Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #21
    Brewmaster Khadgar's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Dalaran
    Posts
    1,483
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Wait, you think a planet and multiple significant moons and asteroids is too little to share?
    whooa, are you the King of OT? 50,000 posts in this section is quite an achievement.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Chief View Post
    whooa, are you the King of OT? 50,000 posts in this section is quite an achievement.
    I'm to be pitied. A decrepit reminder of the OT That Was.

  3. #23
    Deleted
    Only thing that could unity human race is a common enemy. We are like the Orks of warhammer 40k, bickering and fighting amongst ourself until a greater war comes along and we team up.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Wait, you think a planet and multiple significant moons and asteroids is too little to share?
    They have a lot less surface area than you'd think. The Surface Area of Callisto for example, is a mere 14% of Earth. And it's not like you can just build a town anywhere.

    Think about where towns and cities were built in the US. Along water ways. Near coal mines. Along the coast. Access to resources. Notice where there really isn't any big city: in the middle of the Great plains. The closest is Chicago, which sits on Lake Michigan.

    When colonizing moons, like say THE moon, you're going to want to first colonize the most easily accessible places for water and for protection from the environment. The first base on the Moon for example, won't be on the Lunar equator. it will be at the Lunar south pole.


    Don't think about them as whole worlds to build on. They won't be anymore than Central Siberia hosts major cities. Think about the best locations. Maybe something the size of Callisto could support two or three.

  5. #25
    Yeah I'm aware of their surface area. 14% of earth on a single moon is still a ton of space even if its not all usable. You're trying to take everything that is part of a large metropolitan society and applying to a wildly different situation.

    By the time technology advances enough for population size to be a relevant concern on a moon like Callisto the world will be so wildly different that this conversation is moot. You're talking probably at least 200 years from now. Who knows what China will be like then, or how the West will be.

    As for the West near term, large numbers of people is probably going to be private venture, so its not like there's a lot of "ra ra Western justice values" to be had.

  6. #26
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaze41 View Post
    I hold no high regard for any single government, they all have faults and merits. The ability to colonize other planets, not just Mars, would defeat conflicting governments would it not? There's enough space for all of us. We are human, all of us, space doesn't belong to "the West", nor should it. This kind of thinking terrifies me because I know it's the most likely outcome. Perhaps we don't deserve to leave Earth until we've overcome our human faults, or gone extinct.
    Skroe is a good proof that we REALLY aint going nowhere anytime soon.

  7. #27
    The Patient --Code--'s Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Goldshire
    Posts
    320
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    There actually isn't enough space for all of us.

    Of the "prime real estate" in the solar system, your options are parts of the Moon, Mars, parts of Callisto and Gaynemede, maybe Titan and that's it.

    There's hundreds of moons but most offer no economic incentive to go or others (like Europa) are too radioactive for humans to live.

    So no. No sharing. The West needs to buy up all the best property.

    And they wouldn't defeat conflicting governments at all, because no government will want to share either. They'll want to protect and expand their interests and those of their citizens. They will not and have no reason to be selfless.

    And besides the fact of the matter is the "whole of humanity" brings basically nothing to the table. The US and ESA have by far the most advanced space programs on the planet. Russia is good at putting people and sattelites into LEO and little more. China's rockets are woefully inadequate for anything substantial beyond LEO work.
    Valid points, but I'm thinking further down the line. No doubt we will still have issues when we are only colonizing the few planets within our solar system, that is far too soon, but what about when we leave it? It will obviously take time, but leaving the solar system could be the event that finally changes humans. If not, what could?

  8. #28
    I mean honestly, just a cursory glance at history tells us that trying to extrapolate what degree of liberalism various cultures will have centuries into the future is kind of ridiculous.

    There's no reason to think that a China capable of mass interplanetary colonization wouldn't undergo the liberalization every other major economic and scientific power does. Some could argue such a liberalization is even necessary to get to that point.

    Its all navel gazing really. Futurism is just masturbation.

  9. #29
    No. Just look at the USa for an example of how seggregation happens anyway.

  10. #30
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaze41 View Post
    Valid points, but I'm thinking further down the line. No doubt we will still have issues when we are only colonizing the few planets within our solar system, that is far too soon, but what about when we leave it? It will obviously take time, but leaving the solar system could be the event that finally changes humans. If not, what could?
    This is so further down the line that, by the way things are looking, we really should be worried about getting there at all.

  11. #31
    The Patient --Code--'s Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Goldshire
    Posts
    320
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Futurism is just masturbation.
    So true.

    BUT, it's not a bad thing to dream and use your imagination. People today have forgotten how...

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaze41 View Post
    Valid points, but I'm thinking further down the line. No doubt we will still have issues when we are only colonizing the few planets within our solar system, that is far too soon, but what about when we leave it? It will obviously take time, but leaving the solar system could be the event that finally changes humans. If not, what could?
    Not a thing. Not a damn thing.

    Our differences are profound. You know, I actually deeply resent this entire thesis. You know why? Because so far as we know, Human beings are the only intelligent life in the universe. That makes issues involving the human race not minor squabbles of a divided family, but concerns of cosmic importance. And our most important differences come under the topic of "how shall man live?". Our to put it another way, "how shall the only known intelligent life in the universe live"?

    We can't paper over that. That's more important than holding hands and colonizing Mars. There must be and will be a definitive answer.

    Unity for unity's sake is worthless. Unity on the other end of a process of getting to final resolution on the "cosmic questions" of the human race, is the only legitimate path forward. And I think that's way on the other end of planetary colonization, not a pre-requisite.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaze41 View Post
    I agree, I'm just hopeful that can happen before we go extinct. There are people today that live without religion or race issues and they're stuck watching the world burn.
    Guess getting rid of their religions and their racial biases made them weak.

  14. #34
    Deleted
    Not if we were to colonize different planets.

    Soon they would form different cultures of their own and eventually turn on each other

  15. #35
    Yeah the only thing I could see making a serious dent in human nature is true post scarcity, but I doubt we'll ever see that.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    I mean honestly, just a cursory glance at history tells us that trying to extrapolate what degree of liberalism various cultures will have centuries into the future is kind of ridiculous.

    There's no reason to think that a China capable of mass interplanetary colonization wouldn't undergo the liberalization every other major economic and scientific power does. Some could argue such a liberalization is even necessary to get to that point.

    Its all navel gazing really. Futurism is just masturbation.
    Eh... I wouldn't dismiss outright, particularly in the wests case. The US's core political principles remain a product of the Enlightenment, 230 years later, much like most of Modern Europe. And that is on the other end of every single war and map redrawing both have gone through.

    We have no clue what liberalism will look like in the 23rd century, or even if there will be liberalism or the West will be liberal. For all we know there could be a strong religious resurgence in the 22nd century. But at the same time, Europe and the US have been through exactly periods like that and maintained the essential elements of it's philosophical origins.

    I think that will be true of Mars or wherever else. Government, society may look very foreign on a "State of Mars" in 2354, but it will certainly have key elements in its societal DNA of the first settlement of 100. New England... the Mayflower... shining example of how even 350 years later, that endures.

  17. #37
    I mean yeah, product of the Enlightenment, but it wasn't until the last 30-40 years we ever really started taking it seriously. Most of those 230 years were Enlightenment for the right white men, and oppression enforced by state sponsored terrorism for the rest. So let's not pat ourselves on the back too much, we're barely even out of living memory for where China is now in a lot of ways.

    But as we can barely even predict what technology will look like at a day to day level generations out with any reliability, using vague guesses of far future cultural superiority to guide modern policy is really just an effort at justifying what one actually wants now. If you want hegemony over space, better to be upfront about it.
    Last edited by Wells; 2016-05-17 at 07:22 AM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Yeah I'm aware of their surface area. 14% of earth on a single moon is still a ton of space even if its not all usable. You're trying to take everything that is part of a large metropolitan society and applying to a wildly different situation.

    By the time technology advances enough for population size to be a relevant concern on a moon like Callisto the world will be so wildly different that this conversation is moot. You're talking probably at least 200 years from now. Who knows what China will be like then, or how the West will be.

    As for the West near term, large numbers of people is probably going to be private venture, so its not like there's a lot of "ra ra Western justice values" to be had.
    I think we'll see the historical parallels here too. Colonization of the Americas was largely a prviate or public-private (in modern terminology) venture. The creation of state holdings came later. I think we'll see that too. If NASA and SpaceX build a Mars base under contract together and it grows, eventually, Congress will legislate that it become a territory and go through the whole process. I mean the continental US was largely unsettled, so our constitution and laws have mechanisms for just this kind thing already. In a sense, the US lived this.

    Also infrastructure is a lot easier to build in the 21st century than the 15th, no matter where you are. As soon as you have some construction vehicles, a shop, and some fabrication facilities on Mars, infrastructure building will take off very, very quickly.

  19. #39
    I'm headed to bed, but my personal guess for the near future, for the little its worth, is that we'll see accelerated private sector growth with NASA spending most of its time on abstract research and operational coordination. Basically part Sagan-DARPA and part Astral FAA. I'm more or less fine with this. Far left winger I may be, but if private companies can reliably handle resource extraction and logistics with due regulation I'd prefer government focus on gains where profit motives aren't obvious.

    China though, I doubt they'll be able to sustain a space program without serious social reforms. They're one bad economic crisis away from long term collapse.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    I think we'll see the historical parallels here too. Colonization of the Americas was largely a prviate or public-private (in modern terminology) venture. The creation of state holdings came later. I think we'll see that too. If NASA and SpaceX build a Mars base under contract together and it grows, eventually, Congress will legislate that it become a territory and go through the whole process. I mean the continental US was largely unsettled, so our constitution and laws have mechanisms for just this kind thing already. In a sense, the US lived this.

    Also infrastructure is a lot easier to build in the 21st century than the 15th, no matter where you are. As soon as you have some construction vehicles, a shop, and some fabrication facilities on Mars, infrastructure building will take off very, very quickly.
    I don't find the logistics to be particularly relevant to the point though. If the claim is that we need hegemony to ensure the long term propagation of liberal values we simply have no real way to tell who will carry that torch as far into the future as we're talking about.

  20. #40
    Nope, and let me tell you when Mars sends it people, they're not sending their best.
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    The only lies here are the bullshit coming from you. RBG appears to be immortal.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •