    I don't care. An item that can completely destroy a champion's kit should not be in the game.

    I'm honestly surprised that Riot hasn't introduced an item with Tenacity that would be viable for an ADC yet.

  16. #48196
    Quote Originally Posted by Still Rampant Rabbit View Post
    I don't care. An item that can completely destroy a champion's kit should not be in the game.

    I'm honestly surprised that Riot hasn't introduced an item with Tenacity that would be viable for an ADC yet.
    Going by that, we'd have to get rid of Zhonya's too. It's more or less the same effect, just for AP champions.

  17. #48197
    Banned docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Still Rampant Rabbit View Post
    I don't care. An item that can completely destroy a champion's kit should not be in the game.

    I'm honestly surprised that Riot hasn't introduced an item with Tenacity that would be viable for an ADC yet.
    Tenacity is not a useful stat on ADC. If they get hit by any type of hard CC that's a death sentence when vs gold+, they need to get that CC off of them ASAP, not have it reduced .3 seconds.

    Riot also doesn't like the idea of giving ADC's defensive items that also give some offensive stats. Look at what they did to gage and maw.

    What champ are you talking about anyways?

  18. #48198
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow the Edgehog View Post
    Going by that, we'd have to get rid of Zhonya's too. It's more or less the same effect, just for AP champions.
    Not quite. Zhonya's prevents damage/cc. QSS deletes it. Zhonya's requires timing. QSS requires you to press a button when you failed to avoid getting hit by something.

    EDIT: Actually, I wouldn't mind a Zhonya's AD equivalent being added to the game. Not at all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Tenacity is not a useful stat on ADC. If they get hit by any type of hard CC that's a death sentence when vs gold+, they need to get that CC off of them ASAP, not have it reduced .3 seconds.

    Riot also doesn't like the idea of giving ADC's defensive items that also give some offensive stats. Look at what they did to gage and maw.

    What champ are you talking about anyways?
    I'd say that Tenacity is very useful in the long run. While you don't notice the effect immediately, it will be able to effectively reduce the total time spent in cc.

    How many occassions have you had where you were CC'd, and you just needed to get out of it .xx seconds earlier to be able to avoid your death? That's where tenacity matters, and will have an impact on your gameplay.

    If you get caught in cc and you get killed, you should be. That's the punishing facor hard cc should have, and is also what makes positioning so much more important.
    Last edited by Rampant Rabbit; 2016-05-16 at 08:28 PM.

  19. #48199
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Yea I don't even know why they let Vlad go live - when they had Repetoire (the dev who designed new Vlad) on their stream demonstrating him in a couple matches, he literally went something like 1:11:2 on him. He was the only person in the world who knew how his new kit worked at that point, everyone else should have been at a disadvantage - and surely the other Rioters knew the point of the game was to make Vlad not look like total shit: and yet the dude got wrecked over and over (and it didn't seem like a skill gap, mistakes were occurring on both sides).
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  20. #48200
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilz View Post
    Seeing Vlad's winrate now makes me glad I didn't even have any hope that Riot's idea was anything other than stupid. Really sucks that I liked both Vlad and Swain and now they're the two worst champions in the game alongside Cassiopeia by a landslide.

    Really the only way they'll ever recover is if Riot just reverts the changes done to them and I don't think Riot has even done that before. The only way they'll be good in their current situation is if the numbers on their abilities are just broken op.

    I think Riot should stick to reworking just one champion at a time, because whenever they do a bunch at once the quality feels low. I like Garen but the Villain idea was horrible and I don't think anyone needs to explain why Morde got screwed.
    I'm very disapointed with what they did with Anivia too, she was one of the two midlaners I actually liked playing. Having her ult increase in size as its channeled feels like it defeats the entire purpose of the spell, by the time its at full size anyone you wanted to hit with it is long gone. When you want to use if to wave clear it leaves a sizeable chunk of mana missing from your blue bar before its even big enough to hit the creeep wave, people like Zed can comfortably outpush her now due entirely to her ults ramp up.

    I get what they wanted to do with it, reward you for trapping someone with a wall and forcing them to walk through your ult while you land an easy stun into some heavy burst damage from your E, but in practice thats too unreliable to pull off consistently, especially given the vast number of ways people can jump over your wall to safety. Now I find its more feasable to lead in with a stun, then place your ult under them and follow up with an E and a Wall to keep them in your ult as long as possible, its a small change that has completely altered how the Champ plays. They've removed a lot of her reliability in exchange for a very situationaly more powerful ultimate, and its put me off playing her entirely.

    As for Morde, he was in a bad spot before his rework too. I'm not actually sure he's any worse off for it, but he's not better off thats a given. He has a similar problem to Vlad and Swain, he's either an unkillable monster or an easy kill with little in between, and champs like that are always balanced by their numbers more than anything else. Unlike those two Morde is all melee so he's got the additional weakness of being easy to kite. Trying to get him to be an ADC seemed like a good solution at the time, since he'd ideally be teamed up with someone like Leona or Alistar who could lock down a target for Morde to murder. They really just need to take him back to the drawing board and start again from scratch with him.

    The main focus of the juggernaut rework was, I believe, to give them all mini-games to play, they really did succeed with Morde on that one, now more than ever since he can collect all the dragon colours of the rainbow. It shook things up, but did little to address any of their real issues.

    I don't think doing a bunch of champions at once is, always, bad however. The Marksman update was reasonably sucessful on the whole, it helped in defining which of them does what and cleared up a couple of outstanding issues with champs like MF and Quinn. I'm fine with the idea of ADCs being able to go to other lanes than just bot, it opens up a lot of picking options for your team. I'd hoped they could keep up the trend with the Mage update, but its been a very hit and miss update overall. Brand and Vel'Koz feel like they came out of it slightly better off, Malzahar is crazy good, everyone else feels like they got bashed over the head repeatedly with the nert bat.

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