[LEGION] Mistweaving Discussion

[Supliftz]

rdruids and hpriests have good tank heals with little commitment

monk only has good tank heals when you commit

Basically this. Although I wouldn't say holy priests do good tank hps with low commitment however. Anyway, the problem is Enveloping does way too much healing and because of that, costs a lot of mana to justify the healing. The reason why the HoT refresh legendary is so good, is because you rarely have to recast enveloping mist.

In a world of infinite mana (aka the 5 man world), monk tank hps is the highest in the game. However, raids don't work like that. Rarely can you actually get full value off an enveloping mist cast, and because it contributes so much of monk's tank hps, if you're unable to get full value off enm so tank healing is fairly average.

Most of the logs of monks doing solid tank healing were only really using effuse/rem.

EDIT: I actually looked at the context of that post, and I don't see how it relates at all to what I was saying. I was merely agreeing with druids and holy priests doing hpal level tank healing. I didn't even mention monk LOL. Nice attempt at trying to "catch" me out though xD.

[cqwrteur]

Where can I find beta combatlogs on wcl?

[Spotnick]

Use "zone >all reports" then there is a zone filtrr

[cqwrteur]

Use "zone >all reports" then there is a zone filtrr

How about mistweavers now? A tank healer or a raid healer? How to heal? Lifecycles?

[Myta]

Life Cocoon is an above average tank cooldown in Legion, it arguably contends with the resto druid cooldown just through sheer brute numbers. People love ignoring that any percentage-based mitigation cooldowns only give effective health as a function of current health.

Let's say your Life Cocoon absorbs around 1.2 million, for pain suppression to match the EHP value of that - your tank needs to be in the condition to take ~3 million damage over the next 8 seconds. That's an absolute thrashing, the case only gets worse with smaller % values, a 20% mitigation would require 6 million damage to approach the EHP given by Life Cocoon. Moreover, Life Cocoon will always be effective, it's an absorb. That also means you can cast it regardless of what health value your tank is at, it's safer to cast a flash-heal equivalent on a tank at dangerously low health than it is to use something like Pain Suppression.

The one case where mitigation cooldowns were better in the past, i.e. bringing high damage intake to manageable levels, is entirely solved when you shit out two free massive HoTs and their mastery procs onto the tank. Even if your bubble gets instantly popped, the next 6 or 7 seconds you have 30-50% extra healing and a ReM on them. There's not a fucking chance someone will die for the next 6 seconds after you use LC.

3 million isn't a lot, in current Alpha at 110 mythic gear levels some tanks barely just have 3mil hp (while Ferals have 5), they are already getting thrashed, now Mythic+ is a completely different ballgame. This is why I have been severely skeptical of Blizzard's stance on BrM with letting them hover around the 35% hp mark. BrM is receiving too much incoming damage in mythics/heroics alone to do this in Alpha. So can a MW expect Life Cocoon (even if it was 1.5mil) to last against 200% damage enraged trash? I said it at the start of Alpha that LC is a CD that puts your hots on the tank, and absorbs 1-2 hits from any reasonable threat on any level of progression you happen to be on, that hasn't changed. LC is much better for of LoHs effect which even other MWs have been forced to accept is true.

Just based on our skills and CDs, there is no way MWs will be viable for the high end Mythic+ keystone levels, at that point any reasonable healer/tank combo goes out then window much like it does now in CMs, you simply go with the tank or healer that has the tools to do the content. That has been reality since the launch of CMs in 2012 and there has to be actual, demonstrable footage of this being not the case to overturn 4 years of what has been reality in tank/healer paradigms. MWs have simply never had the CDs or the throughput to compete at that level. Not in high tier CM content, and not in Mythic+ the damage will simply be too high and the player base will gravitate to the optimal tank/healing combo which doesn't include MW. Maybe that will change between now and release but that's what it'll be like now.

[Supliftz]

You know what's the best damage reduction against enraged trash? A 5 second AoE stun. The great part of this is you can pop life cocoon to absorb the damage and instantly top the tank whilst rolling in and stunning.

The other meme of this is implying mistweaver doesn't have the output. This again shows how little research him/her does on legion monk. Don't worry guys I can talk about the history of the game, like that's fucking irrelevant in legion.

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How about mistweavers now? A tank healer or a raid healer? How to heal? Lifecycles?

raid healer/spot healer. primary tank healer isn't needed in a world where resto druids are the best healers.

[Myta]

You know what's the best damage reduction against enraged trash? A 5 second AoE stun. The great part of this is you can pop life cocoon to absorb the damage and instantly top the tank whilst rolling in and stunning.

Which would sync the trash's auto attack cycles and instantly gib your tank the moment the stun wears off, going to hero to burn down 200%damage/200%hp enraged trash? Good luck next pull. This unfortunate has been the reality of MWs in CMs since 2012 and will be true now, your argument is that we should expect Legion to be completely different and have nothing in common with the past history of extremely tuned 5man content, and that MWs will be fine based on no history of MWs doing well in this content and our toolkit even less capable in Legion than it is in live.

Against a boss the tank will just fold once the boss enrages as you don't even have the hope of burning down 200% damage/hitpoints enraged boss in time, your tank is still going to have to tank that, and LC is still an incredibly awful Tank CD for that, and no amount of hots stapled onto it will save it, it has to be mechanically reworked or gotten rid of, which is unlikely at the time.

P.S. I said months ago LC in this state was an abysmal CD and most of the thread agreed, are you disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing with me or are you going to provide evidence that LC competes with things like HoSac/Ironbark Resto druid? Ironbark when talented is already a better Tank CD than LC ever will be, with a guaranteed buff to your hots during it's duration, and it's available on almost every pull. There's no amount of wishful thinking that can save it, LC is just a horrible CD with a lot of bloat stapled onto it in an attempt to save it. You can deny that and try to convince MWs that LC is a great Tank CD but that's denying reality.

[Rife]

rdruids and hpriests have good tank heals with little commitment

monk only has good tank heals when you commit

That reminds me of what it was like healing as a MW before T18. Especially in 5 mans where you couldn't ignore the tank entirely and let the Hpal/Rdruid cover them.

You either spent chi on the tank and couldn't uplift for a few GCD's or uplifted the group and couldn't give the tank any real heals for a few GCD's unless you had stacks of chi brew sitting there.

I hated that playstyle. It was one of the major complaints going into WoD, especially in regards to CM healing. Sigh.

[Supliftz]

Which would sync the trash's auto attack cycles and instantly gib your tank the moment the stun wears off, going to hero to burn down 200%damage/200%hp enraged trash? Good luck next pull. This unfortunate has been the reality of MWs in CMs since 2012 and will be true now, your argument is that we should expect Legion to be completely different and have nothing in common with the past history of extremely tuned 5man content, and that MWs will be fine based on no history of MWs doing well in this content and our toolkit even less capable in Legion than it is in live.

But you can always kite away from the mobs if this situation arises. Leg Sweep is also on a short enough cooldown to where you can do this almost every trash pack.

Anyway, it's completely fine to expect something different out of CM viability, because mistweaver's viability in cms has changed every expansion. Mistweavers were actually one of the better healers at dealing with CMs in MoP because healing spheres were strong enough at dealing with any damage pattern. Once it was removed mistweaver obviously didn't do so well in WoD CM's (although all healers were extremely underpowered in CM's as the expansion went on). What really matters is if mistweavers can clear the content, and Mistweaver is in the best position possible to clear CMs. Mistweaver is in the unique position of being the only healer with an AoE Slow, a low cooldown AoE stun, hard crowd control, strong group healing/St healing, and a decent tank cooldown.

The only similar comparison of group strengths you can make is Resto Shaman, and they do not offer an AoE slow and stun at the same time. Shaman also lack tools of being able to heal through the damage, which Mistweavers do not face.

So while other healers have strengths in CM's (like mind control for disc priests) they come with significant trade offs, mistweavers has far less trade-offs than most healers, and offer some of the most useful tools in a 5 man setting.

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Against a boss the tank will just fold once the boss enrages as you don't even have the hope of burning down 200% damage/hitpoints enraged boss in time, your tank is still going to have to tank that, and LC is still an incredibly awful Tank CD for that, and no amount of hots stapled onto it will save it, it has to be mechanically reworked or gotten rid of, which is unlikely at the time.

But it's really not. Most other tank cooldowns are worse than Life Cocoon. Reglitch's math was only taking into account the actual absorb of life cocoon, and disregarding the fact it gives you two mastery procs which are 50%(you always take mist wrap) stronger and give you two powerful hots.

Life Cocoon is also in the unique position of being a strong tank cooldown regardless of the tank's hp. Pain Sup could in theory outheal the absorb of life cocoon, but if you fail to react and the tank is already at 30%, it's very weak in comparison. Life Cocoon actually becomes the best tank cd in the game if you use it on a tank @20% hp. Simply because you'll instantly top them and give the group a buffer with the large absorb/hots.

The only tank cd in the game that's clearly superior is Ironbark, and we all know resto druids are extremely overpowered in general on the alpha, and ironbark will likely be looked at.

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P.S. I said months ago LC in this state was an abysmal CD and most of the thread agreed, are you disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing with me or are you going to provide evidence that LC competes with things like HoSac/Ironbark Resto druid? Ironbark when talented is already a better Tank CD than LC ever will be, with a guaranteed buff to your hots during it's duration, and it's available on almost every pull. There's no amount of wishful thinking that can save it, LC is just a horrible CD with a lot of bloat stapled onto it in an attempt to save it. You can deny that and try to convince MWs that LC is a great Tank CD but that's denying reality.

For one, I believe you should change your opinion if evidence is shown to support something. Circlejerking that Life cocoon is always a bad cooldown, and ignoring all the factors going into it (and surronding it) is simply just putting your head in the sand.

The evidence is already out there that hand of sacrifice without the glyph is a terrible tank cooldown. If you simply read any holy paladin feedback thread and observe logs, you can come to this conclusion. It's the worst tank cd in the game, which will -actually- kill you if you use it on any boss with an enrage + AoE damage. It would be consumed almost instantly, and you'll be at 20% hp being unable to top yourself up for the AoE damage. It's completely outclassed by every other tank cooldown in the game.

Btw I never actually argued that life cocoon is better than ironbark in a 5 man setting, it's obvious to everyone. It's clearly one of the major reasons why resto druid is causing every other healer in the game in a 5 man setting to become irrelevant. What people like myself and reglitch are suggesting is Life Cocoon is one of the better tank cds out there, because every other tank cd in the game was massively nerfed, and all of life cocoon's problems have been fixed in Legion. You're the one who's actually denying reality because you refuse to accept that you're actually clueless about mistweaver.

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That reminds me of what it was like healing as a MW before T18. Especially in 5 mans where you couldn't ignore the tank entirely and let the Hpal/Rdruid cover them.

You either spent chi on the tank and couldn't uplift for a few GCD's or uplifted the group and couldn't give the tank any real heals for a few GCD's unless you had stacks of chi brew sitting there.

I hated that playstyle. It was one of the major complaints going into WoD, especially in regards to CM healing. Sigh.

But it's really not even an issue. Monks contribute far more hps than they did in WoD to the tanks in legion. If you attempt to always keep renewing mist on the tank, and cast vivify/effuse off them, you'll contribute significant tank hps. However, you'll simply contribute far less than a resto druid.

[cqwrteur]

Btw I never actually argued that life cocoon is better than ironbark in a 5 man setting, it's obvious to everyone. It's clearly one of the major reasons why resto druid is causing every other healer in the game in a 5 man setting to become irrelevant. What people like myself and reglitch are suggesting is Life Cocoon is one of the better tank cds out there, because every other tank cd in the game was massively nerfed, and all of life cocoon's problems have been fixed in Legion.

So LC will not disappear after a large amount hit?

[Myta]

But you can always kite away from the mobs if this situation arises. Leg Sweep is also on a short enough cooldown to where you can do this almost every trash pack.

Anyway, it's completely fine to expect something different out of CM viability, because mistweaver's viability in cms has changed every expansion. Mistweavers were actually one of the better healers at dealing with CMs in MoP because healing spheres were strong enough at dealing with any damage pattern. Once it was removed mistweaver obviously didn't do so well in WoD CM's (although all healers were extremely underpowered in CM's as the expansion went on). What really matters is if mistweavers can clear the content, and Mistweaver is in the best position possible to clear CMs. Mistweaver is in the unique position of being the only healer with an AoE Slow, a low cooldown AoE stun, hard crowd control, strong group healing/St healing, and a decent tank cooldown.

You're being a optimist that Blizzard means what they say this time. I'm looking at things historically and how Blizzard has said that players will be more survivable and that we won't devolve into bouncy health bar nonsense we've had since end of TBC. If Blizzard is true and it turns out that in Legion even to the end of the expac players are more survivable, Tanks aren't having to absorb swings that hit for more HP than they have, then yes Life Cocoon will be very strong.

I have to be a pessimist/realist here and say every time they've tried this it's failed, and LC requires damage to be reasonable to be strong, otherwise % based CDs pull ahead immensely. We might have fun with this for the first month of the xpac until Mythics come out and we're right back to where we were in WoD, because I can only base things off what things have been like in the past.

For one, I believe you should change your opinion if evidence is shown to support something. Circlejerking that Life cocoon is always a bad cooldown, and ignoring all the factors going into it (and surronding it) is simply just putting your head in the sand.

I am merely seconding what other raiding MWs have said themselves, even factoring Alpha changes as they are now. Is there a reason to be concerned MWs won't entirely live up to the praise Lore has put on us? Absolutely. I've been trying to get into actual substantive discussions for months about fixes we could make (I even suggested Life Cocoon giving 2 buffs, one being the absorb, the other being the HoT buff which would fix that CD and restore it to it's intended purpose) and the well has been poisoned every time.

It's worth talking about these things, and personally I think that there's been too much shutting down of discussion in this thread that for months have prevented us from giving Blizzard reasonable feedback to fix these issues and now it's too late. We just have to hope that this is the first xpac where Blizzard sticks to their guns and actually balances healing and incoming damage throughout the xpac.

[Floopa]

i would say LC is:

a) great in 5 mans
b) insane in raids on guardian druids
c) average on other tanks
d) great to LoH dps if they're in trouble
e) has a very generous CD

i think LC's biggest power is that it'll now act as a LoH, so it's very versatile.

[Geodew]

What happened to what someone said like 30 pages ago, that LC was getting 2-shot in raids? Now Sup's saying 3-4? Which is it? Lol

[Supliftz]

You're being a optimist that Blizzard means what they say this time. I'm looking at things historically and how Blizzard has said that players will be more survivable and that we won't devolve into bouncy health bar nonsense we've had since end of TBC. If Blizzard is true and it turns out that in Legion even to the end of the expac players are more survivable, Tanks aren't having to absorb swings that hit for more HP than they have, then yes Life Cocoon will be very strong.

You do realize even if life cocoon is absorbed in 1 swing, the tank isn't going to die for 6 seconds? Do you understand how powerful applying enveloping mist is? Do you also realize that most other classes in the game can't handle that type of damage. If you're a disc priest and the tank is taking their whole hp bar in damage, all you can do is mindlessly spam shadow mend and pray no one else in the game takes damage.

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I have to be a pessimist/realist here and say every time they've tried this it's failed, and LC requires damage to be reasonable to be strong, otherwise % based CDs pull ahead immensely. We might have fun with this for the first month of the xpac until Mythics come out and we're right back to where we were in WoD, because I can only base things off what things have been like in the past.

Yeah but only this time most healers can't handle the tanks being 1 shot in a white hit, because tank cds are so weak in general. But like I keep saying, monk has more tools now to handle this than ever before.

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I am merely seconding what other raiding MWs have said themselves, even factoring Alpha changes as they are now. Is there a reason to be concerned MWs won't entirely live up to the praise Lore has put on us? Absolutely. I've been trying to get into actual substantive discussions for months about fixes we could make (I even suggested Life Cocoon giving 2 buffs, one being the absorb, the other being the HoT buff which would fix that CD and restore it to it's intended purpose) and the well has been poisoned every time.

Most raiding mistweavers in this thread argued that monk had no utility in WoD. Take that how you will.

I agree with you there's some concerns about mistweaver going into legion. But those concerns are simply not about life cocoon. All of life cocoon's problems were fixed going into legion, and we have more pressing concerns to worry about.

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i would say LC is:

a) great in 5 mans
b) insane in raids on guardian druids
c) average on other tanks
d) great to LoH dps if they're in trouble
e) has a very generous CD

i think LC's biggest power is that it'll now act as a LoH, so it's very versatile.

Sure but you have to compare life cocoon to other tank cds. Against most other tank cds, life cocoon is going to outperform, whilst also doubling as a LoH. Although now that we know the strength of life cocoon, I doubt we'll use it as a LoH. Sheilun's kinda fills that role.

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What happened to what someone said like 30 pages ago, that LC was getting 2-shot in raids? Now Sup's saying 3-4? Which is it? Lol

In Ursoc raid tests my Life Cocoon was surviving for anywhere between 2-3 white hits (mostly depends on the type of tank, guardians take 1-2 swings for LC to fall off, DH's take 3). It also instantly topped the tank. Life Cocoon excels on that type of encounter because the damage is extremely bursty.

[Peachpies]

The white hits on Ursoc are not a big problem though. If you look at when tanks are taking dangerous damage it would go away almost instantly every time. As a tank cooldown it is pretty bad in raids. If you use it and it is staying on the target for awhile than you didn't need to use it in the first place and a regular heal would have sufficed.

[Deleted]

Alright, so if you guys can end the LC discussion, how about we introduce a better topic. Monk needs utility, it's obvious. What utility would you guys like to see?

[Floopa]

Alright, so if you guys can end the LC discussion, how about we introduce a better topic. Monk needs utility, it's obvious. What utility would you guys like to see?

Rallying Cry

[Deleted]

Complaining that LC could get popped quickly is nonsense, that's worst case scenario and as I've said the Enveloping + Rem and double proc mastery means your tank is not dying for 6 seconds unless they literally get one shot. You have the strongest non-cd single target heal on them, combined with the strongest throw-away HoT, and all the while you're doing 30% to 50% more healing to that target.

That's worst case scenario, and that's a completely acceptable trade off for such a huge absorb. There is nothing like it in the game anymore, a best-case scenario PW:S only absorbs for around 20% as much as a Life Cocoon. There's not another cooldown in the game that's even comparable.

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The white hits on Ursoc are not a big problem though. If you look at when tanks are taking dangerous damage it would go away almost instantly every time. As a tank cooldown it is pretty bad in raids. If you use it and it is staying on the target for awhile than you didn't need to use it in the first place and a regular heal would have sufficed.

If you use the cooldown poorly of course it's going to be bad

[Supliftz]

Alright, so if you guys can end the LC discussion, how about we introduce a better topic. Monk needs utility, it's obvious. What utility would you guys like to see?

The class needs utility that's useful in a raid setting. So something like hymn of hope or rallying would be good enough.

[cqwrteur]

The class needs utility that's useful in a raid setting. So something like hymn of hope or rallying would be good enough.

However, many people would complain about homogenization if every healer has utility. It also leads to a wrong direction that utilities of healers would become more and more. It also confused people what niche does mistweaver have.

Giving more hps to mistweaver would be better, imo.

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What's the rotation of mistweaver now? RJW + Vivify spam?