Why is exclusivity bad for WoW (and other MMOs)?

[Mytheros]

I didn't read your whole post, I skimmed it and deduced what you were saying from other people commenting before mine. Just to let you know...

As a former "regular raider" from vanilla to early cata and since then having never stepped foot in a raid I say these thoughts....

Generally speaking options are good, lack of options are bad.

Different difficulties are good -- because its different options. BUT these different options only work if the reward is sufficiently matching the challenge, if that doesn't exist then I can easily be swayed in saying that is wrong and then the different difficulties need to be worked on just the "risk / reward" value alone. However if the hardest difficult rewards significantly better gear than the easiest difficulty my comment at that point is "what's the problem then?".

Assumptions don't equal reality. One of the main assumptions for arguments against multiple raid difficulties is that it dilutes the available player pool for the more challenging difficulties (because the theory is people are choosing the easier way to get geared, despite it being lower level gear). I personally think that is a stupid thought. If you want to sincerely do the hardest content you WILL find a way to do the hardest content and you won't settle at say "LFR"... the people that settle for the easier stuff are most likely there because that's fine for them and they aren't dedicated raiders...these people you don't want apply to your ultra hard core raid group anyway!!

The whole time assumption thing - example "...and don't tell me you don't have time to raid...*I* was able to do [x, y, z] in [a,b,c] amount of time".... of all things this makes me laugh the most....why don't people understand such a simple concept -- how YOU spend your time has NOTHING to do with how I spend my time. Why? Variables like -- my level of interest in the game is probably different than yours. If you are excited to raid on any given night but my attitude is simply "yeah I guess that would be cool"...then sure you probably will and do get more accomplished in 2 hours of raid time than I do because you are more motivated about it. Also you don't know my list of real life responsibilities anymore than I do know yours...not to mention maybe I don't want to spend as much as my free time playing a computer game as you do....I mean there's endless variables which is why one of the biggest things I hate in these debates is when people judge someone's time....that's a bullshit reply to say "Well it only takes 2 hours to x many times a week" or whatever your argument is...

Epeen. Finally I can't help but think topics like this have at least something to do with epeen....raiders of today simply don't like that other players , having an easier time, get to see the same pixels as they do - thus in ego ridden minds that dilutes their 'epeen standing' in the virtual community of the game.

And if the epeen issue is the reason - that's a personal issue....not a game one. Learn to be humble, learn perspective in life.

[BananaHandsB]

I have stated this before ... You can't compare MMO to single player games. It isn't the same comparison.

1) Single players games, I can go at my own pace and not miss out of content. This doesn't apply to MMOs. Time is a factor in MMOs. I may only have time to play and gear a few hours a week. Patches change how some classes play, while it isn't typically severe during a patch. Sorry bro, no one wants to do a highmaul raid anymore unless it is a transmog fun run.

2) Single player games you don't deal with toxic players that actively discourage players that are learning OR demand you change for them. I raided during Firelands, when our healers showed up. I didn't mind when raid got cancelled. One guild member was demanding I stop being Ret with Prot Off spec to Holy main spec because he got tired of raids being cancelled. I informed him I had no problem with the raid being cancelled and the lack of healer bother him, maybe he should consider leveling a Healer alt. Tell me, where is the toxic player in Mario Bros I will deal with? And don't go "Well it is easy to avoid toxic players!" Maybe if you are in a guild with friends and known each other for a while.

3) Guilds will always have preferences on what classes and specs they take. PUGs will always have their own rules. I see a Master Loot rule where they stated all gear was the core group of them and that anyone else had to use their bonus rolls if they wanted gear. The common argument is the "MAKE YOUR OWN GUILD!" or "START YOUR OWN PUG!" Ignoring that not everyone can lead a raid, especially when they aren't familiar with the mechanics or leading a raid group.

Again, i can do normal raids if I wanted to do them ... I just don't care to because of toxic players or entitled pugs I seem to deal with constantly. My argument is against a single difficulty MMO where story is locked by raiding.

You focused entirely on my analogy and completely missed my point, and even missed that I'm entirely on board with the idea of multiple raid difficulties in WoW. Like you implied, WoW raids are more than just a challenge, they provide story, and pure awesomeness in many ways. I raid mythic, but I love that my buddies who don't can still experience the raids I used to just tell them about or they'd watch in videos.

My problem is with this assumption that seems to be growing in popularity that by buying a video game you're entitled to unadulterated, unhindered access to all the content within it. That simply isn't true no matter how much you dislike certain aspects of the game you're playing, single, multi, or massively multiplayer. That's the deal when you signed up, and that will be true for WoW to some degree as well, no matter how you shake it.

[Darththeo]

You focused entirely on my analogy and completely missed my point, and even missed that I'm entirely on board with the idea of multiple raid difficulties in WoW. Like you inferred, WoW raids are more than just a challenge, they provide story, and pure awesomeness in many ways. I raid mythic, but I love that my buddies who don't can still experience the raids I used to just tell them about or they'd watch in videos.

My problem is with this assumption that seems to be growing in popularity that by buying a video game you're entitled to all the content within it. That simply isn't true no matter how much you dislike certain aspects of the game you're playing, single, multi, or massively multiplayer. That's the deal when you signed up, and that will be true for WoW to some degree as well, no matter how you shake it.

And you are misrepresenting my argument. I am not saying I should have all the content with no effort. I am saying a game should be gear to the players who are playing it ... WoW target audience are the players who are playing it. If you make content that only 1 in 100 players can see, what incentive is there to make that content awesome? What incentive is there even to make that content in the first place?

I am not saying I want to have free stuff, I am saying I want to be able to see the content and free like I am progressing in the story. If you wall raids to say Mythic level difficulty only ... what do you think happens to raiding and the game in general? What do you think happens if you wall raids behind the prior tier and month long attunement quests to get into them?

MMO exist to keep people playing. You make content too hard that the average player can't or won't do it, why bother making it at all? If you make content too easy that it can be cleared by the average person in a hour, why bother making it? I am not arguing for free stuff ... I am not asking to be able to go treat mythic archimonde as a loot pinata. I am asking for a difficulty where I can complete it with the amount of reasonable effort I can put in.

What the TC is asking is there is only one raid and if you can't clear it that is your problem ... that is what I am arguing against. If you ignore that context, you misrepresent my argument.

[Deleted]

Then what are you arguing? Because if you're arguing that a move back to a single raid difficulty would exclude you, then you ARE arguing that your $15 entitles you to see everything even if you won't do what it takes to run that single difficulty.

This guy is hilarious. EVERYONE is straw manning him. Makes you ponder how bad he is at getting his actual argument across.

[Darththeo]

This guy is hilarious. EVERYONE is straw manning him. Makes you ponder how bad he is at getting his actual argument across.

Or you people are all making the same assumptions.
I am not saying "I am a bad player give me stuff!"
I am arguing against a person stating "Hey, if you can't do it, you suck!"

I am saying why should you remove accessibllity to make exclusivity to only a minority of a minority? I consider myself an average player of WoW. I am not the greatest player, but I have seen a whole hell of a lot worse than me (a Ret Paladin with Sword and Board for example, in content) and people a whole lot better than I (people in full mythic gear). I am arguing, why the fuck should the difficulty be set to a standard of where only good players, rather than average players can see it?

So yes, you are all strawmanning me because I didn't say or even imply "GIVE ME FREE STUFF!!" That is a strawman, because that is not my argument.

[grandgato]

How exactly are you being denied content? When you played Mario on NES, did you expect to be sent straight to Bowser if you so desired, or did you have to work, improve, and overcome obstacles to get to that "content" (obviously the example can be extrapolated to virtually any game)? Rarely do games guarantee unadulterated access to all the content within them, WoW is no exception and I don't understand your assuming that it is.

On the newer Mario platforming games if you die repeatedly on the same level you are given an optional white Tanooki suit that gives you flight and invincibility, all but guaranteeing you can finish the level.

Video games in general used to cater to a very specific audience, which isn't the case anymore.

[Darththeo]

On the newer Mario platforming games if you die repeatedly on the same level you are given an optional white Tanooki suit that gives you flight and invincibility, all but guaranteeing you can finish the level.

Video games in general used to cater to a very specific audience, which isn't the case anymore.

Wait is that true? Oh, that pisses me off ... I like things like the flute or warp pipes where you had to at least find them, even then it wasn't hard if you knew where to look.

There is a difference between casual and "give me stuff" ... and many people don't seem to understand that.

[Glorious Leader]

Wait is that true? Oh, that pisses me off ... I like things like the flute or warp pipes where you had to at least find them, even then it wasn't hard if you knew where to look.

There is a difference between casual and "give me stuff" ... and many people don't seem to understand that.

Its increasingly common in games now. After dieing a couple times the game will literally recommend you drop difficulty. Game designers or publishers or whoever are keenly aware that people can.and do quit games they find simple too frustrating. Ghostcrawler himself said as much too.

[Darththeo]

Its increasingly common in games now. After dieing a couple times the game will literally recommend you drop difficulty. Game designers or publishers or whoever are keenly aware that people can.and do quit games they find simple too frustrating. Ghostcrawler himself said as much too.

Yeah, but asking you to drop difficulty and giving you an item that essentially makes it so unless you fuck up royally you can't lose are too different things. I remember games when easy was just the simplest setting where you could still die if you made a wrong decision or two, it was just more forgiving of errors.

Easy doesn't need to be faceroll or so easy a caveman could do it ... there should be a challenge even on easy. Casual isn't the same as no difficulty.

[BananaHandsB]

Sorry for the delay. Busy day.

Darth, your post contains a ton of different ideas that'd I'd like to address but you're kinda starting to get all over the place, especially when you start going into the philosophy of what makes people keep playing a game, which is a hotly debated and heavily studied subject. Understand, there's a difference between what content you have a "right" to or "deserve" from simply from purchasing a game and what content developers should give majority access to, you started by arguing the prior but seem now to try and meander your argument to mean the latter. I was responding to the bold overarching statement of (paraphrased quote) "I paid the same amount for a game, I deserve access to everything everyone else does" statement, not necessarily in the direct context of raid difficulties. I thought I was clear about that, but maybe not, or maybe you're not reading my entire posts, but I'll try to clear that up.

I want to first respond to this idea of multiple raid difficulties, because I've now twice stated my opinion and you seem not to understand.

If you wall raids to say Mythic level difficulty only ... what do you think happens to raiding and the game in general?

I've now stated multiple times this is no way my stance. I know it makes it easier to prescribe that as my stance as you've clearly thought a lot about your disagreement with that stance, but please understand that's not my stance, so leave that out of your argument otherwise we're going to go in circles and waste a lot of time and I won't continue responding.

What the TC is asking is there is only one raid and if you can't clear it that is your problem ... that is what I am arguing against. If you ignore that context, you misrepresent my argument.

You've now twice in one post ignored the direct statements I've made that I agree with you, there needs to be multiple difficulties to accommodate different players because WoW raids are more than just a pure challenge. You seem desperate to prescribe this stance to me so as to argue against it. That was never my stance, and I made it very clear it wasn't.

My disagreement was with the bold, vague, all encompassing statement you made that I first quoted you on that has become a plague to logical discussion of things of this nature (not just multiple raid difficulties).

Now to answer some of these more vague questions that could have their own discussions entirely. Let's try to remember, I'm answering these questions in the context that they were asked, not specific to raiding difficulties.

You make content too hard that the average player can't or won't do it, why bother making it at all? If you make content too easy that it can be cleared by the average person in a hour, why bother making it?

WoW is full of minorites. There is no clear majority of player-type. That's what makes WoW unique, and mmo's in general in the game world. They aren't designing just a PvP game, just a PvE game, just a single player, just a multiplayer game, just a game for people with an hour of time, or just a game for people with nearly unlimited time. This is a massive multiplayer role playing game, and there are inevitably going to be tons of different minorities that make up the whole of the playerbase. If you tried to design for a single activity that the entire playerbase engages, you will find there isn't a single one. The game is built around being able to do different things and play different ways, and that inevitably means designing things around different minority player-types. That means not only making difficulties like LFR for the more average skilled player to access the lore, but also creating a mythic difficulty that only skilled players will be able to handle for those minorities who are more concerned with the challenge of raiding than the lore. If you stopped designing activities that only minorities play, you'd be left with a game that had quests and nothing else, and people would find new games to play, quickly, as a single activity tends to get boring, especially one with minimal challenge.

What do you think happens if you wall raids behind the prior tier and month long atonement quests to get into them?

Again, not sure where you got this one. Never even mentioned this nor do I agree with this. Raid attunements are a thing of that past. Thank God. There's challenges and then there's just annoyances, attunements were the latter. Attunements didn't appeal to really any part of the playerbase. I never heard of an "attunement" playbase niche, but if it existed it must have been unimaginably small lol.




TLDR: Yes, there should be multiple raid difficulties so more people can access them, but the reason is not: "I pay the same to play it as you, I shouldn't be denied content because I am not as good as you are?". The reason is because its a smart decision from blizzard's perspective, it makes the game more enjoyable for many people, and they specifically tied one aspect of the game, lore, to another, raiding, not because of some "right to content" you have because you paid for the game. That doesn't exist. You paid for entry, what you do after that, is up to you, that is the nature of a game; if anything players deny their own access to content game designers give them, not the other way around (and there's nothing wrong with that).

[Baconeggcheese]

Exclusivity is a tool like anything else and can be healthy for the game when used correctly.

The set of players who have to do all four modes is tiny, perhaps even empty.

I think you missed his point.

[Eroginous]

Paying road tax doesn't give you a Ferrari to drive around, hard work does.
Paying for WoW doesn't give access to the hardest content, hard work does.

Simple as that.

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To some people WoW is our primary hobby, some people go partying, some people fish, some people go rock climbing.
Do you think people who go fishing every weekend have empty lives as well? Who are you to judge what people enjoy and deem it good or bad?

Except, why are you 'working' in a video game? It seems to me like bad design to require players to 'work' for anything. Now, if you're having a good time and Blizzard wants to help you out by making your good time better (loot) that's alright. But if you think that people should be 'working' for things in a video game... well that's no longer a game. That's a job. And I should be getting paid for doing it.

[Egregious]

There is nothing wrong with exclusivity. Exclusivity drives the ebb and flow of life, mitigating it makes life bland.

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Except, why are you 'working' in a video game? It seems to me like bad design to require players to 'work' for anything. Now, if you're having a good time and Blizzard wants to help you out by making your good time better (loot) that's alright. But if you think that people should be 'working' for things in a video game... well that's no longer a game. That's a job. And I should be getting paid for doing it.

Clearly no one should work for anything. Give everyone everything. Duh.

[corebit]

Except, why are you 'working' in a video game? It seems to me like bad design to require players to 'work' for anything. Now, if you're having a good time and Blizzard wants to help you out by making your good time better (loot) that's alright. But if you think that people should be 'working' for things in a video game... well that's no longer a game. That's a job. And I should be getting paid for doing it.

He means "work" as in "put effort into it."

By your logic, all games should be faceroll easy, then why bother with difficulty modes or anything more challenging beyond pressing random keys and still winning. Might as well just make games like interactive movies, where you simply go through the motions until the end credits roll.

[Eroginous]

There is nothing wrong with exclusivity. Exclusivity drives the ebb and flow of life, mitigating it makes life bland.

The kind of exclusivity we're talking about here is a social behavior, meaning it can't exist without having an (often negative) effect on society. The ebb and flow of life isn't relevant to the existence of artificial exclusivity in a video game.

Clearly no one should work for anything. Give everyone everything. Duh.

Well, the appropriate word is 'effort' instead of 'work.' Yes, you should have to put effort into doing things in a video game. But in a story driven game like Wow, your story should not be walled off behind content only certain people can do because of arbitrary skill requirements. When you are paying $50 for a game box you should have to put forth a reasonable amount of effort to experience the story, but that's why there are different difficulty settings in games to begin with.

I really don't see a problem with things like Raid Finder.

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He means "work" as in "put effort into it."

By your logic, all games should be faceroll easy, then why bother with difficulty modes or anything more challenging beyond pressing random keys and still winning. Might as well just make games like interactive movies, where you simply go through the motions until the end credits roll.

I put that in quotes because they keep making it sound like people are just lazy and don't want to do anything and that's why they have a problem with exclusivity. Using a term like 'work' incorrectly only makes things worse. It's like people who argue against welfare and act like people don't want to work at a nice job that pays a living wage. Really people? You think there is a posh career for 100% of working people?

Different difficulty modes exist to help everyone enjoy something. I honestly can't see a problem with that. And to be real, all that time you spend beating the hardest settings for the best loot is pretty much pointless as soon as new content comes out, especially if your goal is acquiring gear.

[Pieterman]

Except, why are you 'working' in a video game? It seems to me like bad design to require players to 'work' for anything. Now, if you're having a good time and Blizzard wants to help you out by making your good time better (loot) that's alright. But if you think that people should be 'working' for things in a video game... well that's no longer a game. That's a job. And I should be getting paid for doing it.

I'm guessing you've never heard of Monopoly, or Mario, or Pokémon, or literally any game ever. What's ment with work isn't selling TVs over the phone for 12 hours. It's a progress of improving yourself to the point where you're capable of accessing/completing the content. A lot of people loved WoW because of that, and it doesn't really exist anymore.

[Deleted]

Exclusivity for rewards is fine. It serves as motivation for people to do the content. This reward is just some better gear or cosmetic reward. Nothing related to story.

Exclusivity for content is bad. Locking away large and amazing areas which tell the final story of the expansion is just bad. That's why I've never cared for TBC. I've never seen the ending of the story... On the other hand in MoP I was able to see and experience the story progression with my own character. That one of the reasons I love MoP and I like LFR...

[Deleted]

It's really not about feeling better about ourselves for ruining/removing their activity. There's few serious player that're that arrogant. It's just harmful for the game if all the content needs to be accessible to people with little time. Having that just means people that do have time won't have new content, but instead get upscaled versions of the easymodes. 50% more dmg and health isn't new or interesting.

Unfortunately having something that's both new & challenging makes it "exclusive" and would get viciously attacked on forums by entitled people.

I'd rather have 4 raids with 1 difficulty each than 3 raids with 4 difficulties each. It's a way more rewarding experience. I missed out on Vezax and Yogg-saron normal, I didn't bitch about it. I just enjoyed the things I did get to kill, and killed them 2 tiers later.

Well, obviously we have different mindsets about harmfull to the game.
Back then, my guild killed hc lich king as realm 1st.
Did we care that others killed it on normal? Ofc not, why would we.
They didnt take anything from us. We just didnt care what others do. Dont understand why you care.

[Darththeo]

TLDR: Yes, there should be multiple raid difficulties so more people can access them, but the reason is not: "I pay the same to play it as you, I shouldn't be denied content because I am not as good as you are?". The reason is because its a smart decision from blizzard's perspective, it makes the game more enjoyable for many people, and they specifically tied one aspect of the game, lore, to another, raiding, not because of some "right to content" you have because you paid for the game. That doesn't exist. You paid for entry, what you do after that, is up to you, that is the nature of a game; if anything players deny their own access to content game designers give them, not the other way around (and there's nothing wrong with that).

So essentially admitting that you chose to take my first argument as vague (because you have to ignore context of what I was arguing against) to make your original my original point.

All you did is reword what I said and go "well, you are wrong." I am not arguing a right to content, I am arguing against exclusivity which is a denial of content. The argument well "get better." is not a valid argument. And a single player game example isn't that. Raids are going to have only certain members do it for the sake not everyone will raid there is no reason to gear it to only the highest or only a smaller subset of raiders (like TC wants).

Look at PvP in WoW, high end PvP isn't a separate content from non-rated BGs ... it is just a higher intensity. There is zero PvP content that the average player can't go do and have some success in.

Essentially to make your original argument against me, you had to ignore the first post ... period, there is no other way.

[Dormie]

Exclusivity for rewards is fine. It serves as motivation for people to do the content. This reward is just some better gear or cosmetic reward. Nothing related to story.

Exclusivity for content is bad. Locking away large and amazing areas which tell the final story of the expansion is just bad. That's why I've never cared for TBC. I've never seen the ending of the story... On the other hand in MoP I was able to see and experience the story progression with my own character. That one of the reasons I love MoP and I like LFR...

So you play Halo expecting to have the final level available to you from the beginning?