Upcoming talent change gutting

[Bobby1291]

Not enough that you need to use it. But enough that if you do swap to that talent, you'll do like 1% better.

I can't believe people are putting up this much of a fuss over that small a loss. It wasn't fun, it wasn't engaging. It was just "Hold on guys, I wanna change my talents" every other trash pull.
Take five extra seconds before the pull... or take five extra seconds to kill the mobs. Who cares? Nothing changed. Only your numbers on Recou- ooh and I just figured out why people are upset.
As always, it comes down to epeen.

Clearly not a raider

[deadman1]

I can't believe people are putting up this much of a fuss over that small a loss. It wasn't fun, it wasn't engaging. It was just "Hold on guys, I wanna change my talents" every other trash pull.

Funnily enough the only person that said they change their talents every trash pull was furitrix ... lol.




You keep going back to movement speed and defensives and ignoring the tiers that have both single target and AoE dps talents which DO in fact have bearing on a fight to fight basis.

Take five extra seconds before the pull... or take five extra seconds to kill the mobs. Who cares? Nothing changed. Only your numbers on Recou- ooh and I just figured out why people are upset.
As always, it comes down to epeen.

But what about on a boss? It's not about epeen it's about enrage timers, or healing throughput.

Certain fights require certain talents. For instance a fire mage running single target talents on an AoE fight is going to be x% behind where they should be.

It's fine if you don't raid, but you need to be aware of the implications if you are going to join in the conversation.

[Raiju]

A lot of classes in Legion lost themed talent tiers...which is why warlocks have to choose now between a defensive or demonic port.

most dps specs make some choice between mobility / defensives / healing. This is not only addressed by watcher but all falls under 'utility'

[Kalador]

They want talents to have a high opportunity cost and be meaningful. But what Blizz fails to realize is that they have designed many talents that are:

1. Passive
2. Highly situational
3. Pits AoE talents versus single target

If they want players to stick with talents, then they need to make all talents powerful and not highly situational and niche.

no if talent are not situational or niche there is no reason to have talent, talent are supose to be trade off, more AoE for less ST etc... when there is trade off you have to think of what you need for a fight, where can you sacrifice or where do you need to be best...

Also they don't want player to stick with talent.. they want player to make decision that have some sorte of impact, talent right now are way to easy to switch there is no trade off anymore. I think the best exemple for talent is CM, every decision you make on you're talent is impactful and it's a nice feeling. (rogue is probably the worst exemple of that tho as they have almost cookie-cutter talent build and that's a other probleme).

finally even in the new systeme talent change are going to be super easy to make, if the tome doesn't cost a shit load of gold people will have stacks and stacks of them in there bags.

[Jessicka]

^^clearly not a raider

Class design has become such a mess over the years because everything about it is done to accommodate raiders and raiding.

[rda]

The talents and talent trees have all undergone pretty major changes since MoP introduced the idea of "changing on the fly". Most talent tiers now have a set theme.

There's the "survival tier" at, say, level 15. Then the "mobility tier" at 30. And then the "AoE tier" at level 45. There's no longer any need to swap between them from fight to fight. The only reason we still DO is because, by the very natural of the universe, some talents are gonna perform slightly better than others on certain fights.

Not enough that you need to use it. But enough that if you do swap to that talent, you'll do like 1% better.



I can't believe people are putting up this much of a fuss over that small a loss. It wasn't fun, it wasn't engaging. It was just "Hold on guys, I wanna change my talents" every other trash pull.
Take five extra seconds before the pull... or take five extra seconds to kill the mobs. Who cares? Nothing changed. Only your numbers on Recou- ooh and I just figured out why people are upset.
As always, it comes down to epeen.

Let's disable changing gear. You wear something, you can't unwear it, you can only destroy it by wearing something new. Same reasoning as with talents - "adds identity", bla bla bla, all other nonsense.

I know what you will say - you will say that this is ludicrous, it's not the same, etc. But it is absolutely, completely clear that should Blizzard do so, we'd have a thread similar to this one and some fanboys would be proclaiming that it's for the good. In exactly the same way this current change is somehow proclaimed to be good - but if someone were to suggest it a week ago when Blizzard weren't thinking of doing it, he'd be laughed out the room.

[WowIsDead64]

The only bad thing about this change - I already have Quad-spec and this change will render my effort useless:

[UnluckyAmateur]

This seems like a way to make professions relevant again. How is this a bad thing?

[aethermachine]

"Things change" as a basis for changing things is noise.

- - - Updated - - -



Yes, I did. Anything you wanted to say?

Well you didn't rearly challenge any of the guys points, you took his last line, "things change" and just basically said this is noise.

[Mixxy]

A lot of classes in Legion lost themed talent tiers...which is why warlocks have to choose now between a defensive or demonic port.

You keep going back to movement speed and defensives and ignoring the tiers that have both single target and AoE dps talents which DO in fact have bearing on a fight to fight basis.

Okay so I don't have a sub and haven't bothered looking it up.

If this IS the case and you have tiers with a clear "AoE or single-target" choice... then maybe that needs to be looked at for a system like this.

But even with un-themed tiers, there's still choice and forethought to be made. If you think you're gonna take lots of damage... if you don't know the dungeon or your class, or you just know you're not an amazing player... maybe pick the defensive talent over the one that'll give you more damage in trash pulls.

[rda]

Well you didn't rearly challenge any of the guys points, you took his last line, "things change" and just basically said this is noise.

That's just you reading one post without the previous ones.

[l33t]

As always, it comes down to epeen.

Of course. You are forgetting that min/maxing is just as valid playstyle as casual pvping, logging in to talk to your friends, premaiding lfr, gathering herbs, pet battling or anything, really. Still, for some reason, min/maxing IS the playstyle that keeps getting attacked every major patch. I never tried to strip you guys from the things you like doing in game; I wonder why do you so fixated over stripping from me things I love doing? We have no reforging, we have no interesting stats, now we can't play with all talents as well. Would you be happy when there is one button left in the game, with /random 1-9999999 damage/healing/threat effect on it?

Lets push it further. Lets stop letting people change gear sets - oh well, Blizzard actually did that, old tier sets are no longer working. See what I am talking about?

[Kalador]

As long as raid zones are "safe spaces" then we're good to go.

I like to experiment in between pulls (read: we don't kill the boss so all the "kill boss get safe space" solutions don't work). I guess Blizzard is telling me that the best way to play is to read a guide and just pick the talents that it recommends rather than trying to figure out the best talents for me.

raid are not going to be safe spaces....

you will still be able to experiment as people will drop tome for you to switch talent.

[Jagorath]

The talents and talent trees have all undergone pretty major changes since MoP introduced the idea of "changing on the fly". Most talent tiers now have a set theme.

There's the "survival tier" at, say, level 15. Then the "mobility tier" at 30. And then the "AoE tier" at level 45. There's no longer any need to swap between them from fight to fight. The only reason we still DO is because, by the very natural of the universe, some talents are gonna perform slightly better than others on certain fights.

That's not true, not for all spec, at least.
Unholy has bunch of rows that have both aoe and st.
Or st and burst st or burst aoe.
Yes, there is a utility row and mobility rows, but everything else is not themed.
For example, said Unholy has epidemic talent, without it, you're have very weak-ass aoe so you really need to take this talent, it's not 1 percent better, much more than it.
Or Valk instead of Gargoyle will have insane burst in appropriate fights.
So please, don't say nonsense.

[deadman1]

Okay so I don't have a sub and haven't bothered looking it up.

If this IS the case and you have tiers with a clear "AoE or single-target" choice... then maybe that needs to be looked at for a system like this.

But even with un-themed tiers, there's still choice and forethought to be made. If you think you're gonna take lots of damage... if you don't know the dungeon or your class, or you just know you're not an amazing player... maybe pick the defensive talent over the one that'll give you more damage in trash pulls.

Which is exactly what I said earlier in this thread.

I said "If they are going to make a change like this they need to either look at talent tiers or boss encounters."

For a fire mage these are the aoe and single target talents respectively.

[Wow]

You don't need to go to a city. You need to go anywhere you get Rested experience.

Inns give rested experience. And there's one in almost every quest hub you'll find.

Two problems there inns aren't in almost every quest hub, take warlords for example, the first hub you go to normally yes has one but the ones outside of that normally don't. The other issue is even if they did you would have to know every quest for this to even matter. As you have to pick talents before you get to wherever you need to go and see what you need. Unless the whole point in this is just for us to waste more time run back to the inn over and over.

[Raiju]

Two problems there inns aren't in almost every quest hub, take warlords for example, the first hub you go to normally yes has one but the ones outside of that normally don't. The other issue is even if they did you would have to know every quest for this to even matter. As you have to pick talents before you get to wherever you need to go and see what you need. Unless the whole point in this is just for us to waste more time run back to the inn over and over.

Yeah because you're going to change talents repeatedly every 5 minutes while questing...?

[Socialhealer]

It's Blizzard doing these stupid things, not players. You seem to have logic issues.

right because the playerbase thinks everything should be free and easy, and then oh shit no content look at wod, everything streamlined to be as simple as possible, super fast catch up, blizzard has to put something in the way to slow you down, and the playerbase whines kicking and screaming all the way, so they will always get stupid shit they don't want because they can't tell when they have a good thing.

[deadman1]

Yeah because you're going to change talents repeatedly every 5 minutes while questing...?

Probably not, but devils advocate, what if I wanted to?

Why shouldn't I be able to? How does me switching talents while questing hurt anyone else, or the game?

[SDMF]

The talents and talent trees have all undergone pretty major changes since MoP introduced the idea of "changing on the fly". Most talent tiers now have a set theme.

There's the "survival tier" at, say, level 15. Then the "mobility tier" at 30. And then the "AoE tier" at level 45. There's no longer any need to swap between them from fight to fight. The only reason we still DO is because, by the very natural of the universe, some talents are gonna perform slightly better than others on certain fights.

Not enough that you need to use it. But enough that if you do swap to that talent, you'll do like 1% better.



I can't believe people are putting up this much of a fuss over that small a loss. It wasn't fun, it wasn't engaging. It was just "Hold on guys, I wanna change my talents" every other trash pull.
Take five extra seconds before the pull... or take five extra seconds to kill the mobs. Who cares? Nothing changed. Only your numbers on Recou- ooh and I just figured out why people are upset.
As always, it comes down to epeen.

Do they? Do they really?
I play as Fury and this is what my talent tree looks like:

Avatar vs. Wrecking Ball
Massacre vs. Bladestorm
Frenzy vs. Meat Grinder
Carnage vs. Dragon Roar

Every fucking talent is a choice between single target damage or aoe. I will need to respec after every fight unless I want to seriously gimp myself.
You're telling me all of this equals to difference of 1%? Get out of here.
There are no set themes, forget about it. Hell the same shit goes for Arms aswell.