1. #6221
    shadow doesn't have aoe choices period. the only aoe tools we had in WoD (which were already embarrassingly bad for 50%+ of the expac) are being removed.

    since shadow's single target is being toned down to median-ish, I highly doubt shadow will have a niche where they actually make up for the spec's mechanical inflexibility. the only possibility would be something like another large buff to voidbolt's damage so our small-cooldown target swap/priority damage becomes significantly better than the field (with 4t19). however, this is a hard niche to actually make relevant because you can just add more and more dps with meaningful burst cooldowns to cover for it. or, of course, a 5 minute vaelastrasz style fight where we're in execute the entire time and can cheese it with STM.

    the gratuitous wonkiness of how multidot and voidbolt refreshes work really just show that blizzard doesn't care about what playing a shadowpriest actually feels like. this is the most egregious example of being hyper button bash super short gcd locked for mediocre results that any spec has ever been. that our multitarget efficacy has such a low target cap means we have to compare our tools to the super OP cleaves that are in game - and unless arms wars or destro warlocks are undertuned memes there's no way our 3 target spread dps will be worth bothering with compared to very well controlled free cleave (along with meaningful burst cooldowns, etc).

  2. #6222
    One thing that is pissing me off atm is that Celestalon is not answering to any class since the beta started. He sure took time to play the beta tho, maybe he wanted to see how it feels first/want to let the new players really experience (especially since the phasing is now gone) before doing anything. I hope that's the reason.

    Anyway :
    -Shadowfiend needs to generate insanity baseline, Mindbender needs to cleave or just do something for Shadowfiend because atm, I really don't see the point of such a spell. (also the glyph of sha only works on the Shadowfiend, not on Mindbender on the beta)

    There are a lot of other stuff but we've already talked about them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also about our champions : I'm really disappointed. Many of them are disc/holy and we only have one shadow bodyguard. I want a shadowpriest champion's spell like the holy/disc one.
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  3. #6223
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilee25 View Post
    There's some speculation in my guild that the point of this is that the talents are supposed to be balanced and viable to the point that you just pick what you enjoy playing. You shouldn't have to swap per encounter, but instead be able to pick the ones that fit how you like to play. The idea is that some balancing will be done between now and live to shore everything up and make sure that the talents play well and are viable no matter what you pick. I guess we'll just have to wait and see...
    Man I like your guild, such optimists... I have a hard time believing that we will get a viable competitive AOE choice but here here for glass half full!

  4. #6224
    That talent swap thing is probably the most brain dead solution to a non issue I have ever seen them invent. It just punishes optimization heavily. I can't wait to queue in to a dungeon and inform my group that they need to wait while I port out to swap talents and port back in. For me that is pretty quick because of my setup/pc, but for others.....oh boy. I remember my old raid main tank would have his computer near lock up in loading screens for 30 seconds lol.

  5. #6225
    Or you could just pick the talents that you think are fun and use those. Might be the idea behind it.

    I would much rather go back to the days where mechanical skill and situational awareness defined a top tier DPS, not 'who's got the best talents'. Because, invariably, it as shit isn't Shadow Priests. The impact of talents needs to be vastly diluted.
    Last edited by davesignal; 2016-05-17 at 06:49 PM.

  6. #6226
    Quote Originally Posted by davesignal View Post
    Or you could just pick the talents that you think are fun and use those. Might be the idea behind it.

    I would much rather go back to the days where mechanical skill and situational awareness defined a top tier DPS, not 'who's got the best talents'. Because, invariably, it as shit isn't Shadow Priests. The impact of talents needs to be vastly diluted.
    The problem with the talent swap direction is that it has serious problems with it in how they suggest. The heart of the idea isn't terrible imo, but the execution has serious flaws.

  7. #6227
    That's pretty much Blizzard in a nutshell.

  8. #6228
    I'll have to respectfully disagree. When we moved away from talent trees into just rows of talents, they made talent swapping for different situations a thing. Something that didn't happen before MoP. It goes against the very idea they had when the implemented the new talent system.

  9. #6229
    Quote Originally Posted by davesignal View Post
    That's pretty much Blizzard in a nutshell.
    Lol true. I feel like talent swaps should be easy between bosses, available at the start of normal 5 mans, restricted in arenas, CMs, and RBGs to just the very beginning before you start, and questing I don't care all that much. I don't see what the issue is with allowing free swaps out in the world while preventing swaps in the middle of arenas/rbgs/CMs and restricting raid swaps to in between bosses...the current system is nearly perfect as is minus the mildly irritating stack of tomes you need.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Djriff View Post
    I'll have to respectfully disagree. When we moved away from talent trees into just rows of talents, they made talent swapping for different situations a thing. Something that didn't happen before MoP. It goes against the very idea they had when the implemented the new talent system.
    Yeah I don't have an issue if they switch back to less speccing optimally for a situation, but this hybrid pseudo thing is hot garbage.....just pick one or the other...

  10. #6230
    Quote Originally Posted by Djriff View Post
    I'll have to respectfully disagree. When we moved away from talent trees into just rows of talents, they made talent swapping for different situations a thing. Something that didn't happen before MoP. It goes against the very idea they had when the implemented the new talent system.
    Maybe, but is it a good thing? Before that, classes had to have the ability to deal with different situations as part of their base kit. You played a class and you knew the whole thing completely, knew whether or not you liked it, and you got to know it like the back of your hand.

  11. #6231
    True and for the most part it's not radically different now. Talents tend to add to our toolkit (in legion) rather than change our gameplay completely. WoD is the exception to the rule.

    Look at mages in WoD for example. They have some talents that sync up greatly together and have different strengths. It slightly changes how you play, but overall the class plays the same.

  12. #6232
    Pandaren Monk shanthi's Avatar
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    This new talent swap thing really doesn't affect raiding much at all. It's just one more thing to stock the guild bank with and drop before boss fights like feasts (or the new-old flask cauldrons). The scribe item allows everyone in the group to change their talents.

    It's more aimed at not being able to switch talents up constantly out in the world and dungeons because (according to Watcher, anyway) that removes the idea of choices--you'll always have the best talent activated at all times.

    I'm not a big fan of the changes, but it's not going to add a whole bunch more time overhead to raiding (how much gold cost it adds remains to be seen) or prevent you from min/maxing talents boss to boss.
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  13. #6233
    Quote Originally Posted by davesignal View Post
    Or you could just pick the talents that you think are fun and use those. Might be the idea behind it.

    I would much rather go back to the days where mechanical skill and situational awareness defined a top tier DPS, not 'who's got the best talents'. Because, invariably, it as shit isn't Shadow Priests. The impact of talents needs to be vastly diluted.
    That's possible only if the talents are 95% balanced against each other in terms of relative performance. And, knowing how Blizzard does things, we usually have a choice of superb talent, meh talent and absolutely shit talent in a single row.

    New talent shit does not harm shadow priest in a slightest, because we already have only one viable talents setup, seriously (unless you count MB vs shadowcrash a serious choice, which I don't at the moment).
    Last edited by l33t; 2016-05-17 at 09:24 PM.
    No more time wasted in WoW.. still reading this awesome forum, though

  14. #6234
    Quote Originally Posted by davesignal View Post
    Or you could just pick the talents that you think are fun and use those. Might be the idea behind it.

    I would much rather go back to the days where mechanical skill and situational awareness defined a top tier DPS, not 'who's got the best talents'. Because, invariably, it as shit isn't Shadow Priests. The impact of talents needs to be vastly diluted.
    the classes that perform the best have always been the classes with the most flexibility, mobility and survivability. chicken or egg? hard to say. plus, sometimes this isn't clear until tier bonuses are finalized (balance t17 with wrath spam vs shadow being the ostensibly best at rapid burst).

  15. #6235
    Pandaren Monk shanthi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davesignal View Post
    Maybe, but is it a good thing? Before that, classes had to have the ability to deal with different situations as part of their base kit. You played a class and you knew the whole thing completely, knew whether or not you liked it, and you got to know it like the back of your hand.
    It's a good thing or a bad thing depending on what you're looking for out of class play. I prefer the "new talent paradigm," where talents can significantly alter how you play, because it creates some variation. And before, classes didn't have to have the ability to deal with different situations--classes/specs usually had niches and often huge deficits. That was, IMO, a defining feature of pre-Wrath WoW and what led, eventually, to "class homogenization"--the designers wanting to break away from that "this spec only does X and this class only does Y." But it's pretty difficult to give every class/spec equivalent AoE/single target/cleave/movement abilities while differentiating the classes and specs, so we've landed on a psuedo-customization approach, where you slide your priorities around based on the circumstance. It's not perfect, but it's my favorite incarnation of WoW class and spec design, in terms of giving people more situations that they can impact.

    I can see why it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, but I certainly think there's a good argument to be made for it.
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
    And with strange aeons even death may die.

  16. #6236
    The talent swap thing is just annoying. I don't really see any other way to describe it. Just makes it slower/more costly/more things to hold in your bags to do the same thing you used to be able to do. I often change talents between wipes on the same boss to find what works best, and that's going to be significantly more tedious now.

  17. #6237
    Yeah this doesn't change anything....it just makes what can already do significantly more tedious.

  18. #6238
    Is shadow word void useless ? That's a real question... I haven't taken it for like 2 months now and I don't feel like I need it. Is it just me or ?
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  19. #6239
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilir View Post
    Is shadow word void useless ? That's a real question... I haven't taken it for like 2 months now and I don't feel like I need it. Is it just me or ?
    I remember in the H2P discord it was discussed and considered useless in comparison to the other talents. Also considering that stuff gets pretty hectic once you get ~50% haste SW: V would just be sitting at times.

  20. #6240
    What about Mindspike? How's that one doing compared to the other two on the branch?

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