[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Derah]

Also, the idea that "realism flew out the window" is a poor argument indeed. This isn't Calvinball. Internal consistency is a hallmark of good writing, including fantasy. And it's something Martin himself is fanatical about.

What has been inconsistent here?

Because at no point in the show have they ever shown Dany to be vulnerable to fire. Ever. In the books she gets burned, but in the show, she's immune to all forms of fire, hot water, hot steam, heat in general doesn't affect her in any way whatsoever. The "realism" of this show has been consistent from day one. And by that I mean that this show is not very realistic.

After all, we had a scene in Season 2 where Tyrion hacks a man's leg off with a single hatchet strike. Lemme repeat that just in case it didn't sink in: A man in full plate armor, got his leg hacked off, when a midget dwarf man who is neither strong, nor a trained combatant, hacked his leg clean off in a single hit, with a hatchet.

And then people bitch about the dualwielding being unrealistic.

What else we have? Ohh yeah, the aforementioned mulatto dwarf (Sirio) beating six armored knights with a fucking wooden sword.

Then there's the laundry list of fantasy elements I mentioned in my post (Tree dude, shapeshifting assassin cult, shadow demon clone, zombies, dragons, giants, resurrections, etc) and now all of the sudden, there's "Internal inconsistencies" with the fantasy/realism elements of the show? get outta here.

[Kyanion]

I don't want to get upset because folks seem to want to misrepresent it. But once again, there is such a thread. Feel free to use it.

Yes this thread is both about the books and the TV show but some people refuse to separate the two when it is needed. When an episode airs people quickly rush to their books to try and compare things and nitpick things. It can take away from a good episode.

[Brubear]

Well, if we're going with the theory that Smalljon is totally legit when he shows up at Winterfell to side with the Boltons, he may not know that Jon is leading them. The way he phrases his explanation, it sounds like Jon just let them loose on the landscape and stayed in Castle Black. That is a legitimate, I suppose, explanation for why he'd be pissed/worried.
...

I got a different feeling from that scene, since he says Jon Snow is leading an army of Wildlings (at least that's what I heard him say when I rewatched it earlier, but the sound was pretty low and I didn't feel like turning up my volume that much=P). If he just let the army run loose, then yeah I understand his fears. But if he did say that he was leading the army like I thought he did, then I really don't understand his fear.

[Kyanion]

I would largely agree with this assessment. D&D have shown themselves far stronger with the smaller set pieces than the larger plots. They get the characterization right when they don't cut too much, and I have appreciated that.

I think the disappointment you have seen in the thread has come largely from last season. I'm hoping they find their feet again so folks will relax a bit.

I felt the first couple episodes were pretty bland on the dialogue but this episode FINALLY had some meaningful conversations and set things up for later.

[TirielWoW]

Once again, as you've made the same mistake as Winter. You are not the only one in this conversation. Yes, there were people trying to claim such. And again, I gave an example of when someone did.

He did not appear to be arguing that it was true in the books. He seemed to be interested in whether it could eventually turn out that way in the books. And I'm pretty sure he even said that was his intentions. But whatever, let's argue more about something no one was arguing about.

¯\(°_o)/¯

[Sooba]

Yes this thread is both about the books and the TV show but some people refuse to separate the two when it is needed. When an episode airs people quickly rush to their books to try and compare things and nitpick things. It can take away from a good episode.

Then use the thread that's only about the show? It really is a simple solution. Elegant even. When a thread exists that is meant to serve both, comparisons are guaranteed. It's even kind've the point.

I genuinely don't mean to be rude about it. But now we've just had at least two people come in here, one whom I could even legitimately call "barging", whining that those pesky book readers are using the thread to talk about the books. Seriously?

[Kyanion]

I got a different feeling from that scene, since he says Jon Snow is leading an army of Wildlings (at least that's what I heard him say when I rewatched it earlier, but the sound was pretty low and I didn't feel like turning up my volume that much=P). If he just let the army run loose, then yeah I understand his fears. But if he did say that he was leading the army like I thought he did, then I really don't understand his fear.

Yeah I've gotten used to having subtitles on when watching it on hbonow. Hate the font they use but it clears up some of the words that are whispered or said in a way that could be confused with other words.

[TirielWoW]

Then use the thread that's only about the show? It really is a simple solution. Elegant even. When a thread exists that is meant to serve both, comparisons are guaranteed. It's even kind've the point.

We're not allowed to. You cannot discuss spoilers on that thread, so if you want to react immediately, this is the only thread available.

[Kyanion]

Then use the thread that's only about the show? It really is a simple solution. Elegant even. When a thread exists that is meant to serve both, comparisons are guaranteed. It's even kind've the point.

It is the point in your eyes perhaps. This thread is active in discussing the episodes when they air. Do you think quibbling about little facets of the book makes for a good conversation or just pointless bullshit arguing for the past 20-30 pages? Using the book as a reference or comparing things as they happen in the TV show to what happened in the books is all well and good. But getting into pointless arguments about fire immunity when it hasn't been fully explained in the books or the TV show to this point is just nuts.

[Sooba]

What has been inconsistent here?

Because at no point in the show have they ever shown Dany to be vulnerable to fire. Ever. In the books she gets burned, but in the show, she's immune to all forms of fire, hot water, hot steam, heat in general doesn't affect her in any way whatsoever. The "realism" of this show has been consistent from day one. And by that I mean that this show is not very realistic.

After all, we had a scene in Season 2 where Tyrion hacks a man's leg off with a single hatchet strike. Lemme repeat that just in case it didn't sink in: A man in full plate armor, got his leg hacked off, when a midget dwarf man who is neither strong, nor a trained combatant, hacked his leg clean off in a single hit, with a hatchet.

And then people bitch about the dualwielding being unrealistic.

What else we have? Ohh yeah, the aforementioned mulatto dwarf (Sirio) beating six armored knights with a fucking wooden sword.

Then there's the laundry list of fantasy elements I mentioned in my post (Tree dude, shapeshifting assassin cult, shadow demon clone, zombies, dragons, giants, resurrections, etc) and now all of the sudden, there's "Internal inconsistencies" with the fantasy/realism elements of the show? get outta here.

Again you are pointlessly pugilistic. I didn't say that those elements weren't fantastical. I simply said that your previous assertion that "reality went out the window" is simply incorrect. The books and show both aspire to internal consistency. This isn't Discworld.

Kindly change your tone. And if you want to be taken seriously you might even apologize for barging in and being a complete ass to people who are using the thread the way it was designed.

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We're not allowed to. You cannot discuss spoilers on that thread, so if you want to react immediately, this is the only thread available.

It's no longer spoilers once the show has aired.

[Brubear]

Yeah I've gotten used to having subtitles on when watching it on hbonow. Hate the font they use but it clears up some of the words that are whispered or said in a way that could be confused with other words.

So I just had to listen to that line two or three times until I could tell whether he said "let" or "led". I dislike watching shows with the subtitles on unless they're actually needed. Yes it does add to some of the confusion but meh, I can live with that.

That would definitely make more sense as to why he was afraid of the Wildlings. It also would make the theory about him less credible. The fact that he's dead in the books makes it even less likely to me that he's just playing Ramsey. He knows that Jon Snow is alive and (I assume) heard that Sansa escaped, so there isn't really a good reason to give Rickon to the Boltons rather then just keep him protected at the Last Hearth. Hell, even taking him to Castle Black would seem to be safer then giving him to the Boltons, especially Ramsey.

Which makes me sad because they just turned my favorite house into selfish turncoats=/

[Sooba]

It is the point in your eyes perhaps. This thread is active in discussing the episodes when they air. Do you think quibbling about little facets of the book makes for a good conversation or just pointless bullshit arguing for the past 20-30 pages? Using the book as a reference or comparing things as they happen in the TV show to what happened in the books is all well and good. But getting into pointless arguments about fire immunity when it hasn't been fully explained in the books or the TV show to this point is just nuts.

The quibbling only truly gets tiresome when it gets meta with folks whining about debate. Don't ignore the fact that this is the book+show thread. If you want a Show only thread, it exists. Please don't try to force this one to conform when you have one shiny and ready for you.

[TirielWoW]

So I just had to listen to that line two or three times until I could tell whether he said "let" or "led". I dislike watching shows with the subtitles on unless they're actually needed. Yes it does add to some of the confusion but meh, I can live with that.

That would definitely make more sense as to why he was afraid of the Wildlings. It also would make the theory about him less credible. The fact that he's dead in the books makes it even less likely to me that he's just playing Ramsey. He knows that Jon Snow is alive and (I assume) heard that Sansa escaped, so there isn't really a good reason to give Rickon to the Boltons rather then just keep him protected at the Last Hearth.

Which makes me sad because they just turned my favorite house into selfish turncoats=/

If that is the case, I will definitely have a case of the sads.

[Sooba]

If that is the case, I will definitely have a case of the sads.

Well, somebody had to represent Hother Umber. If precedent is anything to go by, the Umbers will be a seemingly split opinion.

[TirielWoW]

Well, somebody had to represent Hother Umber. If precedent is anything to go by, the Umbers will be a seemingly split opinion.

I dunno, the North is turning out to be a bunch of shits.

[Kyanion]

The quibbling only truly gets tiresome when it gets meta with folks whining about debate. Don't ignore the fact that this is the book+show thread. If you want a Show only thread, it exists. Please don't try to force this one to conform when you have one shiny and ready for you.

And do not try to tell people how and what to discuss things. You see it one way and others see it another. If people want to discuss the episode that just aired in the "
[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***" thread they do not HAVE to reference the books at all. It is there if people want to use it. That does not mean jam the books down people's throats either.

Don't force people to conform to your views on how this thread should be discussed.

[Sooba]

So I just had to listen to that line two or three times until I could tell whether he said "let" or "led". I dislike watching shows with the subtitles on unless they're actually needed. Yes it does add to some of the confusion but meh, I can live with that.

That would definitely make more sense as to why he was afraid of the Wildlings. It also would make the theory about him less credible. The fact that he's dead in the books makes it even less likely to me that he's just playing Ramsey. He knows that Jon Snow is alive and (I assume) heard that Sansa escaped, so there isn't really a good reason to give Rickon to the Boltons rather then just keep him protected at the Last Hearth. Hell, even taking him to Castle Black would seem to be safer then giving him to the Boltons, especially Ramsey.

Which makes me sad because they just turned my favorite house into selfish turncoats=/

I heard "let". ie, not under control.

On the other hand I don't think there has been raping and pillaging going on in this instance. Merely the fear of it due to history. We do know that the wildlings are simply looking for refuge after all.

I wouldn't lose heart yet. Smalljon might not be representative of the entire House.

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And do not try to tell people how and what to discuss things. You see it one way and others see it another. If people want to discuss the episode that just aired in the "
[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***" thread they do not HAVE to reference the books at all. It is there if people want to use it. That does not mean jam the books down people's throats either.

Don't force people to conform to your views on how this thread should be discussed.

This is where you're going off the rails. I didn't say you couldn't discuss an episode. Some of you folks (including you) did try to tell people talking / comparing with the books to stop. I'm not forcing you to conform. I'm telling you to stop telling others to.

I'm not sure if that misdirection was on purpose or not, but it's not appreciated.

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I dunno, the North is turning out to be a bunch of shits.

Lady Hornwood wasn't exactly a shining example either. So there's precedent for that too. I'm fairly confident Ramsay's support will find itself to be rather... unreliable

And really, book Manderly is totally badass in the most "little shit" way possible. I am looking forward to seeing what little shitness they get up to in the show. >

[TirielWoW]

Some of you folks (including you) did try to tell people talking / comparing with the books to stop. I'm not forcing you to conform. I'm telling you to stop telling others to.

I'm not sure if that misdirection was on purpose or not, but it's not appreciated.

No, that's not right at all. My only point was that the books and the shows are two separate entities. We had people in here saying that Dany could not be immune to fire because Martin said she's not in the books. But the books and the show are not the same, and to argue that because something is one way in the books it can't be completely opposite in the show is silly. Sansa is never married to or raped by Ramsey Bolton in the books, yet that is exactly what happens in the show. Shireen is never burnt at the stake by Melisandre in the books, but that is what happens in the show. Myrcella is still alive in the books, so far as we know, but she's dead in the show.

Etc.

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Lady Hornwood wasn't exactly a shining example either. So there's precedent for that too. I'm fairly confident Ramsay's support will find itself to be rather... unreliable

I can only hope.

[Sooba]

No, that's not right at all. My only point was that the books and the shows are two separate entities. We had people in here saying that Dany could not be immune to fire because Martin said she's not in the books. But the books and the show are not the same, and to argue that because something is one way in the books it can't be completely opposite in the show is silly. Sansa is never married to or raped by Ramsey Bolton in the books, yet that is exactly what happens in the show. Shireen is never burnt at the stake by Melisandre in the books, but that is what happens in the show. Myrcella is still alive in the books, so far as we know, but she's dead in the show.

Etc.

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I can only hope.

Careful. That was directed at Kyanion. Not you. Last part was to you. Both he and Derah certainly did try to tell book readers to stop comparing the two. One more politely than the other. >.>

As for your comparisons, some haven't been completed yet. We're not sure about Shireen for example, but I'd be surprised if she doesn't burn in the books. That's where her arc seemed headed, sadly. And while Myrcella is alive in the books, she's as good as dead. That much was clear ever since Maggy-the-frog was in the picture. {And Ramsay raped Jeyne Poole (in a far more brutal manner too), etc etc.} There's lots of similarities and parallels. Enough that the comparisons are inevitable.

To be clear since Kyanion did try and reframe my statements unfairly: At no point am I saying show discussion is bad/wrong. I'm just saying folks can't come into the combined thread and expect comparisons to not happen. If they won't want the books to come into it, there's a thread for that.

[Michaelmc454]

So this isn't real life? This is just fantasy?

Damn it, I feel like I've been caught in a landslide.

No escape from reality? Maybe you should just open your eyes and you'll see a clear sky or something