1. #4981
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyons View Post
    What Blizzard ACTUALLY said what that a spec like Ret that has very low mobility should have different strengths to offset this weakness.
    We don't.

    We don't have strengths.
    We have weaknesses, which are yet to be offset, in any way, shape or form.

    Being able to cast HoF on a teammate once in a while is no strength
    Being able to hardcast FoLs is no strength aswell

    But having no selfdefence, no dispel protection, no combat healing besides said hardcasting, no means to get to target, these are just a few weaknesses we have.
    I am yet to be educated and enlightened how can any sane person, moreso a "professional" developer of such scale as WoW devs surely are, might view anything we currently posess as enough of a strength to offset anything of the weaknesses I mentioned above.
    And I didnt even list a half of or gone into detail or spoke about talents or traits.


    That is why we are assuming Ret SHOULD HAVE been compensated through more damage and defences.
    Last edited by Morally Grey Storm; 2016-05-13 at 09:58 PM. Reason: Notaker_-_Infinite

  2. #4982
    Deleted
    Most speccs have some kind of utility, at least the ones, with only "one-dd-specc" as far as I know.
    Blizzard seems to try to balance classes around three pillars: Damage, Defence, Mobility. Defence could mean multiple things.. meaning Damage reduction, immunities, Anti-CC capabilities, healing.
    As far as I have seen most speccs have two strong and one weak pillar. Demon Hunters are very mobile and are doing high damage, but they are weak when it comes to Anti-CC and defensive options (some things are quite OP at the moment and will never go live this way.. but I've read multiple times, that DH is weak to CC.). Windwalker Monks are very mobile and are doing good damage, but their defensive isn't that strong as well and their costs a lot of DPS. I've seen healing discussions in other hybrid-alpha-threads where people felt weak at self healing compared to Ret.
    You could say "people think, we will have strong Damage and Defense because we lack mobility, because the bluepost said so!" and there you are right. He didn't say that directly. But if classes are balanced around these three pillars with two of them stronger and one of them as a weakspot.. then we could assume, that we will have quite strong damage and better defensives.
    Overall the new design seems to try to get people into more group play than before. Enhancer, Windwalker and Marksman could improve mobility of other classes. And this is why they are balancing around these "three pillars" and giving speccs different utility to make other ones stronger in their weak spots.

    Don't get me wrong.. I know we haven't arrived at the spot I've talked about, yet. But I think this is where they want to get to.

  3. #4983
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Ret doesn't have decent mobility. It has anti mobility and while that might work in PVP. PVE, wise it won't mean shit unless the boss or elite or w/e is affected by it. I believe Blizzard is wrong with the whole weakness part. We are a DPS, so OF COURSE we should have competitive DPS. That's just obvious, that shouldn't offset low mobility because we are melee. Our damage won't mean jackshit if we can't get close to them. Even if we had one ranged attack like Exorcism.

    Even if we had Pursuit of Justice baseline(Which honestly I think we should, it certainly helps and it thematically fits very well). I don't disagree a class/spec should have a weakness of sorts but it can't be crippling to where we don't even have a fair chance of fighting back.

    As for @ruiizu: If we are to have a no CD ability, I would be ok with Crusader Strike. I mean it helps make the rotation fluid. I'd also note, spamming Crusader Strike wouldn't be an issue because that isn't the best way to do damage either. If Blizzard doesn't like the no CD thing..well they put us in this position.


    End rant: One Anti movement spell is not mobility. It's anti mobility against an opponent. SoL is problematic to even use at the moment because you're trying to do damage by generating HP to use a finisher under Judgement Smash mechanic. Divine Steed doesn't last long and well thematically it's still weird to call upon a horse every so often.
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  4. #4984
    I still see Frost DK's hitting harder than Ret come live, I also notice they have more ways of sticking on a target. Maybe I'm wrong, most likely not.

  5. #4985
    Quote Originally Posted by Ciric-Wildhammer View Post
    I still see Frost DK's hitting harder than Ret come live, I also notice they have more ways of sticking on a target. Maybe I'm wrong, most likely not.
    You are, there's hardly any reason to talk about numbers atm since the first tuning pass has hardly even started. This is why you see a good percent of people in here talking about gameplay mechanics wise, not numbers wise.

  6. #4986
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    We don't.

    We don't have strengths.
    We have weaknesses, which are yet to be offset, in any way, shape or form.
    That is why we are assuming Ret SHOULD HAVE been compensated through more damage and defences.
    This I completely agree with, I've just seen multiple posters claiming Blizz have stated they want us to be high damage + high defence, when they have never mentioned any such thing.

    I'm very much with you in calling it total BS. I'm just rebuking (pun intended) the people taking it easy because they assume we are going to do loads more damage than other more mobile melee - we won't. We'll be lucky to do top tier damage even if we can sit on a target which is HIGHLY unlikely.

    As for PvE the spec is screwed as well. Being able to holy pony every now and again is useless in fights with high movement, you need the consistent movement that Long Arm of the Law or a low CD charge gives for adds swaps, or a leaping boss, or a rotating platform etc etc etc.

    Here's a thought for raiders. SoO Blackfuse, Ret on conveyor belt with only legion mobility tools. Just imagine it. Or Lei-shen with the thunder focus pushing you off the edge faster and faster.... Or Mythic Franz and Hanz in Blackrock, or Iskarr with the winds illusion or ANY fight where you have to stay on your toes for more than 4 seconds...

    Sorry but low mobility as an intentional design is just ridiculous from top to bottom in a game like wow. Some specs having superior mobility is fine, but every spec needs a certain baseline level to function and this Ret no longer has.

  7. #4987
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyons View Post
    This I completely agree with, I've just seen multiple posters claiming Blizz have stated they want us to be high damage + high defence, when they have never mentioned any such thing.

    I'm very much with you in calling it total BS. I'm just rebuking (pun intended) the people taking it easy because they assume we are going to do loads more damage than other more mobile melee - we won't. We'll be lucky to do top tier damage even if we can sit on a target which is HIGHLY unlikely.

    As for PvE the spec is screwed as well. Being able to holy pony every now and again is useless in fights with high movement, you need the consistent movement that Long Arm of the Law or a low CD charge gives for adds swaps, or a leaping boss, or a rotating platform etc etc etc.

    Here's a thought for raiders. SoO Blackfuse, Ret on conveyor belt with only legion mobility tools. Just imagine it. Or Lei-shen with the thunder focus pushing you off the edge faster and faster.... Or Mythic Franz and Hanz in Blackrock, or any fight where you have to stay on your toes for more than 4 seconds...

    Sorry but low mobility as an intentional design is just ridiculous from top to bottom in a game like wow. Some specs having superior mobility is fine, but every spec needs a certain baseline level to function and this Ret no longer has.
    This is something I have argued in the past and what I was trying to get at before is IF (if being the keyword here) they want to go this low mobility route something has to happen, high damage being one of them. Why? Because how the hell else are we going to make up lost dps with downtime caused not by rotation but mobility. This led to many thoughts about Crusader Strike not having a CD, Judgment duration buffed etc etc so on and so forth because its like they are adamant about this design being pushed and so the feedback has to be what make its work. But if you guys want to give feedback on how the design over all is just horrifically bad and wont work in a raiding environment let alone pvp go ahead all the more power to you/cookies and blessings. What we see now is 100% ludicrous. My whole bit about talking about low mobility juggernauts was simply because the only way you gonna get this spec to work is by that with this design. Otherwise fix the damn spec, it broke yo.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyons View Post
    Every Ret here seems to be under this false apprehension.

    No, Blizzard have never said this. Everyone THINKS blizzard said this, but it was an assumption the players made.

    What Blizzard ACTUALLY said what that a spec like Ret that has very low mobility should have different strengths to offset this weakness. Not damage and defences, but STRENGTHS. The discussion was centred around support utility when the blue posted, not more damage or tougher defences.The whole playerbase just assumed that Blizzard meant Ret would do more damage since it couldn't be as mobile, and this is just nonsense and very likely won't happen.

    In Blizzard's eyes Ret has Freedom, 'offheals' and Hands : 'group support.' Which is meant to offset the mobility loss. Which it doesn't of course, but you have to understand that is Blizzard ridiculous understanding of the spec.

    If you think that when legion goes live Ret will be doing way more damage than other melee while being hard to kill you're living in a dream world.

    Our damage will most likely be middle of the pack, and our defences will be dismal as they always are.

    There, I hope this clears up the THEY WANT RETS TO BE SLOW JUGGERNAUGHTS nonsense that has been floating around here for ages.
    Didnt see this part, I hope the above post I did clarifies a few things.

  8. #4988
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    I think some of the problem comes from the fact that you can have degrees of strength / weakness. When warriors can have double charge, heroic leap and bladestorm, then there's quite a large gap between "zero mobility" and "equal to warriors" that Ret can fill, and yet still have mobility as a weakness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyons View Post
    Here's a thought for raiders. SoO Blackfuse, Ret on conveyor belt with only legion mobility tools. Just imagine it. Or Lei-shen with the thunder focus pushing you off the edge faster and faster.... Or Mythic Franz and Hanz in Blackrock, or Iskarr with the winds illusion or ANY fight where you have to stay on your toes for more than 4 seconds...
    For what it's worth, I've done all those fights on Mythic with Pursuit of Justice and been basically fine. I used Speed of Light on Thok in SoO though.

    For Legion though, Seal of Light just doesn't compare. An extra 5% speed is nice of course (though it's 10% less than maxed out MoP- and WoD- style Pursuit of Justice, I'd be fine with the baseline +15% speed from Pursuit of Justice), but look at the cost: all your Holy Power for 20 - 100 seconds. Urgh.

    = + =

    In other news, Swifty's streaming ATM on the pre-made PvP beta realm: "our team's getting wrecked at the moment IT'S BECAUSE THEY HAVE A RET PALADIN!" ... yeah he's exaggerating and all that (in fact it's a DK and the over 9,000 DHs wasting his team, though the Ret is 2nd on damage), but you wait until others do that for real on the forums :P .

    = + =

    Edit: Also, why is it "Seal of Light" anyway? Seal of Light's been the healing seal since day 1 pretty much, and now it's a... movement speed boost?

  9. #4989
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post

    Also, why is it "Seal of Light" anyway? Seal of Light's been the healing seal since day 1 pretty much, and now it's a... movement speed boost?
    Because Lothar's Might.
    you figure out the rest

  10. #4990
    Thank you @Solsacra for that post on the beta feedback!!!

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...3696321?page=2

    "It's worth noting that this continues to be true, just from the opposite direction :P. Instead of having a debuff that became irrelevant through increased uptime, so to does it become increasingly irrelevant as the number of targets increases when Judgment can only be present on one target.

    On it's own, i'm fine with the concept of Judgment, but i'm obviously not a fan of how it currently impacts our gameplay. Judgment is far too restrictive to be interesting at the moment (or more importantly, i'll invoke the all encompassing buzzword 'FUN'), the target swapping penalty is pretty stiff in conjunction with the single target restriction. One of the two needs to be reined in. We all know they won't budge on Mastery. So i think what i suggested here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...5401?page=3#56 should be acted upon. For those who don't like links, this is the meat of the concept:

    Rework Mastery to increase the damage of Judgment by X%, and increase the damage of Templar's Verdict and Justicar's Vengeance by X% while Judgment (Justice, w/e) is active
    Allow the Judgment buff to increase the damage of ALL Holy Power consumers by 20%, 25%, 30%, or whatever value is appropriate. As to provide a meaningful hook for Judgment in AE scenarios.
    Rework Greater Judgment to, instead of chaining Judgment to multiple (uncontrolled) targets, extend Divine Judgment (Mastery) to Divine Storm.


    With the above considered as a suggestion, I'll restate that I don't think the gameplay that Judgment brings should be solely predicated on how our Mastery interacts with it. The stat should be held as a separate entity that complements the existing design. A line needs to be drawn between them. Mastery can continue to be Single Target based outside of talents, while Judgment continues to provide a flat scalar hook for all Holy Power consumers. Of course some things would need to change, as i already pointed out. Like the effect becoming a buff, no longer chaining with Greater Judgment; and Mastery only applying to ST abilities outside of GJ. I think, in a general sense, that the overall gameplay of the spec would improve immensely if this would be true. And would serve to further distinguish Judgment from Colossal Might, which to be blunt, is a blatant copy/paste."

  11. #4991
    Deleted
    Is Lobster, Reg? I get this feeling. Trying to do damage control on the predictable bad reception to the spec by beta players.

    Ruiizu, i could hug you for having mentioned the old vengence FX for the judgement buff. I would be so happy if that happened! Very happy to see your voice added to Solsacra's there. Gives more weight to the urgency.
    Actually i gotta say your post was spot on. I share similar views. Cheers for that.
    Last edited by mmoc80be7224cc; 2016-05-14 at 06:03 PM.

  12. #4992
    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    And what will be there then?
    Free win for the other team, like we are now =)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciric-Wildhammer View Post
    I still see Frost DK's hitting harder than Ret come live, I also notice they have more ways of sticking on a target. Maybe I'm wrong, most likely not.
    I agree with you, about the sticking on target part (numbers are too early to say), but DKs historically had decent ways to be able to stick to a target, not the best in game but way way better than Ret's, DK can peel in PvP pretty well GD/ice chains/pet stun/ silence or stun, what can Ret do? HoH + hoj both can be dispelled

  13. #4993
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    For what it's worth, I've done all those fights on Mythic with Pursuit of Justice and been basically fine. I used Speed of Light on Thok in SoO though.
    Yes, so have I but Pursuit of Justice is actually good, that's my point. I used to deliberately stack it to max before movement phases so my baseline movement speed was so high it could stalemate the pushbacks just as well as druids being able to displacer, monks being able to roll, rogues being able to sprint etc. This was thematically fitting in my view too, the Ret simply empowering his body with the light to break the bounds of normal human abilities.

    In legion however Pursuit of Justice is gone, so we have no passive modifier, just a 4 second boost, which will fall short on a LOT of mechanics in PvE nevermind arena.

    Imo Pursuit of Justice or Long Arm should replace Seal of Light. Why do we have to spend resources on something that was always baseline for us, and remains baseline for most specs?

  14. #4994
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Oh I agree it should be baseline, my point is just that I think Ret will be able to do most Mythic fights in Legion with Seal of Light. Obviously having to pick that all the time leaves an awful lot to be desired for a whole bunch of reasons, but... I think we'll be able to make it work, is my point.

  15. #4995
    I've been seeing a few video replays of players trying ret on beta....god it looks aweful; (granted they are not using judgement correctly all the time, nor making full use of blessings), but the cleaving talents+divine storm was doing crap aoe dmg, they are taking 30seconds-minute killing easy trash, getting easily knocked down to low hp and flash of light is burning your mana pool in 3 casts and you healing for no where near even half your hp for it. the player literally burnt her manapool then sat to eat to replenish the remainder.

    can someone do a rundown of how much flash of light heals for exactly and how much more effective it is once you get artifact traits for it?

  16. #4996
    Deleted
    Lobster brings in an interesting point there , and he is correct that the better the gear becomes the better the rotation will become.
    Ironicly the question now is - will it actually?

    This is the remaining question here and it is actually a funny one considering the whole Mass Judge debate.

    You see. Either we will simply ignor haste as much as possible , like we are doing currently , or not. Seems simple but bear with me.

    So since Mastery is our beast of Burden and not only strongest secondary stat but also a major part of our playstyle this will be inevatibly our go to main stat.
    But both haste aswell as mastery have a good synergie with it.
    Haste decreases the CD of shit and thereby we can have more hard hitting Finishers ,
    and Crit let's our Finishers be even more nastier as they are to beginn with.
    And since the Secstat DR is a thing we will inevatibly have at least to some higher extend many of these stats there.

    The actuall question here is: At what points will the DR actually start to affect things in a significant way?

    You see the whole Judge and Mass judge thing is ..... retarded in the long run.
    Why? You see. In one of Thetes Videos i've noticed something interesting - namely the levels of his secstats.
    He has with Ilvl 803 20% Crit , 44%Mastery ,8% Haste and 2% Versa.
    Obviously the main stats on his gear are Mastery and then crit with a bit haste mixed here and there.

    But now , Mythic gear has Ilvl 905.
    So if we can get 8% haste with none haste focused gear , we could get easily 20-25% Haste within the first conent - more or less.

    And with that: 20% Haste decreases the CD of Judge by about 2sec , the Talent Mass Judge decreases it by a further 2sec. That means that even some relativly small amount of haste we can lower the CD of Judge down to 8 seconds - which has a uptime of 6 seconds.

    So in actuallity in the long run we will most likely get the older effect of Mass Judg per baseline and since the current Greater Collosal Judge is the supririor , and in most fights more practicle , Talent we will be running with it for the most fights.
    And with that comes the fun part.
    At some point and time the whole Colossal Judge playstyle with the windows of oppurtinity will become irrelevant as a playstyle because we can get a virtually 100% uptime with it anyway.
    Sure target switches will still be a bitch but still , i find it quite amusing tbh.

    And seeing that Haste brings in a big gain for our AE and cleave aswell , more so than Crit and Probably even mastery , haste will still be a valuable secstat for us.
    And even if theory crafting will tell us that we should run with Mastery/crit , the DR will force us at one point to take haste.

    But there are two other things here.
    The Talent SecWrath messes with that whole around quite a bit , which is a gain and loss in and off itself. Because with about 20% Haste we can easily Take DP as a valid Talent choice there and seeing that TV litteraly is about 40% or our overall DPS this will be a very valid choice indeed for many fights.Especially because it also brings in a more versatile AE option for us with it's ST component over the course of a single fight.
    SecWrath on the otherhand will be a huge mess combined with a smaller higher amount of haste and we could have close to 100% Haste - which will compete with itself on a Theorcrafting basis - i think that at least.
    But in any event. If i am correct both Talents are both good Talent choice by themself and can fill two very practicle roles for Raiding and PvP.

    The second thing is. In a historicle sense , we have one , no, THE greatest variable as a unknown currently. Namely our Tier Boni. For most times in history these where not only where strong , but the thing that made us playable in the first place. And we have no idea what it actually is.
    But keeping the trend in mind it will have something to do with Finishers most likely.

    TL`DR : Ironicly the effect of the old Mass judge will be a thing relativly fastly and we can proccede to ignor the whole Judge thing to a rather high extend in many cases.

    This is just another stone upon the monument of the nonsense the whole Judge gameplay is.
    Last edited by mmoc38da49be1a; 2016-05-14 at 02:54 PM.

  17. #4997
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zartorus View Post
    Lobster brings in an interesting point there , and he is correct that the better the gear becomes the better the rotation will become.
    Ironicly the question now is - will it actually?
    .
    It's a flawed PoV to begin with. You can compare it to fire mages and fury warriors not working properly in WoD until they get a certain ammount of crit. Blizzard is fixing that for them. But here comes the Ret lobster saying its ok. Nah... it's not. It's broken. A spec should flow and work well from the off-set. Not after you get X ammounts of haste to make it more bearable. We get about 5% haste at entry level gear. I doubt that will make any difference at all.

  18. #4998
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    It's a flawed PoV to begin with. You can compare it to fire mages and fury warriors not working properly in WoD until they get a certain ammount of crit. Blizzard is fixing that for them. But here comes the Ret lobster saying its ok. Nah... it's not. It's broken. A spec should flow and work well from the off-set. Not after you get X ammounts of haste to make it more bearable. We get about 5% haste at entry level gear. I doubt that will make any difference at all.
    Thing is even in WoD, that was an issue. Yeah it got mostly solved but still not an excuse. Just bad design. "Oh just wait for better gear levels."


    Honestly that mindset is just stupid and feels like an excuse. So I feel the pain, Lobster makes me want to punch an Fel Imp.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  19. #4999
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    It's a flawed PoV to begin with. You can compare it to fire mages and fury warriors not working properly in WoD until they get a certain ammount of crit. Blizzard is fixing that for them. But here comes the Ret lobster saying its ok. Nah... it's not. It's broken. A spec should flow and work well from the off-set. Not after you get X ammounts of haste to make it more bearable. We get about 5% haste at entry level gear. I doubt that will make any difference at all.
    Well, I'm sure you know where I stand by now so I'm not going to repeat it, but Lobster has been a ret paladin for an extremely long time and this isn't the first time he's been in an alpha/beta providing feedback, so saying "here comes the ret lobster" isn't exactly..not really sure how to word it. Nice? I dunno. Here's the thing, Lobster is semi correct with haste helping the rotation. It's definitely true, and it's already been shown that it's true but it depends on how haste works for us. I agree with what Solsacra said, that's basically where I stand.

    I agree that a spec should flow and work well from the off set and hopefully they listen to feedback and fix it so ret can be. No, the haste when first starting at level 100 doesn't help, it only gets better towards the higher levels when you can acquire gear with haste. Until then, it's slow and doesn't flow that well. I absolutely hate the fact that certain specs are absolutely amazing with their class trinket but without it they aren't complete. It's absolutely ridiculous that this is still a thing. I do disagree with Lobster's opinion of equality, it's situational yeah but it's promotes shitty game play and goes against everything people have been taught for years which is to stay out of fire.
    Last edited by Taeldorian; 2016-05-14 at 06:41 PM.

  20. #5000
    Deleted
    For the misguided few fans of equality here you go:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yBJjsXvqR0

    It's gonna get nerfed to the ground pretty soon. I have said this would either be useless or OP. Many on the alpha/beta forums have pleaded how this would never work... and shock and awe... it doesn't. This will get nerfed and we will have a dead 100 talent. Good feedback ftw eh? Oh but it's so much fun! Seriously...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    Well, I'm sure you know where I stand by now so I'm not going to repeat it, but Lobster has been a ret paladin for an extremely long time and this isn't the first time he's been in an alpha/beta providing feedback, so saying "here comes the ret lobster" isn't exactly..not really sure how to word it. Nice? I dunno. Here's the thing, Lobster is semi correct with haste helping the rotation. It's definitely true, and it's already been shown that it's true but it depends on how haste works for us. I agree with what Solsacra said, that's basically where I stand.

    I agree that a spec should flow and work well from the off set and hopefully they listen to feedback and fix it so ret can be. No, the haste when first starting at level 100 doesn't help, it only gets better towards the higher levels when you can acquire gear with haste. Until then, it's slow and doesn't flow that well.
    I couldn't care less how long hes been a Ret. I expect some sight especially if he is a long time Ret. Not beeing an apologist leaving Ret is a bad place. What he is doing is unproductive and he is making it worse for all of us. Therefore i will point out where he is misguided, just as i applaud those that give good feedback.

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