[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Deleted]

In the books Doran mentions that Dorne has the smallest army of the Seven Kingdoms (not sure if he counts Iron Islands there, can't imagine Ironborn having a very big proper army, just raiders). Dorne however is easily defendable with chokepoints and guerilla warfare so Dorne would be hard to conquer, but would be weak if their armies had to go fight elsewhere.

The biggest army in Westeros most likely means Tyrells.

Well that settles it I have to read the books again, I forgot loads of shit.
Yes the biggest army is the Tyrells, but why would Jaime say "Second biggest" in that case?

And Dorne having a small army makes the sand snakes (in the show) even worse than they are. Because they mean to go to war against the two biggest armies in Westeros, with a small army? Shit they are duuuuumb.

[eschatological]

Well that settles it I have to read the books again, I forgot loads of shit.
Yes the biggest army is the Tyrells, but why would Jaime say "Second biggest" in that case?

And Dorne having a small army makes the sand snakes (in the show) even worse than they are. Because they mean to go to war against the two biggest armies in Westeros, with a small army? Shit they are duuuuumb.

I think the assumption is that the North would always have the biggest army? Maybe? Like, if Bolton could get all the Northern houses to fall in behind his banners?

Maybe that reference is because now Sansa and Jon are going to be at the head of that "biggest army."

[Deleted]

What? Viserys is the biggest victim in this entire show.

He did see his mother die giving birth to dany.
His father died, his big bro died, he had to flee to essos and take care of his sister.
He didn't have an easy life at all.

He even says it in the show "No on ever gave me what they gave to Dany in that tent. They love her."
He wasn't really loved, his father was already batshit crazy the time he was born, he spend his life as a runaway, saw the fall of his family. Quite understandable that it drives a young man crazy.

In the end he wasn't a nice guy, all he wanted was the crown. But he might not have turned like that

[Deleted]

Well that settles it I have to read the books again, I forgot loads of shit.
Yes the biggest army is the Tyrells, but why would Jaime say "Second biggest" in that case?

And Dorne having a small army makes the sand snakes (in the show) even worse than they are. Because they mean to go to war against the two biggest armies in Westeros, with a small army? Shit they are duuuuumb.

He said "You have the second biggest army camped outside Kings Landing" while speaking to Ollena Tyrell, as in, The Tyrells have it.

The largest will more than likely be the Vale because they haven't been fighting wars for the last who knows how many years.

- - - Updated - - -

I think the assumption is that the North would always have the biggest army? Maybe? Like, if Bolton could get all the Northern houses to fall in behind his banners?

Maybe that reference is because now Sansa and Jon are going to be at the head of that "biggest army."

The North might be the largest of the seven kingdoms but there is no way the North currently has the largest army after losing a huge chunk of it at the Red Wedding and then losing more to the Ironborn.

[Deleted]

I think the assumption is that the North would always have the biggest army? Maybe? Like, if Bolton could get all the Northern houses to fall in behind his banners?

Maybe that reference is because now Sansa and Jon are going to be at the head of that "biggest army."

All the North thinks Sansa is married to Ramsay and Jon is still Lord Commander. They have no idea it's not the case anymore for the latter, and that Sansa ran away. So Jaime can't just speculate on that.

The North lost a shitload of troops at the Red Wedding.
The only full forces left are:
-Bolton
-Frey
-Karstark
-Lords of the Vale
-Iron born.

The Iron born fight for themselves only.
Even if you combine Bolton+Frey+Karstark you would get maybe 10k men. The Tyrells have 100k I think (it's said somewhere in the show, I think it's when they flock to Renly)
Robb hardly managed to get 20K when he was fighting the Lannisters, and he had the North with him. He was very far from the Tyrell army.

[Mavick]

I thought the overall episode was pretty good, didn't like the last Dany scene (and not because she's immune to fire, idgaf about that). Some thoughts:

1) I hope Tormund and Brienne don't become a thing. That was cringey.

2) I thought the reunion with Jon and Sansa went well.

3) Someone mentioned that it seemed clear that LF's plan now is made clear, he wanted to use it as an excuse to push the Vale into war with the Boltons. However, I think taking Sansa to one of the Stark-loyal Northern Houses and fomenting a rebellion would have achieved the same goals. Manipulating Sweet Robin isn't exactly rocket surgery. To me, the play with Sansa was a complete gamble. Which, btw, he would have lost if Theon didn't help her escape - so I think there's still room to criticize the validity of his plan. No doubt someone will claim Sansa's escape was all part of Littlefinger's master plan.

4) I'm glad LF's scene didn't end with Royce out the moon door. Instead, LF played the game nicely and ensured his complete loyalty for fear of death. It makes Royce look a little dumb for not seeing through LF sooner, but being a Knight of the Vale doesn't guarantee intelligence.

5) For a guy with a jet pack, LF took his sweet ass time getting back to the Vale from Winterfell last season. I wish it didn't bother me, but the first thing I thought was, "Dude, has this guy been on the road from Winterfell since last season when he skipped between KL and the North with ease?"

5) I wonder if Rickon is with the Boltons now to justify the Pink Letter. He had to do something to push Jon into coming to battle, and in the books it was that he had "Arya" captive as his wife. HE not only doesn't have Sansa in the show, but she's already at CB with Jon.



6) And this is why I didn't like the Dany scene. Everything she did in that scene was reckless, stupid, and naive. Jorah and Daario got in without being seen, they probably could have gotten out without being seen, but Dany just decided that it wasn't possible, and decided to burn all the khals. And Daario and Jorah instantly were like, "Gee, okay, sure thing Khaleesi." To me, the scene showed me how weak and petty she is, and her brutality is a show of her oncoming madness. Not to mention the Dothraki response to all their khals being murdered is ludicrously bad, considering this is a superstitious society afraid of not only magic, but the salt water sea. Disregarding the argument about whether or not she should be immune to fire, again, people bow to her not because of her own personal ideology or strength, but because of some random ability to not be burnt. That ability didn't come from her strength as a person, it came from....well, we don't know where it comes from in the show, but I'm guessing through prophecy and/or magic. Which isn't a show of her strength.

I just find it hilarious that most people saw that scene as a scene of her being a badass. When I saw that scene, I was like, "Yep, this is where she starts to go mad." Her whole speech inside the Temple could have easily been out of the mouth of Aerys the Mad King.

I disagree pretty hard with your last two paragraphs. She just killed all the Khal's and it's been noted time and time again that the Dothraki follow strength above all else. That's a pretty strong act to kill every leader and walk out unharmed. I don't think there's any precedent in Dothraki society for viewing someone who kills a Khal as a murderer, and if the scenes from season 1 are any indication, Dothraki regularly rise up to challenge the Khal. In this case, Dany took on all the Khals at once and won in spectacular fashion. Their natural reaction is now to follow her.

[Deleted]

I disagree pretty hard with your last two paragraphs. She just killed all the Khal's and it's been noted time and time again that the Dothraki follow strength above all else. That's a pretty strong act to kill every leader and walk out unharmed. I don't think there's any precedent in Dothraki society for viewing someone who kills a Khal as a murderer, and if the scenes from season 1 are any indication, Dothraki regularly rise up to challenge the Khal. In this case, Dany took on all the Khals at once and won in spectacular fashion. Their natural reaction is now to follow her.

Yep, the incredibly patriarchal society will just bend over backwards because someone can not be burned.

[Mavick]

Well that settles it I have to read the books again, I forgot loads of shit.
Yes the biggest army is the Tyrells, but why would Jaime say "Second biggest" in that case?

And Dorne having a small army makes the sand snakes (in the show) even worse than they are. Because they mean to go to war against the two biggest armies in Westeros, with a small army? Shit they are duuuuumb.

The Lannister's (meaning Kevan, now the leader of House Lannister) have the 2nd largest army.

- - - Updated - - -

Yep, the incredibly patriarchal society will just bend over backwards because someone can not be burned.

Patriarchal but also highly superstitious. Besides, if the theory that a man is always stronger than a woman they just saw hard proof that isn't always the case. Even the most simplest and backwards minds could grasp that one, I'm sure.

- - - Updated - - -

I think the assumption is that the North would always have the biggest army? Maybe? Like, if Bolton could get all the Northern houses to fall in behind his banners?

Maybe that reference is because now Sansa and Jon are going to be at the head of that "biggest army."

Even at the height of their power, under Robb, the combined forces of the north were heavily outnumbered by the Lannisters due to their wealth and ability to fund a much larger army. I think a more accurate way of looking at the north is that while geographically larger than everyone else combined it's also a ton of wilderness as opposed to the highly populated areas of the south.

[Deleted]

The Lannister's (meaning Kevan, now the leader of House Lannister) have the 2nd largest army.

But he said that sentence to Olenna. Which would make the Lannister the third army in Westeros. The Lannisters don't have a bigger army than the Tyrells.

[Deleted]

Patriarchal but also highly superstitious. Besides, if the theory that a man is always stronger than a woman they just saw hard proof that isn't always the case. Even the most simplest and backwards minds could grasp that one, I'm sure

They are superstitious yes. They've just basically seen a witch kill there leaders, and the first thing they do is bow down?

[Mavick]

But he said that sentence to Olenna. Which would make the Lannister the third army in Westeros. The Lannisters don't have a bigger army than the Tyrells.

What makes you think the Lannister's don't have a bigger army? They were widely known to have the largest army at the start of the series, and for all intents and purposes they won that stage of the war. If what you're saying is true then it does indeed sound like Lannister's are still number #1 and Tyrell's at number #2, which basically mimics everything the show has said all along referencing Cersei's comments to Margarey.

[Deleted]

I don't really get all the, "Dany hasn't done anything to be in power!" stuff.

I mean, from the perspective of the show viewer, she's one of the few who actually HAS done anything to get into power. Almost everyone else that we've been shown was just born into their position and largely rests on their laurels or plays political games occasionally.

People talk about, "Oh, she just gets attention because she's hot" or "She only gets respect because of some fire immunity crap." well...ok...why do any of the other nobles in the show get respect or attention? Because they were born into rich/noble families? Wow, that's so much more interesting.

The other houses have been fighting battles to get/keep power.
you got the roles reversed there.

You say she is the only one that has done anything to get in power? All I see her do is spam her titles whenever she sees someone, I don't count that as doing anything.
- She lost her Khal and his Khaleesar by being stupid.
- She got the Unsullied because she was lucky enough to have dragons
- She go Daario because she is hot (and the second sons also in that case)
- She still managed to get stuck in Essos and did nothing towards getting "her" throne back.

On the other side, the Lannisters, The Tyrells, Littlefinger, the Boltons, have all been fighting/plotting to get some power, and access the throne. And they all succeeded:
- The Lannisters have the King
- The Tyrells have a Queen (imprisoned atm but still queen)
- The Boltons have the North
- Littlefinger went from brothel keep, to Uncle of the Lord of the Vale thanks to war plotting.

They have achieved way more than Dany, and they all did it because of skills. Not sheer luck of having Dragons or being hot.

Edit: You say that other nobles only get respect because of their name.
Illyrio Mopathis and Varys only helped Dany because she is the last Targaryen. No other reason. Therefore she is exactly like the other Lords you seem to despise.
Without her name, she doesn't get Illyrio's help. Without his help she gets no dragons. Without dragons she just dies outside of Quarth. End of story.

Dany was saved by her beauty and her name. Not by skill.

[Mavick]

They are superstitious yes. They've just basically seen a witch kill there leaders, and the first thing they do is bow down?

I think you're trying to find the wrong terms it to fit your theory. They could just view her as god-like, much like the wildlings thought of Jon Snow. No need to bring witchcraft into it.

[Wilian]

He did see his mother die giving birth to dany.
His father died, his big bro died, he had to flee to essos and take care of his sister.
He didn't have an easy life at all.

He even says it in the show "No on ever gave me what they gave to Dany in that tent. They love her."
He wasn't really loved, his father was already batshit crazy the time he was born, he spend his life as a runaway, saw the fall of his family. Quite understandable that it drives a young man crazy.

In the end he wasn't a nice guy, all he wanted was the crown. But he might not have turned like that

To further elaborate.

-Born into Royalty but his entire life got destroyed when his brother decided to fuck "some slut" from abroad while he was just a child
-Father was an insane psychopath
-Forced to flee from home because of marauding hordes that attacked his home
-Lost his mother to whom he was strongly attached when she gave birth to his sister
-Had to live in exile and poverty while having to also take care of his sister
-Had to endure constant humiliation while struggling with life as a teenager
-Was forced to sell the only memento left from his mother(the crown) just to feed himself and his sister (If he was a bad guy he could have just sold Dany to a whorehouse in Lys and went to live by himself)
-Was used as a puppet by greedy traders people in their schemes
-Agreed to give off his sister(on whom he had "patriarchal" claims as per the cultural norm) in marriage to a savage warlord in exchange for an army
-Upheld his end of the deal
-got reasonably upset when the horsefucker didn't plan to uphold his part at all
-a knight that swore fealty to him decided to abandon his side because he was a thirsty beta that wanted to suck his sister's toes
-got murdered while the sister that he cared for his whole life did nothing to stop it

[Therougetitan]

So what happens if Daenerys brings the Dothraki to Westeros? Sure she leads them but can she change their very culture? 100,000 members of a society where pillaging and raping is common and they will be led to new ripe lands.

[Mavick]

So what happens if Daenerys brings the Dothraki to Westeros? Sure she leads them but can she change their very culture? 100,000 members of a society where pillaging and raping is common and they will be led to new ripe lands.

I don't think the pillaging and raping is at all different from Westerosi conquering tradition sadly. But on the other hand, I'm pretty sure Dany is not going to allow it. She already stood up to one Khal on that point in the first season.

[Deleted]

What makes you think the Lannister's don't have a bigger army? They were widely known to have the largest army at the start of the series, and for all intents and purposes they won that stage of the war. If what you're saying is true then it does indeed sound like Lannister's are still number #1 and Tyrell's at number #2, which basically mimics everything the show has said all along referencing Cersei's comments to Margarey.

No cersei says that the Tyrell are the second wealthiest family in Westeros, which is true, because the Lannister are the richest family. She never talks about armies.
The Lannister army lost all their battles against Robb and his 20k men. Meanwhile Renly had nearly a 100k, largely thanks to the Tyrell army that flocked to his side. He didn't have much other Bannerman, because they were already split with Stannis.
Next to that Tyrell had nearly no losses in the war of the five kings, whereas the Lannisters lost at lot to Robb.

That would mean that Tywin had minimum 80k men and still lost battles to Robb. Which would make that quite pathetic because Tywin is a good military leader.

[Deleted]

I think you're trying to find the wrong terms it to fit your theory. They could just view her as god-like, much like the wildlings thought of Jon Snow. No need to bring witchcraft into it.

What other word would you use for someone who just walked out of fire? Especially from the mindset of the Dothraki?

The Wildlings already knew Jon Snow, he led them South of the wall, and they have the likes of Tormund who will vouch for Jon, who'll vouch for Dany? The Dosh Khaleen?

[Mavick]

No cersei says that the Tyrell are the second wealthiest family in Westeros, which is true, because the Lannister are the richest family. She never talks about armies.
The Lannister army lost all their battles against Robb and his 20k men. Meanwhile Renly had nearly a 100k, largely thanks to the Tyrell army that flocked to his side. He didn't have much other Bannerman, because they were already split with Stannis.
Next to that Tyrell had nearly no losses in the war of the five kings, whereas the Lannisters lost at lot to Robb.

That would mean that Tywin had minimum 80k men and still lost battles to Robb. Which would make that quite pathetic because Tywin is a good military leader.

I think it was more phrased as "powerful", not just wealthier, although in almost every sense that equates directly to power. That also includes armies. So regardless of the terminology, you know as well as I do that in this world wealth=power=armies.

And time and time again it was mentioned that Robb's forces were always outnumbered but won through superior strategy. In point of fact, Tywin even had multiple armies in multiple places. That much is made clear in the very first battle where Robb feinted attacking one army and went for another.

Renly's forces were a combination of Baratheon bannermen AND Tyrell's, who were only a portion of that. In fact, when Renly's bannermen (exluding Tyrell's, who just left) went to Stannis he instantly had a vast superiority over the forces in King's Landing. So I wouldn't say the Tyrell's were necessarily the bulk of his forces then.

[Sooba]

I thought the overall episode was pretty good, didn't like the last Dany scene (and not because she's immune to fire, idgaf about that). Some thoughts:

1) I hope Tormund and Brienne don't become a thing. That was cringey.





4) I'm glad LF's scene didn't end with Royce out the moon door. Instead, LF played the game nicely and ensured his complete loyalty for fear of death. It makes Royce look a little dumb for not seeing through LF sooner, but being a Knight of the Vale doesn't guarantee intelligence.




6) And this is why I didn't like the Dany scene. Everything she did in that scene was reckless, stupid, and naive. Jorah and Daario got in without being seen, they probably could have gotten out without being seen, but Dany just decided that it wasn't possible, and decided to burn all the khals. And Daario and Jorah instantly were like, "Gee, okay, sure thing Khaleesi." To me, the scene showed me how weak and petty she is, and her brutality is a show of her oncoming madness. Not to mention the Dothraki response to all their khals being murdered is ludicrously bad, considering this is a superstitious society afraid of not only magic, but the salt water sea. Disregarding the argument about whether or not she should be immune to fire, again, people bow to her not because of her own personal ideology or strength, but because of some random ability to not be burnt. That ability didn't come from her strength as a person, it came from....well, we don't know where it comes from in the show, but I'm guessing through prophecy and/or magic. Which isn't a show of her strength.

I just find it hilarious that most people saw that scene as a scene of her being a badass. When I saw that scene, I was like, "Yep, this is where she starts to go mad." Her whole speech inside the Temple could have easily been out of the mouth of Aerys the Mad King.

6) I'll give it some more time before I comment much on it. I do agree that her character arc hasn't really had the growth of Arya, Sansa, Bran, Jon etc. As I've said before though, I didn't really "fall in love" with Dany in S1 and consequently haven't had the same impatience or irritation with her storyline.

4) Nestor was the less intelligent of the Royces as I recall, although I'm not sure if they're going to bring Bronze Yahn into the show.

1) Really? I mean, to each their own, but that moment had me laughing out loud. It just seemed so in character for both of them. Tormund never met a warrior he didn't want to fight or a woman he didn't want to fuck. He's clearly completely confused by the competing instincts. She in turn isn't exactly used to being objectified and isn't sure how to react to him. And it was all communicated in a long glance or two. I thought it was perfect.

Edit: Oh! And as I recall, in the books Alys Karstark gets married off to the Magnar of Thenn, with an amusingly sexually assertive Alys surprising a suddenly shy Magnar during the vows. Jon takes the opportunity to create a new noble Northern house with their union.

Now the impetus isn't there as the characters would be different; (Jon was saving Alys from a bad marriage to Cregan Karstark who she hated. She took a liking to the Magnar and so Jon figured he might as well kill two birds with one stone.) However, the show writers might take inspiration from it. Not likely, but an amusing possibility.