Arms Legion Discussion

[Murlocbait]

Won't they re-tune it to the point where its worth using MS over slam anyway? or execute as well? I don't think we can expect any mechanical changes but I do think that they won't want us to drop everything else just to slam to get our csmash back.

My worry is that they will decide that the easiest way to do that is to nerf the holy fuck out of Slam, so that using it over any other lit up button is a DPS loss, even when trying to fish for the next reset. That was their solution to the CC tier, remember - nerf it to the point that it no longer is a factor in damage, but instead simply provides a secondary function that you ONLY want it for.

not really, stabing someone randomly with 2 knives is less critical than doing it in the heart with 1 knife.

In fairness, the person you quoted said "if all else is equal," which means 2 knives to the heart vs 1 knife to the heart. I personally like that they focused on TG, since it is something unique to Fury and I don't think Fury should lose something unique just so Arms feels better. If Arms played properly and was really fun at every level of play, it wouldn't matter. Just wanted to point out that you didn't really argue against what the person you quoted said.

[Celarent]

Here you have my kill of Krosus Heroic (closest to patchwerk this tier), my CS up-time can be found here

Again, thanks. Patchwerk-style is perfect clarity.

--

Reading through today's beta feedback, I was struck by Bigbazz's description of the design flaw that may drive away the most players:

you know those moments where you need a CS reset in 5 seconds for priority and 20 seconds later you're still spamming Slam trying to reset CS by which time it's too late and then 30 seconds later you see 4 CS resets within the space of 10 seconds? Yeah that's not fun.

I'm wondering if anyone has suggested this. If so, dang. If not, maybe it's simple and gentle enough to dev egos to be implemented as late as it is:

1. Reduce Colossus Smash's CD to the traditional 20 seconds
2. Allow Colossus Smash to accumulate 2 charges (eat it, Zierhut)
3. Reduce base Tactician chance slightly to preserve overall uptime goal (don't panic)

This should do the following:

1. Spares players the worst of Tactician's randomness
2. Structures burst windows around a familiar and balance-proven interval
3. Provides control and insurance for saving Colossus Smash for priority
4. Raises skill ceiling with well-timed, extended Colossus Smash windows
5. Doesn't disrupt the existing design too much

I can dream, right? At any rate, that was cathartic.

[Breccia]

Just want to point out that he's the spokesperson

a) I think most of us are upset with the team in general, not just Celelstalon

BUT

b) When he, specifically, calls on Arms to have a civil discussion after condescendingly telling us we are the far extreme of knowledge and skill, then vanishes for eleven months
AND
When he, specifically, calls on Brewmasters to learn to fucking play

then he deserves every ounce of hate coming his way, specifically. The anger is not misplaced and you know it as well as everyone else.

[Reapocalypse]

Well-summarized, well-written! Celestalon the egomaniac \spit! His post "We like how Warriors play at the moment..." was absolutely retarded. Who cares whether Celestalon likes it or not, it's all about us, the players!!!
This spreadsheet guy is a cancer for WoW, a deaf horse with blinders. He likes his product but the majority of the players don't. Holinka also gets a honorable mention on this topic. So unprofessional! And he is getting good bucks for it! Does he design the game only for himself to play it? If so Blizzard should let us know so that we don't waste our time with this game.

You got our support, go ahead with this "x isn't fun and here's why," format. Success! You can do it, I believe in you! Maybe there are still some reasonable people in the designer team who read in players' feedback seriously.

Have to disagree on Holinka, even tho he is sometimes very deaf (Blizzcon rules, could be not his decision tho) he seems to be somewhat active on the PvP Alpha Forum and is listening, Spell Reflect / Intervene was implemented a few builds after we asked for it, or the PvP dummy that is coming soon.

[Deleted]

2. Allow Colossus Smash to accumulate 2 charges

OMG this is the greatest idea ever... maybe even make it sub 35% and 3 charges

In execute phase, you would end up fishing for full charges and then unleashing your massive opening trough 3 CS window. after that fishing for another 3 charges

Give this man a cookie.....

[GemaRawr]

CS doesn't need charges. We need power shifted away from CS and into the rest of the rotation, as well as giving tactician a slightly higher chance to proc. This would allow CS to continue to be a major part of our gameplay while letting us be at least remotely useful outside of it.

Having CS being stronger than most(all?) DPS cooldowns in the game might seem great, but because of Tactician it just means that the rest of our abilities have to be trash to compensate. This means that unlucky streaks with Tactician leave us in the dust. It also means that we are pretty worthless when switching to a new target if we can't get a reset for 20 seconds. Even if we have fairly good CS uptime on Patchwerk style fights, we are punished way too much for any time we spend away from a target because of the long cooldown Colossus Smash has without constant Slam spam.

[Chain Chungus]

I don't agree with this.

Charge is meant to be an engagement ability, not one you use rotationally for rage; in fact that's anti-thesis to it's point as mobility
I disagree. The minimum range also prevents it from being a true mobility ability. I can't charge to a second enemy because he is 7 yards away? It is pointless.

Minimum ranges aren't archaic at all,
Yes they are or hunters would have never had them removed.

Arms doesn't have it's own defining characteristic.
It doesn't have a defining characteristic because Fury stole it and made it twice as good.

At any rate, I don't believe that hurting one spec is the solution to making another feel better; that just sticks you with the opposite problem of Fury lacking identity.
It doesn't hurt Fury they have always been a 1H class first. It was 1H all the way up to Wrath. If anything, it simply rights the wrong done to Arms by adding it in the first place.

Bolded my responses.

[Archimtiros]

Bolded my responses.

If you're going to respond, don't do it inside a quote with my name attached; it gives a false presumption that they are my words, which they are not.

[Accendor]

I finally was able to play beta and I have a big problem with rage generation. I want to play with Overpower, so I did not specc Dauntless and the Specc is already driving me nuts. It's like a can not fill every third or fourth GCD because I am rage starved. I even specced Stormbolt just to have SOMETHING to use when I am out of Rage but it doesn't really help.
It all gets better of course as soon as I specc Dauntless but even with that I have rage problems and missing every fourth to fifth GCD because I am rage starved.

From what I feel all my problems will be gone if I skill Mortal Combo and manage to acquire this item: http://beta.wowdb.com/items/137060-archavons-heavy-hand
However without it the whole concept seems really "broken" to me in the same way fury is currently broken on Live when you are not HFC equipped.

Has someone else this massive rage problems?

[chooi]

Has someone else this massive rage problems?

Honestly, no.

Running with Dauntless, though.

Make sure to not use Whirlwind on Singletarget. Maybe that's what ragestarving you. And spam Slam. A lot.

[Accendor]

I am only using Slam, CS and MS, nothing else.

Edit: At the current point I am also very unsure why there is a Artifact talent at all that gives you +30 maximum rage when you never even come close to 50 rage.

[Warriorsarri]

Rage is a non-issue above 20% assuming you play correctly.
Never use MS unless you have a Shattered Defenses proc up
Overpower (if speced) is the single highest priority, after CS (If no CS up)
Use CS whenever it procs, even if CS is already up
Heroic Charge if you have low rage and can't fill the global
Slam if all above is non-applicable.

[chooi]

Rage is a non-issue above 20% assuming you play correctly.
Never use MS unless you have a Shattered Defenses proc up
Overpower (if speced) is the single highest priority, after CS (If no CS up)
Use CS whenever it procs, even if CS is already up
Heroic Charge if you have low rage and can't fill the global
Slam if all above is non-applicable.

Yeah, it's actually sad that we have to ignore MS for the most part and just spam Slam instead. I guess it's especially problematic for seasoned Warriors because we are used to press MS as soon as it comes off CD. That's not how it works in Beta currently.

PS: @Warriorsarri: you were right. Arms does get better with gear. It's still terrible, though...

[Accendor]

Rage is a non-issue above 20% assuming you play correctly.
Never use MS unless you have a Shattered Defenses proc up
Overpower (if speced) is the single highest priority, after CS (If no CS up)
Use CS whenever it procs, even if CS is already up
Heroic Charge if you have low rage and can't fill the global
Slam if all above is non-applicable.

Hi,
well, that is exactly how I try to do it and still I am rage starving.
I even created a short video (2 minutes) for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcdZ...ature=youtu.be
As you can see even with dauntless I never even get close to 50 Rage and have trouble filling all GCDs (I even miss some), with Overpower I miss much more.
What am I doing so wrong that both of you tell me "rage is a non-issue" and I am still wondering why we have a +30 max rage talent?

[Rorke]

They should just remove Mortal Strike and Overpower. Replace the Overpower talent with improved slam where your auto attacks have a chance to proc a bigger Slam that does 325% weapon damage.

I mean really, why the fuck have extra buttons when you rarely use them.

[Beardyface]

Hi,
well, that is exactly how I try to do it and still I am rage starving.
I even created a short video (2 minutes) for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcdZ...ature=youtu.be
As you can see even with dauntless I never even get close to 50 Rage and have trouble filling all GCDs (I even miss some), with Overpower I miss much more.
What am I doing so wrong that both of you tell me "rage is a non-issue" and I am still wondering why we have a +30 max rage talent?

You're playing the way it looks like the spec is designed to play. That's why you're rage starving.

Blizzard gave you Mortal Strike, but you're not supposed to ever use it unless you have Shattered Defenses in the Artifact tree. Doesn't look like you have the Artifact Weapon. Mortal Combo is making it even worse because you're using up more rage on MS more often. Currently, Bladestorm is the best talent in that tier for single target AND AOE damage.

Yes, it's dumb as hell. That's why were complaining so much. I highly encourage you to post your experiences here:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20743676205

And for anyone else reading, please don't fall into the trap of thinking "they gave us MS, they clearly don't want it to be our least used main ability, I'm sure they'll change something" or "there's no way it's going to go live like this, I'm sure they're still working on it." They truly, absolutely are stupid enough to let Arms go live at release exactly the way it is now. Historically, there's even a high chance that there are still changes incoming that are going to make it worse. See WoD Arms.

Flood that feedback thread. Make them increase the cap. I think that's the only way they're going to hear us.

[Warriorsarri]

Hi,
well, that is exactly how I try to do it and still I am rage starving.
I even created a short video (2 minutes) for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcdZ...ature=youtu.be
As you can see even with dauntless I never even get close to 50 Rage and have trouble filling all GCDs (I even miss some), with Overpower I miss much more.
What am I doing so wrong that both of you tell me "rage is a non-issue" and I am still wondering why we have a +30 max rage talent?

I'll link the log I linked before, as Krosus is the Patchwerk this tier. What I can see you're not doing is that you're not using Bladestorm, which is by far our biggest DPS CD currently. Using it gives you 5 (hasted) seconds worth of free rage.

[Accendor]

Yes, it's dumb as hell. That's why were complaining so much. I highly encourage you to post your experiences here:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20743676205

Unfortunaly I am only able to post in the EU thread since I do not have access to the EU boards - but please feel free to copy my problem or my video there, because usually the EU boards get ignored even more than the US boards ;-)

Thanks for the feedback however, I am going to try it with Bladestorm (... and not pressing MS at all without the artifact)

[Rikhart]

After all the doom i´ve been reading here, I was kinda afraid to even test Arms on the Beta, but after about an hour of questing and some target dummy, I dont think it´s THAT bad. Overpower+mortal combo+titanic might make it quite enjoyable. I wonder what kind of dps loss it is to run Titanic might, but it makes the spec flow so much better.

[Warriorsarri]

Titanic Might will never be a viable talent, assuming they don't change the % values of either the efficiency loss, or the duration increase. Without it Arms, in general, has about a 50% CS uptime, which will increase with more haste (and crit to a lesser extent). This 50% uptime means that, in general, we get a CS reset ever 16 seconds, or less if we don't use BS.

With TM we get closer to a 95%+ uptime, but that can't compensate for the efficiency loss that the talent brings. For the buff of the duration to be worth considering, the efficiency loss would have to be brought down (up?) to something around 60-70% at the very least, rather than the 50% that is stands at today.

Regarding Mortal Combo.
With current tuning we only use Mortal Strike if we have Shattered Defenses up. This means that we only use Mortal strike once per CS window, and due to the fact that Tactician procs both a CS reset and a MS reset we will always have MS ready for the CS window. Only time this doesn't apply is when we use Warbreaker, but then again, as long as we use MS once inside CS, it doesn't matter if it's the first global, or the last, so not having it right away doesn't matter. If we get lucky during our Warbreaker CS and get a Tactician proc we can simply use the MS proc first to use up the Shattered Defenses proc, then use CS to proc Shattered Defenses again.

This means that the second charge from Mortal Combo will never be used. There are several ways to fix this, but assuming Blizzard doesn't want to change the mechanics of the spec, the only tool that remains is the tuning knob. If they want Mortal Combo to ever be a viable option Slam needs to be nerfed and / or Mortal Strike needs to be buffed. Right now Mortal Strike has about half the Rage efficiency of Slam, DPR, and on top of that Slam procs Tactician. For Mortal Strike to be a valid button to press it needs to have a higher DPR than Slam, or be put on the list of spells that procs Tactician.

As tuning stands right now Bladestorm is the, by far, strongest talent we have in the entire tree. This will be fixed hopefully, but it would still be the default choice in the level 90 tier due to the simple fact that One of the three talents (Titanic Might) is a DPS decrease over using no talent, and Mortal Combo is DPS neutral, or at the very best a minute increase. This means that we can either chose something that lowers our DPS, something that does nothing, or option #3 which even if nerfed by 50% is still a DPS increase.