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  1. #1
    High Overlord Lionpaw's Avatar
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    Thumbs up [LEGION] What is your GUT telling you? FIRE/ARCANE/FROST? [DPS][PvE][Raiding]

    I know this is pure speculation, and I am also conscious of the fact that we can't use the current numbers on the alpha/beta as an indication for where any of the specs will be once the dust settles.

    Nevertheless, how do you THINK the specs will stack up against one another when it comes to pure DPS output in high tier endgame raiding?

    Also give your reasons why.

    e.g.

    1. Arcane: 1,000,000 DPS - Based on previous tiers of raiding content, Arcane has always been the true glass canon spec with severe moility and AoE issues. I believe they will compensate this spec with big D DPS to make up for their shortcomings.

    2. Fire: 973,000 DPS - Blizzard loves fire mages They will never be far behind Arcane on single target which is Arcane's niche and their AoE and cleaving capabilities will be godlike.

    3. Frost: 417,300 DPS - Frost has never been a top tier Mage spec for PvE/Raiding. I don't foresee it happening ever. All the slows and control mechanisms still baked into most of the mechanics makes me reminiscent of when it was pigeonholed as a purely PvP spec. This is a shame since thematically and aesthetically I prefer Frost Mages.


    Nevertheless, I will always min max and choose the spec which does the most damage to the boss.

  2. #2
    Tuning literally just started last patch, so don't expect any numbers to be release ready. I can't emphasize enough how badly WoD tuning was leading up to two weeks before and they still botched the hell out of some specs and had to tune them the first few weeks after release (Ele Shaman undertuned/ WW Monk overtuned are primary examples).

    Frost was best raiding spec for Highmaul and Frost was best progression spec for HFC. Once legendary rings started getting upgraded and players got their hands on set bonuses and class trinkets, the Arcane Burst wins - but is tied to RNG and having your raid's DPS be strong enough to power through mechanics.

    Right now - play what you think is cool. All three specs received some quality changes. Arcane even has AoE that isn't laughable now.

  3. #3
    Deleted
    Blizzard loves fire mages so much they decided to gut any form of effort from the spec.

    OT: Killed my mage (or my sub) and don't plan on playing it in Legion, it's lost all flavor for me sadly. I did enjoy frost this tier a bit though.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by khali View Post
    OT: Killed my mage (or my sub) and don't plan on playing it in Legion, it's lost all flavor for me sadly
    seconding that, shame that the developers idea of class fantasy had to involve removing 90% of the things I enjoy about playing fire and frost
    Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2016-05-16 at 06:13 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    seconding that, shame that the developers idea of class fantasy had to involve removing 90% of the things I enjoy about playing fire and frost
    Thank god they removed the godawful combustion shit that plagued Fire since Cataclysm. It was absolutely unfun to be at complete mercy of rng, and be completely scammed of dps if you botched it. Detaching spreading from Inferno Blast is amazing too, since these were 2 completely different functions (spreading and forcing hot streak) that made for a completely awkward situations. Whoever Fire spec will lose from overreacting players, it will definitely gain in people trying it and not be deterred by unintuitive mess of mechanics.

    Also, was a lost Frostfire Bolt really equal to 90% of your frost enjoyment? If so, I doubt you were a frost enthusiast in the first place.

  6. #6
    My gut is telling me not to rely on my gut. It is for eating, not for thinking.

  7. #7
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tirilka View Post
    -snip
    Do you think the lose of control of dot spreading, 12 sec duration before LB spreads and Pyro! spam is interesting gameplay, then I doubt you were a fire enthusiast in the first place I'd rather be at the mercy of some rng rather than do nothing except dump procs over and over again, if I wanted that I'd play 6.0 frost. Combustion may be shit, but I'd prefer to have a turd and interactive gameplay than no turd and a shitload of toiletpaper. Try it all you want, but you can bet if you care less for numbers, you're going to be bored fast.

  8. #8
    I agree with Frost1129 comment but if you really want to know what my gut's feeling then it's feeling that Fire would be pretty insane in the first tier and then nerfed to the ground the next tier.

  9. #9
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Not in beta, but Fire looks like all flash and pretty screwed substance.

    Arcane looks like the most interesting spec of the three we have, so I will be going Arcane for the expansion (at first...I could find I am not thrilled by Arcane)

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by khali View Post
    Do you think the lose of control of dot spreading, 12 sec duration before LB spreads and Pyro! spam is interesting gameplay, then I doubt you were a fire enthusiast in the first place I'd rather be at the mercy of some rng rather than do nothing except dump procs over and over again, if I wanted that I'd play 6.0 frost. Combustion may be shit, but I'd prefer to have a turd and interactive gameplay than no turd and a shitload of toiletpaper. Try it all you want, but you can bet if you care less for numbers, you're going to be bored fast.
    Ignite is spreading just fine on itself, exponentially - precisely like a wildfire. My thoughts on LB are discussed in another thread, but shortly - I don't care, I can accept it as a mostly single target ability now. Pyro! spam - with such a basic description, does it really differ from live? After all, you "spam Pyro" and fireball too, in essence.
    And I never was a fire enthusiast in the first place, why the hell would I be? It annoyed me to no extent.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tirilka View Post
    Ignite is spreading just fine on itself, exponentially - precisely like a wildfire. My thoughts on LB are discussed in another thread, but shortly - I don't care, I can accept it as a mostly single target ability now. Pyro! spam - with such a basic description, does it really differ from live? After all, you "spam Pyro" and fireball too, in essence.
    And I never was a fire enthusiast in the first place, why the hell would I be? It annoyed me to no extent.
    On live you fire FB & Pyro! to stack ignite for Combustion dot, in Legion you fire FB and Pyro! for...blank damage and ignite, sure seems interesting. /s
    So you never really liked fire in its current iteration, hey guess what? Neither do most of us, but the legion alternative is worse as you have nothing to do other than spam procs and filler, no interaction with your dots, no control over your dots (when you can spread and explode living bomb back to back and watch the fireworks go off, it's pretty satisfying but that's not possible in legion.) So yeah, new expac and fire loses more than it gains, what it lost has not (imo) been replaced with something useful or anything really other than PX from artifact.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by khali View Post
    On live you fire FB & Pyro! to stack ignite for Combustion dot, in Legion you fire FB and Pyro! for...blank damage and ignite, sure seems interesting. /s
    So you never really liked fire in its current iteration, hey guess what? Neither do most of us, but the legion alternative is worse as you have nothing to do other than spam procs and filler, no interaction with your dots, no control over your dots (when you can spread and explode living bomb back to back and watch the fireworks go off, it's pretty satisfying but that's not possible in legion.) So yeah, new expac and fire loses more than it gains, what it lost has not (imo) been replaced with something useful or anything really other than PX from artifact.
    Well, I feel like Fire has lost the bad stuff that made it unattractive, you think it lost the redeeming qualities that outweighed Combustion being bad. I think it gained enough in replacement, you don't. I guess we have directly opposite opinions where each thinks that the very thing that the other thinks to be bad is good, and vice versa. Oh well, it was all off-topic anyway.

    I think Arcane gonna be top tier.. again. The sheer amount of dps mechanics and utility is far outweighing other specs. Arcane even seems to be the best in AoE, so unless some serious tuning happens, it will be the go-to specialization.

    As for Fire vs Frost. Hmm, probably Fire will be better at first, but Frost will catch up to it and surpass later into the expansion. Just a hunch though, not based on anything concrete.

  13. #13
    Deleted
    No need for guts. The big picture is clear. The design of Legion in whole forces Blizzard to make all specs for all classes in the entire game viable for all encounters in a very similar fashion. They will not be equal, but their intention appears to be to not make any spec seem too weak and no spec to seem too strong. This is why you see Fire being gimped on its AOE by making Combustion a regular damage CD and Living Bomb less potent, in order to make the spec more viable on single target but also less broken on AOE. This is also why Arcane appears to have the best talent of the last row to drop its burst in exchange for more sustained damage compared to Overpowered which appears to be more potent for short term burst only. Frost appears to be unchanged because it was the perfect "Legion spec" already, it did everything averagely well, and did nothing too badly.

    Right now the technical restriction that forces this idea is mainly the relic slots on the weapons. They appear to be enormous contributions to spell power or weapon damage for the melee and the best ones will be from bosses. If they abandon that idea and make it more relaxed there may be more room for more traditional inequalities between specs.

    But, that paradigm might remain in the game on purpose (or even strengthened), at least for the novelty. A lot of players appear to be fixated to one spec and those people will be happy. If you ask me, it's bad design in whole because it's less interesting, it has an element of being forced.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Tirilka View Post
    Thank god they removed the godawful combustion shit that plagued Fire since Cataclysm. It was absolutely unfun to be at complete mercy of rng, and be completely scammed of dps if you botched it
    so get better and don't botch it then? in both BRF and HFC it was/is literally impossible to not get a semi decent combustion unless you the player mess something up

    Quote Originally Posted by Tirilka View Post
    Detaching spreading from Inferno Blast is amazing too, since these were 2 completely different functions (spreading and forcing hot streak) that made for a completely awkward situations
    yes god forbid a spec has abilities that force you to make choices, with how you manage those choices equalling how good your dps is - fuck any sort of complexity, lets just have every single button in the game being used for one single task only so the correct button to press in every single situation is completely obvious, wont that make for interesting gameplay

    Quote Originally Posted by Tirilka View Post
    Also, was a lost Frostfire Bolt really equal to 90% of your frost enjoyment? If so, I doubt you were a frost enthusiast in the first place.
    if you think all frost is losing in legion is frostfire bolt then...rofl

    also the sad thing is, i'm probably the biggest frost enthusiast in this sub-forum (or was until the first time I logged onto legion alpha and saw what they were doing to the spec)

    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    No need for guts. The big picture is clear. The design of Legion in whole forces Blizzard to make all specs for all classes in the entire game viable for all encounters in a very similar fashion
    because bring the player not the class has not been their overall design goal since cataclysm? glad to see this is the expansion where they will finally achieve it
    Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2016-05-16 at 10:53 PM.

  15. #15
    Deleted
    Thank god they removed the godawful combustion shit that plagued Fire since Cataclysm.

    I'm sure he hasn't [almost] soloed Alysrazor when it was current.

  16. #16
    start as frost, go with fire later in the xpac and end up as arcane.
    The gut has spoken.

  17. #17
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    wasn't their "bring the player not the class" goal since cataclysm?
    It was, that's true. It's subjective on what is best because it depends on what you want in a game. My personal preference is to not overdo it.

    For instance a very common case of a class that restriction to a spec isn't great is priests because a good healer should play both specs.

    I see a lot of people having so many alts and then they don't want to play another spec on their main. I mean come on.

  18. #18
    High Overlord Lionpaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drazail View Post
    start as frost, go with fire later in the xpac and end up as arcane.
    The gut has spoken.
    Thanks gut. Gut... I have a question though. Isn't that a lot of hassle obtaining and upgrading artifact weapons for all my specs?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWJamaica View Post
    Thanks gut. Gut... I have a question though. Isn't that a lot of hassle obtaining and upgrading artifact weapons for all my specs?
    Hassle good, Gut likes hassle.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWJamaica View Post
    I have a question though. Isn't that a lot of hassle obtaining and upgrading artifact weapons for all my specs?
    from Blizzard's perspective, think about all that content you will have to repeat

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