[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[Ilir]

Like I said : I don't want them to remove it completely because that would be dumb. I just don't like the way it is currently implemented, that's it.

About StM : At first I thought it was an aweful talent, then it got buffed. I still think it should be reseted on wipe and that you shouldn't die if you kill the boss because that's really annoying but otherwise I like it. I don't like that our 2 other talents aren't real dps increases.

Also yeah, most trash packs are multidot/cleave so we're strong on it but that's only at the beginning until you overgear it and they die in one sec Tho the increased health from mythic + will keep it decent for us so that's cool.

[Annesh]

I kind of wish Blizz does put in an auto-VF talent. If people want to play with a talent that's mathematically the same as "Your spells have a chance to do 10% less damage," then that's their loss. Guilds can use it as an indicator of who not to invite on raids.

[Ilir]

I kind of wish Blizz does put in an auto-VF talent. If people want to play with a talent that's mathematically the same as "Your spells have a chance to do 10% less damage," then that's their loss. Guilds can use it as an indicator of who not to invite on raids.

Yeah that's a stupid comment.

What's the point of it ? You're acting childish.

[Kretan]

Like I said : I don't want them to remove it completely because that would be dumb. I just don't like the way it is currently implemented, that's it.

About StM : At first I thought it was an aweful talent, then it got buffed. I still think it should be reseted on wipe and that you shouldn't die if you kill the boss because that's really annoying but otherwise I like it. I don't like that our 2 other talents aren't real dps increases.

Also yeah, most trash packs are multidot/cleave so we're strong on it but that's only at the beginning until you overgear it and they die in one sec Tho the increased health from mythic + will keep it decent for us so that's cool.

Yeah I can agree that there are definitely better ways to implement it. Even if small, it could always be polished.

I think StM absolutely has to reset on wipe...would be soooo stupid if it didn't. I think at least mind spike will be a dps increase post tuning, but I agree I'd like there to be multiple different dps increases in that tier. I personally like StM the best, but more choice is never bad.

I think your point about mythic + preventing 1 sec trash packs is so important for us. Saves us from the 1 sec BOOM everything dead......

[Aeriel]

I kind of wish Blizz does put in an auto-VF talent. If people want to play with a talent that's mathematically the same as "Your spells have a chance to do 10% less damage," then that's their loss. Guilds can use it as an indicator of who not to invite on raids.

There are plenty of scenarios where auto-VF is net zero to a very, very, very low net gain in raids. The net loss arrives in solo play and PvP. As stated many times in this thread: making VB the activator would be the path of least resistance. Reduces a keybind and removes the need for a macro that most, average or better, players will have regardless.

We already have talents that do basically what you state (MSp & FotM).

[Kretan]

There are plenty of scenarios where auto-VF is net zero to a very, very, very low net gain in raids. The net loss arrives in solo play and PvP. As stated many times in this thread: making VB the activator would be the path of least resistance. Reduces a keybind and removes the need for a macro that most, average or better, players will have regardless.

We already have talents that do basically what you state (MSp & FotM).

Just for the sake of discussion, what situation is auto void form a net gain in? (irregardless of how small that actually is)

[Tanned]

As a raiding shadow priest, not having control over Voidform would (and did!) drive me nuts.

• Know the boss is about to do a big CC? Save Voidform until after!
• Know that adds are about to spawn? Save Voidform until after!
• All your DoTs aren't up on all the priority targets? Save voidform until after!
• Want to wait until MB is closer to being off CD? Save voidform until after!

I grant that players who aren't paying attention to these things will lose DPS. That doesn't bother me.

[Kretan]

As a raiding shadow priest, not having control over Voidform would (and did!) drive me nuts.

• Know the boss is about to do a big CC? Save Voidform until after!
• Know that adds are about to spawn? Save Voidform until after!
• All your DoTs aren't up on all the priority targets? Save voidform until after!
• Want to wait until MB is closer to being off CD? Save voidform until after!

I grant that players who aren't paying attention to these things will lose DPS. That doesn't bother me.

I wonder how long the window would be to save voidform until mind blast is ready.

[Polybius]

There are plenty of scenarios where auto-VF is net zero to a very, very, very low net gain in raids. The net loss arrives in solo play and PvP. As stated many times in this thread: making VB the activator would be the path of least resistance. Reduces a keybind and removes the need for a macro that most, average or better, players will have regardless.

We already have talents that do basically what you state (MSp & FotM).

Wait...

Can Voidform be macroed to Void Bolt? That would be great if you could.

[Kretan]

Wait...

Can Voidform be macroed to Void Bolt? That would be great if you could.

Yes it can, but it isn't always reliable in terms of activating + casting void bolt in one press. If you double press the macro to activate void form then cast void bolt, you can use that macro to just cast void bolt every time in void form too. The complaint was wanting to get one button to activate void form and cast void bolt in a single press.

[Aeriel]

Just for the sake of discussion, what situation is auto void form a net gain in? (irregardless of how small that actually is)

Players who are bad at managing VF uptime, new players (and old getting used to the new model), and Patchwerk style fights. Granted the net gain would be near the noise level.

In effect this would be a wash with the idea of VB activation, so net neutral to negligible dps gain.

[Annesh]

Yeah that's a stupid comment.

What's the point of it ? You're acting childish.

Eh? Pot meet kettle? Even assuming my comment didn't add anything of value to the discussion, which I disagree with, and assuming that every single post must add to the discussion, which many or most haven't for one reason or another, you haven't added anything either. You come off as butthurt because I attacked the position on the issue that you identify with. And the sad part is (unless I'm mixing up people) you seem like one of the more rational people on the automatic side.

But you're right, it was useless vitriol. It just frustrates me to see people arguing for something I just can't see as anything but irrational and wrong. It makes me afraid Blizzard is going to listen, revert the active void form, and my spec will end up infuriatingly unpleasant to play.

[Kretan]

Players who are bad at managing VF uptime, new players (and old getting used to the new model), and Patchwerk style fights. Granted the net gain would be near the noise level.

In effect this would be a wash with the idea of VB activation, so net neutral to negligible dps gain.

I would actually argue that active void form is a minuscule dps increase on patchwork. If the spell that pushes you over the top happens on global, it will activate void form and waste a global with no void bolt. With an activatable voidform, that global is no longer wasted. Again, it's near meaningless in size, but that's how I view it.

[Greatpippon]

Just for the sake of discussion, what situation is auto void form a net gain in? (irregardless of how small that actually is)

Just for the sake of discussion, I can imagine that in a multi dot fight with (geared) AS and the 2P bonus, bursts of 20-30 insanity are very likely to happen just during a MF channel. I estimate at least 1sec delay of VF between toggled and automatic, which summed up on a long fight could cost you a couple less VF in the toggled scenario. Sum the occasional non-buffed MB or whatever (since you reached 100 insanity mid-cast). I must agree that there actually are situations where automatic VF could be better, and thus favor a glyph/talent allowing the automatic version.

On the other hand I can imagine tons more situations where toggled VF is vastly superior, so if I can't have both, I'd rather stay with the current version.

[Theed]

Auto Voidform was stupid. I think everyone who tried it in alpha agrees.
I'm glad it won't return.

[Aeriel]

I would actually argue that active void form is a minuscule dps increase on patchwork. If the spell that pushes you over the top happens on global, it will activate void form and waste a global with no void bolt. With an activatable voidform, that global is no longer wasted. Again, it's near meaningless in size, but that's how I view it.

Yeah this is where it would be negligible difference. It may be a miniscule net gain for player A (due to skill, latency, etc) and a net loss for player B. The macro, and its issues, indicates that the biggest issue for the toggle is latency, which is a distinct issue with the new playstyle. Sure most of us will get used to double-tapping the macro, but should that be necessary?

My point was that auto-VF would be, at best, a net neutral dps effect. There are plenty of situations where it is a loss.

[Kretan]

Just for the sake of discussion, I can imagine that in a multi dot fight with (geared) AS and the 2P bonus, bursts of 20-30 insanity are very likely to happen just during a MF channel. I estimate at least 1sec delay of VF between toggled and automatic, which summed up on a long fight could cost you a couple less VF in the toggled scenario. Sum the occasional non-buffed MB or whatever (since you reached 100 insanity mid-cast). I must agree that there actually are situations where automatic VF could be better, and thus favor a glyph/talent allowing the automatic version.

On the other hand I can imagine tons more situations where toggled VF is vastly superior, so if I can't have both, I'd rather stay with the current version.

I can see that as a reason. If you have the proper weak auras though (thank you twintop) to track the AS, you shouldn't lose any. But, like we said one way or the other, the difference is so tiny it's not worth worrying either way.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah this is where it would be negligible difference. It may be a miniscule net gain for player A (due to skill, latency, etc) and a net loss for player B. The macro, and its issues, indicates that the biggest issue for the toggle is latency, which is a distinct issue with the new playstyle. Sure most of us will get used to double-tapping the macro, but should that be necessary?

My point was that auto-VF would be, at best, a net neutral dps effect. There are plenty of situations where it is a loss.

Yeah I agree. I think making void form activate on void bolt cast is the best solution compared to taking away control/what we have now.

[RsinRC]

Ok so let's get this over with lol

To begin, this is all fantasy talk. The benefit of having a toggable VF is huge for the spec in the grand scheme of things. With that said it would be interesting to see auto VF implemented in a talent. As I've mentioned in a past post, Void Lord would fit perfectly for this.

Ok so let's get basic and say there are 2 identically geared, talents, and have identical hardware setups. The only difference between these 2 amazing Shadow Priests is one has Auto VF and his name is something super random like Rsin and the other has the current implementation of VF and his name is Twinbottoms. For the sake of simplicity let's say they are both targeting a training dummy.

Now both Shadow Priests are given 6 minutes to deal the most damage possible and they are both confident and sexy ass players so they know what they're doing.

They both start with their rotations and everything is going good. Wait a second? Rsin was able to switch to VF half a second faster already? How so?

So one thing that happens more often than not is we hit cap Insanity in the middle of a cast. Why is this relevant? Rsin has auto VF so while Twinbottoms has to finish his cast in order to press the VF button/macro, Rsin automatically turned into VF.

At first this doesn't seem too huge but it adds up. No matter what you're casting you will have to let it finish in order to go VF.

Now the more interesting part. If Rsin and Twinbottoms are both casting MB, for example, and they both hit 100i (cap 100 insanity) in the middle of the cast Rsin's MB will hit harder because of VF's 30% damage increase. So not only is Rsin ahead in VF time but ahead in damage. This continues throughout the entire fight.

What I've mentioned does not include lag issues where pressing the button doesn't do anything for a bit and this also doesn't include the reaction time it takes to activate VF if you wait for the button to light up. Neither the case of players who really don't know what they're doing and will help them squeeze out a bit more dos. There is also the case that happens especially with LotV is that we get to 100i/60i so fast that we don't realize it and time passes by before pressing it when auto VF will switch you instantaneously regardless.

Now I'm gonna be honest here, for the most part of whatever we're doing there really isn't much of a time where you actually just hold from pressing it. The moment it lights up we are spamming the shit out of VF, whether it be quest mobs, dungeons or raids. I know there are plenty of examples folks bring about but for the vast majority of our time playing we find ourselves going ham asap or wanting to get to VF as quickly as possible to go VF.

At this point, having this appear as a talent will surely make the spec as a whole a little more interesting in the fact that you can push yourself even more so in fights where there isn't a time you need hold VF which again is very rare compared to wanting to spam toggle VF. You can squeeze out more VF uptime and we all know people love min/maxing themselves with cop as a perfect example just to have an extra 5% but this can be potentially far more than just a simple 5% if you know your timing and your encounters.

I apologize for the late post. Had to prepare the house for tonight's Game Of Thrones event (;

[Ilir]

You guys also have to keep in mind that when it was first passive, we were totally not where we stand today. VB was not refreshing to full, no LotV, no insanity gen via AS, no insanity on cast etc etc.

I understand totally that it would suck big time, and it did suck when my VF would pop like when the mob was dead 0.4 sec later. I don't want that to be back as the only scenario. Also, I never said "they absolutely need to get back to how it was before" I just said "I feel like" => my opinion.

The proposed change to making VB activate it (which was already suggested the first time the change went in) is totally okay with me. It's just that I find it silly that we have to macro one of our core mechanic and use it as if it was a passive the majority of the time.

I won't die if they don't change anything and I won't stop playing my priest because of it. I just think it would be nice.
@Amnesh No worries, I was really tired when I read your post and it kinda annoyed me then.

Anyway, I'm sorry to have started such a big discussion/mess, I thought more people felt the same way but apparently the majority (and also those of you who are more into the high level stuff) disagree with me (with good arguments) so that's cool for me because like I said, it's the least of SPriest problems.

[escott410]

Ok so let's get this over with lol

To begin, this is all fantasy talk. The benefit of having a toggable VF is huge for the spec in the grand scheme of things. With that said it would be interesting to see auto VF implemented in a talent. As I've mentioned in a past post, Void Lord would fit perfectly for this.

Ok so let's get basic and say there are 2 identically geared, talents, and have identical hardware setups. The only difference between these 2 amazing Shadow Priests is one has Auto VF and his name is something super random like Rsin and the other has the current implementation of VF and his name is Twinbottoms. For the sake of simplicity let's say they are both targeting a training dummy.

Now both Shadow Priests are given 6 minutes to deal the most damage possible and they are both confident and sexy ass players so they know what they're doing.

They both start with their rotations and everything is going good. Wait a second? Rsin was able to switch to VF half a second faster already? How so?

So one thing that happens more often than not is we hit cap Insanity in the middle of a cast. Why is this relevant? Rsin has auto VF so while Twinbottoms has to finish his cast in order to press the VF button/macro, Rsin automatically turned into VF.

At first this doesn't seem too huge but it adds up. No matter what you're casting you will have to let it finish in order to go VF.

Now the more interesting part. If Rsin and Twinbottoms are both casting MB, for example, and they both hit 100i (cap 100 insanity) in the middle of the cast Rsin's MB will hit harder because of VF's 30% damage increase. So not only is Rsin ahead in VF time but ahead in damage. This continues throughout the entire fight.

What I've mentioned does not include lag issues where pressing the button doesn't do anything for a bit and this also doesn't include the reaction time it takes to activate VF if you wait for the button to light up. Neither the case of players who really don't know what they're doing and will help them squeeze out a bit more dos. There is also the case that happens especially with LotV is that we get to 100i/60i so fast that we don't realize it and time passes by before pressing it when auto VF will switch you instantaneously regardless.

Now I'm gonna be honest here, for the most part of whatever we're doing there really isn't much of a time where you actually just hold from pressing it. The moment it lights up we are spamming the shit out of VF, whether it be quest mobs, dungeons or raids. I know there are plenty of examples folks bring about but for the vast majority of our time playing we find ourselves going ham asap or wanting to get to VF as quickly as possible to go VF.

At this point, having this appear as a talent will surely make the spec as a whole a little more interesting in the fact that you can push yourself even more so in fights where there isn't a time you need hold VF which again is very rare compared to wanting to spam toggle VF. You can squeeze out more VF uptime and we all know people love min/maxing themselves with cop as a perfect example just to have an extra 5% but this can be potentially far more than just a simple 5% if you know your timing and your encounters.

I apologize for the late post. Had to prepare the house for tonight's Game Of Thrones event (;

You can live in your little bubble of what you think vs what really is all you want, but having control over something is always better in all facets of the game. And I'm glad the majority agrees. Your posts do nothing but convince me to skip to the next post to see what the next person has to say.