Spoilers: Who is right? Captain America or Iron Man?

[Deleted]

he doesnt obey their orders all the time, hell he even goes off the grid several times in the movie.

Iron Man? He goes off the grid once, when he learns he was wrong on the Bucky case. And because he has signed the accords, acting on his own, he has to lie to Ross, because he knows what he is doing is against the accords (doing something without orders). Which is my point. Once signed they can't do anything without UN approval, or they are seen as doing something illegal. They become Enhanced militia nothing more.

[George Costanza]

He goes to the winter soldier base without Ross knowing it. he later IGNORES the orders from ross (at the end) about the Raft thing. Which shows that he is able to go against it as well.

[Deleted]

He goes to the winter soldier base without Ross knowing it. he later IGNORES the orders from ross (at the end) about the Raft thing. Which shows that he is able to go against it as well.

Thank you for repeating exactly what I said... Don't even know why you did that...
So because he hung up the phone at the end you think that's it? Tony Stark has gone against UN and they will say nothing? You know that scene was there for comic relief yeah? Do I need to explain that also?

Ross phones to get answers, Tony hangs up because he said he would do. *Cinema laughs*.
Now because of that scene you think Ross is going to say "Oh well he hung up, let's have a cup of tea and call it a day" Come on dude don't be that guy.
You know they are going to call back, force a visit, summon him, demand answers etc.

The only moment Tony went agaisnt the UN, and I mean in a real way, not in a joke hang up way. Was for Siberia. And he had to LIE cause he new that the UN wouldn't allow it, and he would be branded a criminal for going against orders. That is proof enough that a goverment controlling heroes is a bad thing.

[George Costanza]

no need to straw man or put words in my mouth.

I don't really find you to be worthy of my own attention at this moment, since you seem to either be trolling or getting too, personal about it /flamey.

[Deleted]

no need to straw man or put words in my mouth.

I don't really find you to be worthy of my own attention at this moment, since you seem to either be trolling or getting too, personal about it /flamey.

So I prove my point. You do not. So "I am not worthy of your attention".
That's utter defeat my friend

ps: Let's not forget the good old "you're a troll" when you have no arguments.

[icausewipes]

Are you kidding me? You think forcing the superheroes to give their real identity is a good thing?
Like that they can be pressured by any goverment to do what they want (threaten families) or even worse, a bad guy/organisation get their hands on the ID's? Bye bye families and friends.

The main reason Heroes keep their ID's hidden is not to escape responsability, it's to protect themselves and their family/friends.

And in the movie Cap is also right. You can't let a goverment (or in this case the UN) take control on what Heroes should and shouldn't do. The previous movie was about Hydra infiltrating Shield and nearly taking over the US. What if Hydra takes the UN? What happens next? What about personal agenda's of the people controling the heroes. Deciding who should be saved, or not saved... Countries using their Heroes as leverage etc. Heroes must remain independant from human agenda.

And in the videos they show

NY: Yeah they destroyed and killed people on the side, but they saved the world from Alien invasion. Oh and the goverment was ready to nuke their own country. So they have no say in this at all.
Washington: Oh Cap destroyed Helicarriers and killed a few people? Well at least he saved the US from Hydra that was going to take over the country by killing off thousands of people to start with (and even mor elater)
Sokovia: They saved the world from extinction, even if we can argue that it's Tony's fault that Ultron was created.

All those videos they use as "proof" are biased. They are quick to blame the innocents deaths on the Avengers, but they forget (on purpose) that without them and their "free will" it would have been much worse.

Re-read my post. I remain neutral til I see the movie. I side with IM in the comic version because chasing bad guys for TV ratings and getting ppl killed should not be tolerated.

[Deleted]

What he didn't want was the government taking super-powered people and pointing them at people/places/things that the government decided were enemies.

First I have not seen the moive, but the other side of the coin is that the super-powered people at ther own discretion ponting themself at people/places/things and at their own discretion declear them a enemy.

Its very bad then one person are the judge jury and executioner. Atlest the goverment are elected by the poepel repesent the will of the popoel and have to follow the rule of law and are held accountable for their actions (in the ideal case)

[Halicia]

This movie wasn't about accountability. It was about Captain America condemning innocent people to death to save his terrorist/murderer-friend from going to jail.

exactly the opposite. Captain America was saving a man innocent of *THIS* crime from being killed without a trial. Bucky was kill on sight... that's *not* a go-to-jail scenario.

I think this whole premise was played out best in Hancock, and showed the inevitable results.

Civil War's "hold them accountable" was flawed by the fact that those being held accountable (Avengers, etc) were *NOT* the ones responsible for the destruction. They were the ones responsible for mitigating the death and destruction already caused by others, "villains".

They also complained about "border violations" when 2 of the 3 incidents in question were within US borders, and well... I don't see how Shield/Avengers border rights would NOT be addressed by US Airspace treaties. If you want to harbor terrorists, then that's hardly a defensible position...

but not only does the UN take the position that the Avenger's should have let a biological WMD fall into the hands of terrorists, but they then go on to blame the Avenger's for the destruction caused by the explosion of a suicide bomber OF THOSE TERRORISTS. You can't have it both ways.

This created a fundamental problem for me to appreciate the movie fully. *IF* the deaths/destruction had been caused directly by Scarlet Witch, Hulk, and/or others in an obvious mistake or overkill situation of excessive force, then the moral quandary would have been much better presented... but instead, we are presented with a situation where the Avenger's SAVED THE LIVES OF cities/nations/thewhole!@#ingworld and then people are crying about a broken window.

"Oh my son died when the city fell on him." WELL BLAME THE @!#$ING VILLAINS WHO BROUGHT THE CITY INTO THE SKY! not the guys that were busting their !@# saving everyone trapped in that city.

[RampageBW1]

"Oh my son died when the city fell on him." WELL BLAME THE @!#$ING VILLAINS WHO BROUGHT THE CITY INTO THE SKY! not the guys that were busting their !@# saving everyone trapped in that city.

Technically speaking, Tony Stark created the villain whom brought the city in to the sky, so...

"We need to be placed in check, and by we, I mean me mostly, so I don't get to create an out of control rogue artificial lifeform hell bent on forcing humanity to either evolve or perish again."

[Faltemer]

Technically speaking, Tony Stark created the villain whom brought the city in to the sky, so...

This was the biggest flaw to me. No one brought up the fact that the AVENGERS were not the cause of the problems in AoU, Tony and to a lesser extent Bruce were. Tony being upset and feeling responisble makes sense. Since he caused it. Cap isn't responsible. Neither is anyone else. Arguably Wanda is for any deaths caused prior to her leaving Ultron, but overall 99% of the blame in Ultron lies with Stark/Bruce. The whole movie was based around governments and Stark saying Avnegrs needed to be placed in check, when that wasn't the case. Tony acting all high and mighty this movie ends up falling flat, because it makes no sense. And when you consider at some point Tony's side is willing to chase and help a group claiming kill on sight for a man who didn't commit the crime Tony'as side really doesnt have a leg to stand on.

[PACOX]

I was able to suspend belief to enjoy the movie but problems I had with the premise (sure people have already discussed it)

Wanda's incident was an accident and not exactly catastrophic. They clearly stopped one threat and she was had just stopped a bomb from going off in a crowded market. I can understand people getting mad but the level they took the situation was ridiculous. She would have certainly had just as many people supporting her.

Tony pretty much caused entire Ultron incident due to his pride and arrogance but wants all supers and heroes to held accountable for his actions. So much that he isn't even open to hearing the other side.

Citing the first incident (Avengers 1) was completely asinine because the alternative was to nuke the city...

They just learned that SHIELD was corrupt, do you really think they are going to just submit to another governing body? Why wasn't SHIELD dismantled?

From a podcast: All Captain America they had to do was refuse to go after Bucky to prove how throwing that much red tape in front of them would be a bad thing.

Tony going apeshit on Bucky after he learned everything about Bucky...Get mad, maybe bunch him, but any sane person would differentiate the Winter Soldier from Bucky. Are people made at Vision because of his ties to Ultron? Tony?

[Halicia]

Technically speaking, Tony Stark created the villain whom brought the city in to the sky, so...

Who knows that though ? Its been ages since I've seen that movie, so !@#$ if I can remember what's public, and what could be kept secret by Shield.

It didn't strike me that they were placing any blame on Tony for the city being taken up though... just the fact that they didn't somehow keep the sky from falling.

[frogger237]

This was the biggest flaw to me. No one brought up the fact that the AVENGERS were not the cause of the problems in AoU, Tony and to a lesser extent Bruce were. Tony being upset and feeling responisble makes sense. Since he caused it. Cap isn't responsible. Neither is anyone else. Arguably Wanda is for any deaths caused prior to her leaving Ultron, but overall 99% of the blame in Ultron lies with Stark/Bruce. The whole movie was based around governments and Stark saying Avnegrs needed to be placed in check, when that wasn't the case. Tony acting all high and mighty this movie ends up falling flat, because it makes no sense. And when you consider at some point Tony's side is willing to chase and help a group claiming kill on sight for a man who didn't commit the crime Tony'as side really doesnt have a leg to stand on.

It's been awhile since I saw the film but weren't the Avengers and I think the scientist chick really the only ones who knew about who made Ultron anyways? So unless Tony went out and issued a My Bad why would they be blamed in the first place.

[Treeskee]

I was able to suspend belief to enjoy the movie but problems I had with the premise (sure people have already discussed it)

Wanda's incident was an accident and not exactly catastrophic. They clearly stopped one threat and she was had just stopped a bomb from going off in a crowded market. I can understand people getting mad but the level they took the situation was ridiculous. She would have certainly had just as many people supporting her.

Tony pretty much caused entire Ultron incident due to his pride and arrogance but wants all supers and heroes to held accountable for his actions. So much that he isn't even open to hearing the other side.

Citing the first incident (Avengers 1) was completely asinine because the alternative was to nuke the city...

They just learned that SHIELD was corrupt, do you really think they are going to just submit to another governing body? Why wasn't SHIELD dismantled?

From a podcast: All Captain America they had to do was refuse to go after Bucky to prove how throwing that much red tape in front of them would be a bad thing.

Tony going apeshit on Bucky after he learned everything about Bucky...Get mad, maybe bunch him, but any sane person would differentiate the Winter Soldier from Bucky. Are people made at Vision because of his ties to Ultron? Tony?

I Agree with everything except for the last part. It's easy to say just punch him or get mad, but I honestly think most people would want to get revenge on the person who killed their parents regardless.

[catablitz]

In the comic series definately team cap was the righteous one but the film adopted the plot so differently that even captain's actions were controversial to his character in his previous films.

[ItachiZaku]

exactly the opposite. Captain America was saving a man innocent of *THIS* crime from being killed without a trial. Bucky was kill on sight... that's *not* a go-to-jail scenario.

That's a little bit bullshit. That's saying there are/were no nazi war criminals, because they were all scared of Hitler, so it was alright. Bucky should fry for his crimes. #TeamIronman

[Shadowferal]

That's a little bit bullshit. That's saying there are/were no nazi war criminals, because they were all scared of Hitler, so it was alright. Bucky should fry for his crimes. #TeamIronman

Black Panther saw Bucky as a victim...even though he killed his beloved father, he was able to see clearly after hearing everything and judging as a wise king would do. Unlike IM, who allowed himself to be manipulated.
#TeamBlackPanther

[Deleted]

Not quite sure how one of the smartest people in the universe gets angry like a teenager, when it's beyond obvious that Bucky has been brainwashed and loses all control.

But apart from that it was a decent popcorn movie. Not too sure why they called it a Captain America movie, then again, not too sure why the last one was The Winter Soldier while this one had more Winter Soldier..

Looking forward for Spiderman though.

[Faroth]

Not quite sure how one of the smartest people in the universe gets angry like a teenager, when it's beyond obvious that Bucky has been brainwashed and loses all control.

But apart from that it was a decent popcorn movie. Not too sure why they called it a Captain America movie, then again, not too sure why the last one was The Winter Soldier while this one had more Winter Soldier..

Looking forward for Spiderman though.

People who have a strained relationship with their parents, are somewhat defined by them, and have never really resolved their grief could be prone to something like that when it's thrown in their face. The scene with the alternate "last time he saw his parents" is meant to establish he never dealt with his parents' death. And his mom was the one that supported him where his relationship with his dad was more strained. So when the guy who murdered them rather cold bloodedly is right there, plus his friend knew about it and kept it from him, he just sorta snapped.

[Deleted]

Iron Man.

There's no way we'd let vigilantes with super powers do whatever they want and not hold them accountable.