[Guardian] Legion Discussion

[ryudaraku]

As much fun as it is initially, the constant moonfire spam gets a bit annoying after a while =p

FILTHY LIES!

Though seriously I bet it will for most people. For me though It will make me giggle madly because I love stupid things sometimes.

[Nevcairiel]

Who says it is bugged? Has anyone got a source or a statement that GG is bugged right now? For me it looks like a strong rage generation talent now.

Anyone that can get past the how awesome they find disco bear will recognize that its extremely disruptive and way too much. The proc is literally up all the time and every button you press causes a moonfire, which means every second button you press is again moonfire, making the entire rotation about moonfire and giving you so much rage that you can do everything else for free.

There is no way this is staying, sorry.

[Ooshraxa]

Who says it is bugged? Has anyone got a source or a statement that GG is bugged right now? For me it looks like a strong rage generation talent now. A bit too strong damagewise in AoE Situations where the dot can tick multiple times, but well - tunings aren't finished yet. If the guardian needs a talent for extra rage generation in that form is doubtful, but with that procc rate it isnt just a no brainer or for lazy people who dont wanna maintain moonfire anymore.

A 5% chance that jumps 10-fold in one patch? I still say that someone meant to adjust it slightly, but accidentally altered a constant somewhere in the code.

[Deleted]

So, just speculations. As long as I don't see any official statement I don't believe in a bug. I don't say the buff isn't absurd, I also think it is way to high with a 50% proccrate. I just guess it could be intended as a heavy rage generation talent but needs to be tuned down a little.

Im speculating a bit too with that assumption. My idea was just that they made a complete garbage talent into some kind of a niche one.

[Kaeth]

This is clearly one of those cases in which Blizzard overbuffed a talent in testing to get more players to try it out. The 50% proc rate is insane. But I really hope it isn't reduced below 10% when they revert the change later.

[Kioga]

What effect will the most recent spec/talent change mean for bear tanks:

1) Will Pulverize remain the default boss talent and we just wont use it on a majority of trash packs.
Is Brambles tuned enough on its own to be competitive with Pulverize in single target?

2) Will it force bears, and other tanks to carry a stack of the reagents themeselves?

3) Do you think this change is counter intuitive and will also be changed at some point?

[Rivin]

1) Will Pulverize remain the default boss talent and we just wont use it on a majority of trash packs.

Why wouldn't you use Pulverize on trash? The new design should make it very easy to keep up on trash, unless it dies within 10 seconds or so (in which case you could just pop a cooldown to cover it if you need to).

[CenariusTheForestLord]

What effect will the most recent spec/talent change mean for bear tanks:

1) Will Pulverize remain the default boss talent and we just wont use it on a majority of trash packs.
Is Brambles tuned enough on its own to be competitive with Pulverize in single target?

2) Will it force bears, and other tanks to carry a stack of the reagents themeselves?

3) Do you think this change is counter intuitive and will also be changed at some point?

1) Pulverize is easier to keep up on AOE than ST now because of thrash stacking instead of lacerate. It will always be the best mitigation talent of the three, unless they nerf rage gen significantly so you need that talent, or they buff the AP ratio on brambles significantly. Brambles looks like a lazy dps option.

2) If it's too expensive then it'll probably be provided by your guild. (At least in my guild). If it isn't I suspect everyone will want a stack of it at all times.

3) I heard some discussion and liked the idea of the tome giving a buff persisting through death. For the next 1/2/3 hour(s) you can talent change anywhere.
Current iteration seems weird for progression as you'd want to change a lot of talents based on experience on the bosses.
Counter intuitive may be a bit far, but I can see where you're coming from. The idea is to have choice in talents, then why restrict us making that choice?

[zurm]

What effect will the most recent spec/talent change mean for bear tanks:

1) Will Pulverize remain the default boss talent and we just wont use it on a majority of trash packs.
Is Brambles tuned enough on its own to be competitive with Pulverize in single target?

2) Will it force bears, and other tanks to carry a stack of the reagents themeselves?

3) Do you think this change is counter intuitive and will also be changed at some point?

1) Honestly I don't use pulverize on alpha/beta most of the time, but it has its uses. Brambles is objectively superior when taking a lot of quick, weak hits. Pulverize gets relatively stronger as the hits get harder. A lot of this answer will depend on your gear level relative to the content (the more you overgear, the stronger brambles will be).

2) Doubtful. It just means you should build your talents for the more challenging content, and suck it up otherwise. The time it takes to make everyone use this new "table" item will probably not be worth the time you might have saved with the ideal talents on everyone.

3) This is absolutely dumb. It goes against everything the talents were stated to be designed for since mop, and basically forces at you to suck at something, rather than pick the right tools for the job (which is EXACTLY what they said they wanted with the legion revamp). It seems to come out of no where, due to a vocal minority bitching about respec costs (which are completely and totally insignificant when factoring in gold inflation and how much you get via world quests in legion).

[hyperhyve]

FILTHY LIES!

Though seriously I bet it will for most people. For me though It will make me giggle madly because I love stupid things sometimes.

I know the laz0r-spam of GG has been discussed quite a lot here. After intensive testing however, I would say that at the end of the day it's just another mechanic, you don't have to think about a whole lot.
What is much more worrying about the talent is the amount of rage you're able to generate with moonfire. The 15 rage the GG-procced Moonfire generates pushes it above Mangle (which generates a mere 6 rage) in our priority list. That is when not specced into Guardian of Elune. In that case Mangle would still have top priority prior to planned AM uses.
Moonfire, for me, seems like a nice addition to the Guardian kit, which fits the class fantasy quite nicely (I know, some people think otherwise). If it starts to push to the top of our priority list, however, that seems rather troublesome to me.
Any thoughts on that ?

[ryudaraku]

I would say that at the end of the day it's just another mechanic, you don't have to think about a whole lot.

Honestly that is a great deal of WoW class mechanics, even the "hard" stuff like Dot Snapshotting was relegated to "Don't think about a whole lot cause weak auras does it for you" in my opinion.

What is much more worrying about the talent is the amount of rage you're able to generate with moonfire. The 15 rage the GG-procced Moonfire generates pushes it above Mangle (which generates a mere 6 rage) in our priority list. That is when not specced into Guardian of Elune. In that case Mangle would still have top priority prior to planned AM uses.

I think this is something of a good thing, since it means you get to have a little choice between what you do. Mangle Should be doing far more damage on hit than a Moonfire will (and if you are proccing GG then the dot should be on the target anyways). Do you use Mangle and hit for 400% (+20% extra if you got a bleed) or do you hit for 90% and generate extra rage.

That is the sort of gameplay I advocate for tanks..not exactly as I would implement personally but what hey if they fall into it accidentally I wouldn't complain.

[Nevcairiel]

What I find most annoying about the absolute GG madness right now is the visual effects. If you have a collection of mobs on you, you can practically not see any ground based effects on account of constant moonfire glow around everything.

Anyway, there is no doubt in my mind that 50% GG is a mistake. What I am a bit worried about is Guardian DPS though, at least single target. GG does about 30% of my damage, and without it, it feels very weak leveling or soloing. I do hope leveling as bear does not become a real chore.

[Ooshraxa]

I do hope leveling as bear does not become a real chore.

Bear (heh!) in mind that most of the artifact power that you gain while levelling is controllable - as in: You collect it, and then return to the class hall to enhance your artifact.

Which means that you can level as cat/boomkin if Bear is too slow, and then use the gained artifact power on the Claws of Ursoc.
There are a couple of quests which automatically gives artifact power to the currently wielded artifact, but I don't know if they are clearly marked.

As an example, I saw Finalboss do a couple of shaman-specific "star" events on his stream - they didn't have a "rewards 50 artifact power" text, but rewarded it anyway after event completion. I hesitate to call them quests, because they are are more of a minigame.

So not-clearly-marked quests/events will be "wasted" on the DPS artifact if you level in a DPS spec, but most of your artifact power can be diverted into the artifact of your choosing.

[Nevcairiel]

Bear (heh!) in mind that most of the artifact power that you gain while levelling is controllable - as in: You collect it, and then return to the class hall to enhance your artifact.

Which means that you can level as cat/boomkin if Bear is too slow, and then use the gained artifact power on the Claws of Ursoc.
There are a couple of quests which automatically gives artifact power to the currently wielded artifact, but I don't know if they are clearly marked.

I've hit maybe one quest that gave me artifact power directly in my travels to 108 (so far), so thats always the fallback option indeed.
I would however still like to level as Bear, since I just like that playstyle more than switching to DPS for the first month of the expac until my bear has gear to solo better. I should get a chance to test more with character copy closer to the end of the beta, as my gear will likely carry me at least until 105-106 or so, when the level gear catches up to mythic loot.

With broken GG the bear dps in single target is about where I would hope it should be. Not quite the level of a DPSer, but close enough.
In AoE GG is ridiculous though, as it procs from every thrash or swipe.

[Ooshraxa]

I would however still like to level as Bear, since I just like that playstyle more than switching to DPS for the first month of the expac until my bear has gear to solo better.

Oh, I agree completely. I usually level as a Tank - partly because I am the only active tank in my small friends & family guild, so I usually get to see the insides of every leveling dungeon multiple times.

Questing in tank spec is relaxing as well, since you have many "oh, crap!" options. Aren't they aiming for ~70% DPS spec damage on tanks?

[Nevcairiel]

Aren't they aiming for ~70% DPS spec damage on tanks?

Thats what I heard, and with broken GG thats also where I'm roughly at, but we'll have to see how it turns out.

[huth]

Bear (heh!) in mind that most of the artifact power that you gain while levelling is controllable - as in: You collect it, and then return to the class hall to enhance your artifact.

That, and the AP gained while leveling is but a miniscule fraction of the total AP needed. Most traits cost more per point than the first twelve combined.

[zurm]

My experience on alpha and beta thus far is that not only is leveling as a bear feasible, it's darn efficient. Unlike a dps, you don't pull one mob at a time, you easily pull 3-6 and cleave them down. Since tanks have much more potent passive cleave than a dps, this is just playing to your strengths. Broken galactic guardian just makes this a little more autopilot as you don't have to worry about maintaining moonfire.

Plus as a tank all those rares with high hp and dangerous abilities are a joke for you, they just take a bit longer to bring down. With resto affinity I can always pop into caster and throw a rejuv + swiftmend if something takes me below 70% hp, and I get enough passive healing where it keeps me up while aoe tanking the weak mobs.

[Kioga]

Why wouldn't you use Pulverize on trash? The new design should make it very easy to keep up on trash, unless it dies within 10 seconds or so (in which case you could just pop a cooldown to cover it if you need to).

I'm not on Alpha/Beta but some of the other testers have said they are currently running Brambles with Pulverize only being for bosses, so that is what I was basing my questions on.
- - - Updated - - -

Has anyone been able to do any testing of the Legendaries available for Bears?

I'm guessing the pants (thrash can stack 2 more times) are a likely top contenter just because of the large stat pool on the higher ilvl item. Also nice if you are running the Rend and Tear talent.

Neck and Ring both have nice equip effects but the boots and wrists aren't terrible.

[Deleted]

I was leveling from 100 until 110 without changing talents at any single time. Brambles + Moonkin Aff + Earthwarden + GG + Lunar Beam. Lunar Beam and Rage of the Sleeper were quite nice for AoEing larger Packs (DPS and Healing/Mitigation wise). Moonkin Aff was nice for Nuking Quest "Bosses" and also for the range (Pulling). I never had Issues with healing or something, so Resto Aff was worthless for me. Lunar Beam + FR were enough while fighting. When I dropped too low after a pull I used 1-2x Healing Touch and thats all.

The level Process will be muuuuch easier on Live with Mythic HFC Gear as it already was on Beta with greens.