[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[-Skye]

do you like current mobility Ret has? - forget about it, you will be as mobile as a fething onelegged cancer-infested cripple .
do you like current team utility Ret has? - forget about it, HoSac goes away, aswell as all offhealing potential, 2 charges on Hand spells along with HoPurity.
do you like current hybrid range/melee Ret has? - forget about it, you are going to be so fething melee arms warriors will weep they were as melee as we are going to be.
do you like current rotation Ret has? - forget about it, you are arms warrior now, without the benefits but with crappy damage dealing window, retarded HoPo which for obvious reasons are removed from Prot/Holy but not from Ret.

Do you get the picture?

Yeah.. so what class is everyone else jumping ship to, until Ret hopefully gets fixed :P

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Personally I'm be enduring. It's going to be a pain in the ass but I'll endure. Doesn't mean I accept what happens. I'd reccomend Ele shamans though

[Cien]

do you like current mobility Ret has? - forget about it, you will be as mobile as a fething onelegged cancer-infested cripple .
do you like current team utility Ret has? - forget about it, HoSac goes away, aswell as all offhealing potential, 2 charges on Hand spells along with HoPurity.
do you like current hybrid range/melee Ret has? - forget about it, you are going to be so fething melee arms warriors will weep they were as melee as we are going to be.
do you like current rotation Ret has? - forget about it, you are arms warrior now, without the benefits but with crappy damage dealing window, retarded HoPo which for obvious reasons are removed from Prot/Holy but not from Ret.

Do you get the picture?

we've got to make a compromise for having ashbringer tbh

[Taeldorian]

Yeah.. so what class is everyone else jumping ship to, until Ret hopefully gets fixed :P

Did you come in here just to ask that? I haven't seen you here before. Going prot (still paladin) until ret gets fixed because I love the class a lot, put all of my time I had with wow into it, etc.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Yeah.. so what class is everyone else jumping ship to, until Ret hopefully gets fixed :P

I'm thinking switching to new Heroic Class of IWontPlayThisShit

we've got to make a compromise for having ashbringer tbh

No.

[Deleted]

Short question into the round:
All that "waiting"-mess and fluidity/speed discussion comes from "waiting for Judgement and stop your rotation if you have 5 HP". After some testing it seems to be a DPS loss to wait and do a "fullstop" instead of using a TV without the buff sometimes. IF that situation occures we actually have the tools ready to build up HP fast enough to use Judgement. Especially when using BoW.
This way, even with just 4-5% haste (pvp 110 premade) the rotation is fluid and you don't have to wait often. I mean.. it IS a DPS loss to have two CS charges, BoJ/BoW and Wake of Ashes ready and delaying them because we have to wait, isn't it?

I don't know.. I don't like the new system as well, but I fear they won't change much now. So it is more important to make them change some problems in our new design: AoE-Judgement-Interaction, Mobility as the two biggest concerns I personally have.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Hey Animefreak or reg care to explain how am I supposed to cast HoF on my teammates if I am immobile as feth
you are beta-tosters afterall bless me with your insight

teach me how to enjoy being a slow, slow, so very fething slow kiting target practice dummy
please

[Alindra]

2. Thete with his crappy gear in Legion has 20% crit already. But with about 20% Haste we could bring Judge , with Greater Judge skilled , down to 8sec CD.
If we can get haste down to 30% without having too much of a DR , maybe even within the first content without forgoing a reasonable amount of mastery , we will have practicly a 100% uptime of the Judge debuff.
3. Do you see , not only you but all people here , how this entire concept is flawed to beginn with? The very start in Legion will be just a pain in the motherfucking ass , but once got even a small amount of gear the whole thing changes back to the brainless one we are having right now.
So whats the entire point then there? Judge after the first 2 month will become virtually irrelevant in a active way and we can spam Judge once it comes off CD and we won't even suffer any downsides from it.
4. Crit is just as good as haste the way i see it. Seens it , while it doesn't do shit for our playstyle , it synergizes quite nicely with Mastsery itself. And since everything we got are big hitters crit will be very handy indeed there. And after the 20% , maybe even 30% , haste mark , haste won't do that much for us anyway. And once again , seeing how quickly we can get that shit. This once again begs the question : What is the point in there?

Somewhat i assume the current Greater Judge will be removed , or at least the 2sec reduction , once people got the whole idea about how utterly retarded this whole concept is.

Just think about this for a second. Without gear it is a pain in the ass in any way shape or form. But with halfway less shit gear the whole thing becomes irrelevant.

I have to point out, @Zartorus, that you're doing your haste calculations wrong. Having 50% haste doesn't mean your cooldowns are halved, it means you can get 50% more of them in the same period of time.

In other words this is wrong (haste being a decimal, so 50% haste is 0.50):
FinalCD = BaseCD * (1.0 - haste)
8 = 10 * (1.0 - 0.2)

This is correct:
FinalCD = BaseCD / (1 + haste)
8.333 = 10 / (1 + 0.2)

This is also how the GCD reduction is calculated, which is why our 1.5s GCD becomes 1.0 at 50% haste (1.5 / (1.0 + 0.5) == 1.0)

It requires an incredible amount of haste to get the Judgment debuff to be permanent. It has a 6s duration and 12s cd baseline. Baseline that would require +100% haste, and with Greater Judgment it would require 66.666% (repeating of course...) haste. Outside of Sanctified Wrath and/or Heroism, I don't see that happening. I'm not trying to discount that haste smoothing things out, but we'll always have to keep an eye on when we hit TV (well, any finisher really) to ensure we don't hit it during the few GCDs that Judgment is down.


I can understand why they redesigned Ret with a goal of making buttons more unique (right now all our fillers are essentially damage and build HP), but the system they've come up with just doesn't hold up to their intended (moment of opportunity) gameplay. If you guys remember, initially they planned on preserving the moment by having the duration effected by haste to enforce it at all haste levels, but ended up deciding against it.

At this point I'm just disappointed with where we currently sit and the lack of responses to our core concerns - namely Judgment issues (target swapping, AoE, and mobility) and mobility. (I have other reservations, but if the core was addressed, I'd feel better.)

[Deleted]

I have to point out, @Zartorus, that you're doing your haste calculations wrong. Having 50% haste doesn't mean your cooldowns are halved, it means you can get 50% more of them in the same period of time.

In other words this is wrong (haste being a decimal, so 50% haste is 0.50):
FinalCD = BaseCD * (1.0 - haste)
8 = 10 * (1.0 - 0.2)

This is correct:
FinalCD = BaseCD / (1 + haste)
8.333 = 10 / (1 + 0.2)

Wait wa? I know that i rounded things down but i did the calc. right and we arrived at the same level. So where am i wrong there i don't quite follow you there.

If you mean, that i mean that, with 20-30% or so we get to a litteral 100% uptime. What i meant with that 100% uptime is that we have it up 100% of the time where we need it . The two seconds in between are not that big of a deal considering everything there.

Maybe this is because i'm tired and such i am not getting quite yet what i have done wrong there. But we arrived at the same level so?
With 20%Haste we get to 8sec Judge CD with the Greater judge Talent , it has a 6sec uptime so we can have it virtually all the time we need it and thereby we can just use it , exept in some exeption every once and a while , and just use it on CD.

[Coffeh]

Watching Bajheera use Equality in arenas is comical, at least. That'll get nerfed.

[Alindra]

Wait wa? I know that i rounded things down but i did the calc. right and we arrived at the same level. So where am i wrong there i don't quite follow you there.

...

Maybe this is because i'm tired and such i am not getting quite yet what i have done wrong there. But we arrived at the same level so?
With 20%Haste we get to 8sec Judge CD with the Greater judge Talent , it has a 6sec uptime so we can have it virtually all the time we need it and thereby we can just use it , exept in some exeption every once and a while , and just use it on CD.

Ah, you rounded? So to be clear you calculated 8.333s and just chopped off the 0.333 part off? I'm not sure, because you reiterated 8 seconds flat in the second highlight passage.

The reason I'm focusing on this is there is a big difference between 8.333s CD and 8.0s CD. The former requires 20% haste and the latter requires 25% haste. In other words, it requires 25% more haste to attain that. That's a big jump to ignore because of rounding. If you did get 8.333s, then I'd say you should have at least kept the first decimal - then you would've been in the same ballpark!

If you mean, that i mean that, with 20-30% or so we get to a litteral 100% uptime. What i meant with that 100% uptime is that we have it up 100% of the time where we need it . The two seconds in between are not that big of a deal considering everything there.

I won't argue the point you can "close" or "effectively" permanent uptime. I can be a bit focused on details at times. :P

[Lumineus]

Watching Bajheera use Equality in arenas is comical, at least. That'll get nerfed.

Hope not. Any less and it fails to do its job of deterring/retaliating against focus fire.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Wait wa? I know that i rounded things down but i did the calc. right and we arrived at the same level. So where am i wrong there i don't quite follow you there.

If you mean, that i mean that, with 20-30% or so we get to a litteral 100% uptime. What i meant with that 100% uptime is that we have it up 100% of the time where we need it . The two seconds in between are not that big of a deal considering everything there.

Maybe this is because i'm tired and such i am not getting quite yet what i have done wrong there. But we arrived at the same level so?
With 20%Haste we get to 8sec Judge CD with the Greater judge Talent , it has a 6sec uptime so we can have it virtually all the time we need it and thereby we can just use it , exept in some exeption every once and a while , and just use it on CD.

It's not going to be pretty, I can say that. Silver Lining though, there's a lot more discontent in the feedback thread.

[Borgia]

Hope not. Any less and it fails to do its job of deterring/retaliating against focus fire.

Watching Bajheera use Equality in arenas is comical, at least. That'll get nerfed.

Just watched the vid of bajheera. I bet equality is getting nerfed in the next beta build. It's a retarded ability which is either useless or overpowered with no middle ground.

[Taeldorian]

Hope not. Any less and it fails to do its job of deterring/retaliating against focus fire.

Didn't you see the thread that was complaining about rets being ridiculously OP in Arenas? Every single person in that thread was like "lolequality". They already said they're aware of this and they will fix it. I can probably grab the thread for you if you want but it's called "whats wrong with rets?" if you wanna see all that for yourself.

This is a pretty weird spot to be in, but I agree for sure. If equality isn't doing what it is right now than it won't work. Any less and it'll be discarded because it won't be worth it.

[Ulthane]

Didn't you see the thread that was complaining about rets being ridiculously OP in Arenas? Every single person in that thread was like "lolequality". They already said they're aware of this and they will fix it. I can probably grab the thread for you if you want but it's called "whats wrong with rets?" if you wanna see all that for yourself.

This is a pretty weird spot to be in, but I agree for sure. If equality isn't doing what it is right now than it won't work. Any less and it'll be discarded because it won't be worth it.

This goes back to something I said a LONG time ago. Equality was going to be one of two things: VERY stupid bad or VERY op. There IS no middle ground for such a talent. Reading the last few things here I can see you all see the same thing and have for a while.

But you know I have to ask a major question here on a what if scenario with mechanics... stuns and targets immune to them.

What if you could lets say use Hammer of Justice on a target but they are immune but get a debuff on them that treats them as stunned but not stunned. For purposes on abilities that deal more damage when target is stunned Ala Justicar's Vengeance?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I was kinda thinking maybe a talent that turns your stun into a damage attack. I mean you lose a stun but you get another attack to use.

[Deleted]

What if you could lets say use Hammer of Justice on a target but they are immune but get a debuff on them that treats them as stunned but not stunned. For purposes on abilities that deal more damage when target is stunned Ala Justicar's Vengeance?

Remember my Hand of Argus talent a while back? That's usually what they do, for PvE viability and PvP balance reasons. Doubt they'll implement such a mechanic just for the sake of JV

[Ulthane]

Remember my Hand of Argus talent a while back? That's usually what they do, for PvE viability and PvP balance reasons. Doubt they'll implement such a mechanic just for the sake of JV

Would be cool :<

[Taeldorian]

What if you could lets say use Hammer of Justice on a target but they are immune but get a debuff on them that treats them as stunned but not stunned. For purposes on abilities that deal more damage when target is stunned Ala Justicar's Vengeance?

What you're saying is, you use HoJ on someone but they're immune, afterwards they get a debuff on them that acts as if they were stunned, but they actually aren't? Sounds interesting, would be weird to balance and it would also be a bit awkward with DR (diminishing returns), might even end up being OP at one point. Let's say you stun someone 3-4 times in a row with a poly thrown in and maybe a cyclone or two, you're going to hit DR which is when you would want to use your stun so they'd be immune which somewhat extends the DR system in our favor. I think it would work well with the abilities we have, but it'd require a lot of balancing because it comes in contact with the DR system.

It does sound like an interesting concept, though.