Why is exclusivity bad for WoW (and other MMOs)?

[Typhoria]

Catch up mechanics are not the problem and a week to raid HFC? No, it is a weekend you could do it. Catch up mechanics are needed, a week or two to catch up to current end game content would be better than what we have.

How are they not? It bypasses older content in such a short period of time. If people want to see the content there is LFR, but to bypass actual progression by doing stuff that takes little effort is madness.

If it's critical for an alt to be at current raid level, the guild/group can probably carry at least one dead weight to get them where they need to be in a reasonable time frame. Right now it feels like the game forces players to do the current raid content as fast as possible, instead of build up to it.

[Darththeo]

Why cant you boost them with flexible? Why cant you help BoE's? Why cant you help with professions and high end raid recipes?

Secondly, for newer players, all you are doing is skipping over 2 raids to be able to do 1. Less is more I guess (better? lol)

If catchup makes so much sense you have to explain why 1 raid HFC is better then HM/BRF/world content/profs/dungeon content in terms of content. LFR doesn't count because people only do HM/BRF for the legendary and watch netflix.

Why should someone do all content to get to end game at the end of an expansion? I agree that Blizzard fucked up the catch up mechanic, doesn't mean it is bad.

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How are they not? It bypasses older content in such a short period of time. If people want to see the content there is LFR, but to bypass actual progression by doing stuff that takes little effort is madness.

If it's critical for an alt to be at current raid level, the guild/group can probably carry at least one dead weight to get them where you need to be in a reasonable time frame. Right now it feels like the game forces players to do the current raid content as fast as possible, instead of build up to it.

Catch up mechanics are needed for guilds to keep raiding the higher tiers.
Again, I openly admit blizzard fucked up the mechanics that they put in place.
How does blizzard fucking up make the idea of catch up mechanics bad?

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Do you even believe what you say really? DO you honestly feel this? No sir the truth is. in dark souls if you are shit you wont feel bad because it can be %100 played single. Nobody sees you how bad, nobody knows how shit you are. nobody knows how much you suck. You are a failure and nothing to be ashamed of. on the other hand...

We have wow. There are those players who are good, skilled, or simply has enough time or dedication whatever. But you sir, you suck, you fail, you are terrible, you have 1 hour everyday, you are nothing. But here, people see you. In your stupid green gear, ahh the shame. You failed, screwed so hard at boss, by just standing in fire. You made the raid wipe because of you. You were the bomb but you stayed inside the raid, boom (that mc boss) good times sir we know you suck. everybody knows you are a failure.

No sir, no matter how much you try to act cool or mature, you have that feeling. You don't want to be seen a failure, a casual by others. SImple as that. It is so funny, you will sell that game back . Really?

Dark Souls is a total match for WoW. Saying "you can't compare it to mmo" is a bullshit. It is the most popular mmo and you want to be just like others. not a failure. You have this feeling, in your subconsciousness, in you. You want to play the game just like the cool guys.

So, yeah if WoW was single player and everything else replaced by npc, would you sell the cd back again? Or I wonder would be jealous of npcs too? Or would you simply keep your fail gear and do the raids.

First off, yes, I actually think that.
Secondly, I don't give a shit what anyone thinks of my quality of play unless they are an ass about it, then I just ignore them.
Thirdly, no matter how much you try to make it comparable, it never will be. Too bad you can't see why.

And lastly, if WoW was single player, I wouldn't have a reason to sell it back because I could do all the content. I wouldn't have to deal with PUGs where if you die once they kick you because they don't have time for a player learning. I have done heroic dungeons where a player was new and someone vote to kick them because they weren't helping us steam roll the content. The problem with raiding for me isn't that it is hard, the reason I don't raid seriously is people like you who think little of another player and don't give two shits about it. I don't raid seriously because I don't have enough time to play and I rather not spend that time with toxic people.

I have said in this very topic, I would play a single player experience that provided no loot if they gave it. I literally don't give a fuck about loot or mounts or anything like that. I don't want to be denied story content and its progression behind an exclusivity gate. If they gave me ways that I can earn good gear with effort in single player I wouldn't care.

So before you give another smug reply, I suggest you actually think before posting.

[CaptainV]

Because *gasp" they are players who want to spend more time in wow than you want, and they have nothing to do?

This guy... nails it on the head, I have nothing else to add than ^ that.

[Darththeo]

The issue with me at least, is that I want what's best for the game, not necessarily for myself, even though the two kind of go hand in hand in this case. Raid exclusivity brings more positives with it than negatives.

It breeds better players
It keeps raiding guilds relevant
It gives people something to work toward
It brings server communities together

Negatives?

I guess it can sort of breed elitism. "Ha ha, look at my raid gear that you can't get." But the truth is, raid gear is (or should be) obtained through hard work. Not so much how it is today. Look at the previous comments. People are getting carried in Mythic because you simply cannot fill a 20-man raid with 100% competent players. If you did, you would be in the top 100 in the world.

So, it also breeds toxic players on top of better players? How does it bring server communities together? It being unaccessable to the average player harms raiding guilds. Raiding isn't itself hard work, carries happened all the time ... hell, on my server now if I wanted I could pay a guild 500,000 gold (if not less than that) for a Mythic carry and have all the Mythic gear I want.

I remember in WotLK, going on a Loot Ship raid for heroic gear. Just because you make it exclusive doesn't mean you make players better.

[Gref]

People like you are the root of the problem.

And no I give a shit. I guide people, I have the time patience dedication. But I expect the same from trials. You however said it yourself, pugs. You are a pug, just like the other worthless pugs. You are in the same boat. And you complain. pugs come together and complain. And here we go more dumbed down content. If you have what it takes apply to a guild. Don't worry proper guilds have all proper instructions for trials, forums and lots of cool guys to help. If you insist on being trash that's another story.

Dumbed down content finishes quickly. Everybody sees the end. Nothing to do. Wait until next expac. Do you know how long it took for a realm to open aq gates? Or the effort? Man the game is already single play get in lfr afk out. Good times.

Get in a proper guild tell them you never been to serious raiding and don't know much. Trust me they will help. Explain.

And as you said it you don't have time that's your problem. Naxx was there aq40 was there. Open to everyone. Problem are people not the game.


I have a motto. Organize your private life according to your job. Not the otherwise. The job is first, then adapt. However people like you didn't accept the game, job as it is,demanded changes according to their private life. Like being bad or no time. I said this that time let the wow as it is. If you don't have whatever it is, then don't play. However together with business and immense casual style game changed dramatically and now we are the ones being told if you don't like, don't play.

I am not in favor of classic realm but you will see how many people will play on them if it ever happens.

[mysticx]

Very good points, and I agree with all of them. The guild raiding scene is in such a horrible place right now, I don't know if we'll ever get it back. Its sad to see people carrying and getting carried to get mythic kills, just because that's all you have to work with. I STRONGLY feel that the reason people are so bad is because of LFR, and the anonymity of LFG and pug raids. If raids were put back into guilds like they used to be, you think people would smarten up? I think so, but who knows.

Ghostcrawler said it once that when pressed people will NOT "step up" (nor will they "git gud"), they will leave instead, you might say "good riddance" but people who quit won't join your raid guild either, and there aren't many people joining WoW anymore to replace them, gaming has changed in the past 11 years, and over the years tolerance for setbacks and getting stuck have gone way down, very few people these days have the tolerance for progression nights, with lots of wiping and little to no loot...

[Cwimge]

Because it fosters the "why bother?" mindset. Why start playing when all this awesome shit is denied to me forever?

[Deleted]

Because it fosters the "why bother?" mindset. Why start playing when all this awesome shit is denied to me forever?

It works both ways. If everything is easy to access, there is nothing to look forward to other than beating same content on harder difficulty, why bother? Why bother improving? Why bother socializing in MMO? All content is available to players in single player mode.

There should be middle ground. Unfortunately Blizzard is always going for extremes.

[Daffan]

Why should someone do all content to get to end game at the end of an expansion? I agree that Blizzard fucked up the catch up mechanic, doesn't mean it is bad.

So they don't burn out in 2 weeks after hitting level 100.

[ItachiZaku]

There is a massive amount of stuff to do in this game, the issue comes down to YOU. If YOU don't think there isn't enough to do, you should probably go find another game. I've been playing since BC, and since then, there has been so much added that I can't possible do it all each day after work. Same amount of dailies, gear grinding, raids etc. Oh, and a ton of other shit on top of it. I like that I can log in and do any number of things and if I'm feeling really motivated... i can't finish all of it.

I like having RGB mounts, cuz others can't. I like seeing people with their Annihilators (like doesn't everyone have this by now, it seems). It's a good time for diversity in the game, but bad if you have too much time on your hands, cuz you'll end up bored and uninterested in things that mean nothing to you.

[Volitar]

Special snowflaking much?

You need to understand that this is a game. I pay the same to play it as you, I should be denied content because I am not as good as you are? And because I can't get as good as you because people don't want the particular class/spec I want to play? The super bowl analogy doesn't work as all teams have a chance to see the Super Bowl, in the old way, not everyone had a chance to see content.

Also added, that what do you give Raiders who beat the raid and were fully geared to max? There was nothing ... by adding other difficulties it allowed raiders to do more.

Edit: I am editing this point do to an assumption people are making. I am not asking for the same gear or access to the same other stuff other players get. By content I am referring to story and the progression of said story.

I know it sucks to miss out on some story but the current design of do the same raid and bosses 3 times over is awful.


If you can't beat the last level of a single player and don't get to see the end of the story does the game suck?

[Varaben]

Whoa whoa whoa, you had to be "good" to raid? That's completely untrue. We had players auto-attacking in vanilla raids (in their defense, threat was a real issues and most classes couldn't reliably drop threat) and we did OK. There also used to be raiding coalitions where two or three or four small guilds would pool together to raid. I raided in such a group in Vanilla and TBC; not sure that exists anymore. Point is, you could be a "guild" of 5 people and still raid a 40 man.

One thing that Blizz has said consistently (whether it's true or not) is that having difficult content doesn't force players to "rise to the occassion." It might for some players, but typically just turns them off of the content. That's why it makes sense to have a range of difficulty of content, if your goal is to get more players. Personally, I'd rather the game be 10% of the size it is (which could still be profitable) and be focused on a specific demographic than trying to pander to 10 different playstyles. Let's stop with the pet battles and farm/garrison content for example.

Another note is that the general difficulty of the game has gotten objectively lower over the years, which I don't think makes much sense. My wife is about the most casual player you could ever encounter (never does dungeons, only quests/levels/professions) and recently came back to the game. She's totally turned off by how easy professions are (e.g. you can skin anything at any level of skinning) and started wondering if you could play the game like it used to be.

[Sansnom]

Their data probably says something like this

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99% of players have used the Shipyard - it's a massive success! We are seeing incredible rates of player participation. Record numbers!

*note Shipyard is required.
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They also probably see good numbers for LFR because people need to get their legendary rings, even though they actually hate the place and the gear is terrible because PVP drops 700 while you are afk.

Nope. This what forum posters like to think and conclude. Just as WoW peaked at 12M and now around 5M. They can only conclude 7M dropped based on just FACT. They ASSUME it is the same set of people played from WoTLK to now.

Statistics data analysis is more complex than just reading one data and conclude this is implication of another.

[Deleted]

If you can't beat the last level of a single player and don't get to see the end of the story does the game suck?

Something sucks for sure, specially if you are really trying.
At the same time, if without even trying, you beat that last level, something sucks also.
It has never happened to me with just one exception, wizards&warriors of DW bradley. the submarine damned door gets bugged at like 85-90% percent of the game completion and there is no way in heaven or hell i can solve that bug, and believe me i have tried hard to find a solution, but nope i failed at that.
A shame, because the game is very very good, but hell yes i am pissed i never managed to get to the pharoah.
I had to watch the final fight in youtube; and this is a game that requires quite a lot of dedication.

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One thing that Blizz has said consistently (whether it's true or not) is that having difficult content doesn't force players to "rise to the occassion." It might for some players, but typically just turns them off of the content.

And still, this was the defining factor that attracted people to the RPGs game genre to begin with, it is the same concept that works well in Dark Soul series, Bloodborne, and demon souls, But not in a MMO, majority of people clearly gets away of the "rise to the occassion" because they can´t stand the logistics problem, and the sometimes zero reward for their efforts, because it is a large group effort not an individual one.
We will have to see if the new 5-man raiding in legion is or is not better recieved by the population.

[Deleted]

Playing less is the problem. You play for a few hours/week and then you're done progressing. You wait for timegates to reset or your guild to come online for the raid. It's an MMO with content that doesn't stretch more than a few hours a week. Why? Because people feel entitled to finish all of it, without sinking in the time.

If I wanted to jerk off, read a book or hang out with friends I'll do that. If I want to not wear pants and spent 8 hours progressing my character I don't have that option.

No serious player is advocating exclusively difficult content(well...few). We just want some hard, rewarding content that isn't watered down or just a bonus lap, so that the participationrate is high enough.

So, where is the problem?
You want to put more time into playing, I want less time.
You have mythic, I have lfr/normal/heroic.
Again, where is the issue?

[Sansnom]

I know it sucks to miss out on some story but the current design of do the same raid and bosses 3 times over is awful.

I am curious to ask if anyone actually do the bosses 3 times over. I can understand doing it twice. If people are doing normal then heroic and then LFR, I doubt they are doing the LFR for the fun, more likely for the loot or whatever rewards they are after.

In which case, they really have no reasons to complain. They are there for the loot, not the challenge.

If you can't beat the last level of a single player and don't get to see the end of the story does the game suck?

Yes. Which is why many games have separate difficulties for different players.

[Pieterman]

So, where is the problem?
You want to put more time into playing, I want less time.
You have mythic, I have lfr/normal/heroic.
Again, where is the issue?

It's cool that you're not experiencing the same problems more serious players are, but at least put in some effort to understand them if you're gonna argue about them.

[Daffan]

Nope. This what forum posters like to think and conclude. Just as WoW peaked at 12M and now around 5M. They can only conclude 7M dropped based on just FACT. They ASSUME it is the same set of people played from WoTLK to now.

Statistics data analysis is more complex than just reading one data and conclude this is implication of another.

It was an example of how they read data, not what it would be :P

[Darththeo]

So they don't burn out in 2 weeks after hitting level 100.

And they burn out a little latter then. The problem isn't catch up mechanics but the lack of content to do.

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I know it sucks to miss out on some story but the current design of do the same raid and bosses 3 times over is awful.


If you can't beat the last level of a single player and don't get to see the end of the story does the game suck?

Depends on the reason. I have played so single player games where the boss in glitched (but still beatable but the glitch makes it harder). I don't say a game sucks just because I can't beat it, however if I have no potential to beat it then I don't think it is a good game. I am what I consider a casual gamer, I can likely do normal raids in wow now without much problem, I just don't want to deal with toxic raiders.

I had that LFR is a joke that there is almost no point to do at all.

[Deleted]

It's cool that you're not experiencing the same problems more serious players are, but at least put in some effort to understand them if you're gonna argue about them.

I understand their point if view, I really do. I was there, in their shoes, raided highest mode.
BUT, I have issue with people who pursue the idea of removing someone elses content, so they feel better about themself.

If they said "Blizzard, can you give us more hardcore content, let other have their fun in lesser modes", I would be happy.

But when they say "Remove all lesser modes, we dont feel exclusive enough, fck casuals, they are not worth even stepping there" - this is what pisses me off. Being happy while putting others in miserable position is selfish position I cant tolerate.