Should you know your class in pvp to be a good raider?

[fiestatastic]

not at all. They're totally different games practically, with different add-ons, macros, and the skills you need to work on for either (being smart about cc chains for pvp, being smart about when to use cd's and spells for pve) don't really correlate.

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Is the other way around.

yeah this is definitely the other way around, from what I've experienced

[Jinxz]

nope. PvP does require more brain power though, you have to know every single class' abilities, what they do and how to counter them. As a raider you only have to know the class you're playing.

[Irefusetodie]

There is nothing that you can learn from PvP that will help you with PvE. A large portion of mobs in a raid environment can't be CC'd to begin with, let alone require a chain of CC. There's no spell juking in PvE. There's no set rotation in PvP. There's no pillar humping in PvE. PvP doesn't help you learn your class any more than PvE does. You use the same toolkit for both.

[Dracodraco]

As the GM of a top end PvE guild, I don't really give a fuck about PvP experience. I've been in a leadership position in my guild since the end of WOTLK, and through all this time, exactly *one* person that quoted gladiator as part of their competences on the application they sent us has impressed me in any way. That guy is our healing officer right now.

In general, anyone else we've taken in based on good PvP experience has fallen into one of these categories:

Huge ego but with utterly mediocre performance (that's not exactly bad, it's just annoying to listen to after awhile. These guys can be just fine).

Prone to absences/has little regard for the guild as a whole.

[What I mean by this is that PvP'ers would usually be the first to "take a break" if they get bored of a tier, leaving everyone else with a weakened roster to farm (which is just shitty all around), or they would alternatively just show up when they liked and expect to get spots/loot.
I can only hypothesize that this is partly because of the fact that they're used to being in a much smaller team (2-4 other people), that can have far more fluid schedules and thus do not mind sudden absence (as long as announced), and partly because they don't understand that we strictly spend our time within those specific timeframes because that's what everyone else can do and we have to compromise.
Funny enough, they are also usually the most likely to "have a life", quoting excuses other people would see as complete bullshit such as "going to a party tonight", "going out to see a movie with friends" etc as reasons for their absence. It's good that you have a life, everyone should, but don't promise us you can dedicate the time if you'd rather spend it elsewhere. That's just not fair to anyone].

And the hidden gem that's actually good at both things and makes for a great raider that can be entrusted with special tasks such as leading part of the raid or doing special jobs (interrupts, throwing balls on sha of fear etc).

This is of course pure conjecture and just my personal experience with "Gladiators". Not everyone is going to fall into the category, and the good ones *do* exist. I am by no means knocking players that prefer PvP, but I do find the attitude that they think they can perform at a top-tier level in PvE because they can in PvP sort of... Arrogant, is the word I'm looking for I guess. Some of them can, but most of them fall terribly short; If you're one of those that think you can do top end PvE because you do top end PvP, just prove it instead of talking smack. Nobody can argue with results and evidence.

There is nothing that you can learn from PvP that will help you with PvE. A large portion of mobs in a raid environment can't be CC'd to begin with, let alone require a chain of CC. There's no spell juking in PvE. There's no set rotation in PvP. There's no pillar humping in PvE. PvP doesn't help you learn your class any more than PvE does. You use the same toolkit for both.

Not *entirely* true.

As seen here: https://youtu.be/Gb1GkVpR6Rs?t=6m56s Pillar hugging is indeed a valueable PvE skill.

[Aeowrynn]

I used to take my raiders-in-training to PVP. It used to provide some practice in reaction time, quick thinking, interrupting, dispelling... etc. BG's and arenas. It was good for new players.
(I basically had a step-up group of people who raided once a week and we worked with them to improve their skill set for the main raid team. You could do this, once upon a time. We had a few main raiders' alts plus new players.)

I don't think PVP really provides the same benefits as it once did. PVPers I've brought to a raids have spent the whole time on the floor, unable to avoid raid mechanics. This has been the case since mid-to-late Cata. I am not a serious PVPer so I am unsure what happened. I am not saying 'all' PVPers are bad raiders, just that 'most of' the ones I have trialed were.

I would say that while certain bits of raiding skill could be helped by PVPing; it's far less beneficial than it once was.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I know awesome PVPers that can't PVE for shit above LFR levels.
I know awesome Raiders that can't PVP worth a damn.

You don't nee done to excell at the other, no. You learn quick response times and shit just fine without PVP, just as you can become a top notch PVPer entirely without PVE.

[Deleted]

not at all. They're totally different games practically, with different add-ons, macros, and the skills you need to work on for either (being smart about cc chains for pvp, being smart about when to use cd's and spells for pve) don't really correlate.

That's seriously exaggerated (and this statement does not go only to you but to several others in this thread. Yes, the PvP sub-gametype does have differences like heavier use of defenses, non-adherence to strict rotations and non-adherence to strict sequences. But at the end of the day it's the exact same gametype in a form of a sub-gametype, with only the general setting changed and in reality you have the exact same abilitiies on both (more or less), they have the same or similar power to defend and attack and PvP will require faster responses to sudden changes which is something rare but valueable in PvE.

[Deleted]

No 10chars

[Deleted]

all this time, exactly *one* person that quoted gladiator as part of their competences on the application they sent us has impressed me in any way. That guy is our healing officer right now.

In general, anyone else we've taken in based on good PvP experience has fallen into one of these

All that is true I'm sure but I believe you are opening a new subject here. That subject is on the question of the percentage of PvP users that are good or could become good PvErs. That's of course different to what we are saying because I believe, at least right now in this era of the game, most PvP users are young, they are newer to the game in general or they might have less time in their hands for PvE, its time investment and/or the strict schedules it required, even if only for a few hours a week.

[Battlebeard]

Any practise, wether its PvE or PvP makes you spend more time on your class and learn it better.

Obviously not necessary if you are eager to learn by only doing PvE but it can defenitly by helpful.

PvE is ALOT more then a perfect rotation and high dps. As a Rogue, I find almost every single ability useful in PvE, even the ones many would consider "only PvP".

[DeicideUH]

Raiding is a lot about learning the fight. I do think PvP'ing helps, as you learn to react quickly and improve your survivability, but it's not required.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

You just have to know your class. Can PVP help that? Sure it can. But it doesn't nessessarily mean you absolutely have to be a 2400+ PVP player, for example, to ever really grasp raiding. It can help as long as you are able to adjust your mindset. A lot of people tend to get caught in mindset ruts though. So it could also hurt it.

[Deleted]

No such thing as good pvp-ers will slay dem pixels good, or good dragon slayers will kill dem players good.

All we got are good players, and good players will do well at both, maybe not equally well, but well indeed. Those that excel at one but suck at the other, are not the good players they think they are.

[Deleted]

You don't have to be good at one to be good at the other.

That said, being good at PvP doesn't hurt. Being a good PvPer means having a solid grasp of your class/spec. You're also playing against real people and you need to be able to respond to quickly changing situations, which is also good for PvE.

Being a good raider means you need to have your rotation down and understand strategies for boss encounters. The boss fights are scripted, but you're still working with a group of players and people can be unpredictable. They can make mistakes. Depending on the encounter and what happened, you may be able to recover from somebody's mistake or compensate for it and finish the fight if you're good.

If there's 1 thing PvP and PvE have in common it's that both require practice and experience. You can be a top notch raider but if you've never set foot in an arena or BG before, you're probably going to suck at first. Simple as that. Same goes for PvPers who have never set foot in a raid - their PvP skills are unlikely to help them work with other players as part of a team or fulfill a role or do a job in the raid. When you raid it's less about personal glory and more about being a cog in the machine.

So yeah, while it doesn't hurt to be good at PvP it does not say anything about how good or bad you might be in PvE.

[Borgia]

Lol @ people saying a good pvp player won't do well at pve. Slaying dragons is a child's game for a multi-gladiator player that probably has twice faster reflexes than any top pve player.

[pkm]

Lol @ people saying a good pvp player won't do well at pve. Slaying dragons is a child's game for a multi-gladiator player that probably has twice faster reflexes than any top pve player.

Here we have an example of the pvp trash talker stereotype. Thank you for your help.

[Borgia]

Here we have an example of the pvp trash talker stereotype. Thank you for your help.

Here we have an example of the salty pve hero stereotype when told the truth. Thank you for your help.

[DarkspearNeverDie]

A "good" raider is a nobody. So to answer your question, no, you don't have to be knowledgeable about your class in PvP to be a "good" raider.

To be a "great" raider and beyond, you need to have knowledge of your class in every aspect of the game, otherwise you're not "great".

Those that excel at one but suck at the other, are not the good players they think they are.

QFT /10char

[Deleted]

Here we have an example of the pvp trash talker stereotype. Thank you for your help.

His wording was horrible, and he might not be great for a raiding guild for that reason, but, he does have a point that in his words, "a multi-gladiator player" who is there legitimately is very unlikely to not be a great PvE player if he wants to actually be one eventually.

[Flurryfang]

Not really but it helps. Being alright at pvp shows that you know your character a lot. Its the same with the Brawlers Guild. You don't have to have completed the Brawlers guild, but if you have, it does show that you can get the most out of your character.

Talking MoP brawlers guild ofcourse.