Casualization is the biggest problem wow: True or false

[Osmeric]

Had nothing to do with dungeons, but keep spouting that. Primary sub loss was actually due to 10 and 20 man integration.

It should be obvious that cannot be correct. What was Blizzard's reaction in MoP? 5 man's easier, 10/25 still there.

[Linri]

Game is getting older, and a lot of people have done almost everything, that is why the game is getting stale to a lot of players

[primalmatter]

Not directly, its blizzards thing of listening to elitist whiners, and reimplementing asanine grinds or stupid shit like gating flying behind achis locked till final patches. This causes players like me who grew up with wow and now have families and jobs to not wanna sink all my time into the game.

Those are casuals...

Never seen a raider ask for a rep grind...

[judgementofantonidas]

No sorry I don't buy into that narrative. I think what you're really saying is "casuals want raid gear without doing raids and anything that isn't a raid is easy so they don't deserve it", which I personally think is bullshit.

There can be challenging/rewarding non-raid content for solo players and small groups. The rewards CAN be competitive with raid gear but should take more time to acquire IMO. The trick is to get that ridiculous notion that raid content is the only challenging content and the only content that should give substantial character progression OUT of your head and realize it's simply doesn't have to be true. Legion is Blizzard's opportunity to prove that. We'll see if they succeed.

No. That is exactly what the more voluble posters on these forums want. They want the same thing as raiders because they pay the same 14 dollars. However they do not want to perform the same level of preparation, organization, or play at the same level of skill for these rewards. Period. Anything else is just pure equivocation or personal delusion. For the gear that non raiders want to be equivalent in level of challenge it would require it to be locked behind exactly that. Unforgiving challenge modes that they would soon cry about.

[Tomana]

Those are casuals...

Never seen a raider ask for a rep grind...

Nah, they ask for attunements instead

[Kyriani]

No. That is exactly what the more voluble posters on these forums want. They want the same thing as raiders because they pay the same 14 dollars. However they do not want to perform the same level of preparation, organization, or play at the same level of skill for these rewards. Period. Anything else is just pure equivocation or personal delusion. For the gear that non raiders want to be equivalent in level of challenge it would require it to be locked behind exactly that. Unforgiving challenge modes that they would soon cry about.

Again that mindset that "raiding is the only challenging content and the only one deserving of rewards that provide substantial character progression" is the problem. Consider this, back when players could earn valor points for gear (including tier), non-raiders had a way to earn raid quality gear, albeit at a much slower rate of acquisition than raiders could and even then with a limited selection. Back then there was progression for non-raiders that wasn't quite equivalent but close enough to keep players engaged. Raiders also benefited from this system as well.

Why that system had to change is anyone's guess but basically anyone who wasn't raiding in WoD was basically told to go fuck themselves (as far as meaningful character progression is concerned) and that design decision was just one of many that caused a mass exodus of subscribers IMO.

Meaningful character progression does not have to be, and frankly should not be, relegated solely raiding and/or "unforgiving challenge modes". We had a succesful model before where players could, albeit MUCH MORE SLOWLY, acquire at least some substantial character progression (tier and other high ilvl gear from valor) over time through playing other content. That was wounded in MoP (since valor came primarily from dailies but you couldnt spend it without also having rep) and basically died in WoD and the subscriber base suffered for it.

Fortunately it seems Blizz may be realizing this and making efforts in Legion to give alternative methods of advancement (open world content having the chance to upgrade drops to high ilvl for example). How well those efforts will pan out is up in the air until we see it for ourselves.

[Jinxz]

all a pvper needs is an opponent, or in most cases helpless prey, and a place to pew pew pew jump jump jump. pvpery is very self sufficient.

PvP requires PvP changes, as in class tunning/changes. There was almost none in WoD.

[Tomana]

No. That is exactly what the more voluble posters on these forums want. They want the same thing as raiders because they pay the same 14 dollars. However they do not want to perform the same level of preparation, organization, or play at the same level of skill for these rewards. Period. Anything else is just pure equivocation or personal delusion. For the gear that non raiders want to be equivalent in level of challenge it would require it to be locked behind exactly that. Unforgiving challenge modes that they would soon cry about.

I don't see why a crafted piece that took you through a chain of quests and a lot of effort in gathering mats can't have the same ilvl as something you get from normal or heroic raiding. Heck, you currently get them from garrison missions.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Outside of timeless isle that was the testing grounds for?

Treasure hunting, garrisons, invasions, improved daily questing, Apexis, daily cm rewards, mythic dungeons, rare mob hunting, a entire patch zone in tj, baneful gear, and weekly story quests.

It was truly a feast for the casual till they saw it didn't give better gear then the path of least resistance.

Casuals are their worst enemy hell blizz gave them easy to get 725 gear and most think it beneath them..

All of that was in mop but mythic dungeons and we actually had more...

Garrison is a worse version of tillers farm.
Treasure hunting was in mist and takes an hour to complete.
Rare mobs were in mist and they had unique loot.
World bosses and word mobs were in mist, we had more as well.
Weekly quest and invasion are a worse version of scenarios which were updated every major patch and had unique stories. We had some like 50+ total and they all took like 5+ minutes and didn't require revisiting a place you have been to 3000 times. They also came with unique stories.
We got timeless isle and isle of thunder in mist. All we got was Tanaan in warlord's.
We had more dailies in mist as well and not some no effort kill x for rep dailies. Daily quest didn't hit wod until Tanaan Jungle.
Brawler guild was updated every major patch and took a good few weeks to clear at launch. They didn't bring another version of it into warlord's.
We had reason to farm dungeons after getting geared for raids. We could even purchase raid gear and tier sets with our valor points.
We had valor point and justice point upgrades as well.
Mist had more pvp seasons.
Mist added battlegrounds.

We did get Ashran and Mythic dungeons but we lost a lot more for them.


Warlord's launched with a bunch of kill farming reputations but in mist players could collect stuff for rep and had actual quest at launch. We didn't get real dailies till Tanaan Jungle which is just a worse version timeless isle.

Raiders got mythic and special loot and lost a couple of bosses. Most casual content in warlord's was gutted when compared to mop. All warlord's honestly had in droves was raiding and the sub count went to shit, but let's make another thread about how raiding changes are killing wow. Let's not fix the issue everyone was bitching about which was a lack of content and find some convenient way to pretend raiding changes effect wow subs more drastically then a lack of shit to do for the majority.

[shimerra]

Those are casuals...

Never seen a raider ask for a rep grind...

Seems like you've never seen a raider do anything you didn't like. That's the casuals job.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Those are casuals...

Never seen a raider ask for a rep grind...

I've seen the ask for...

Attunements require reputation farming from time to time.
Resistance gear required reputation farming.

That's just off the top of my head.

[primalmatter]

Seems like you've never seen a raider do anything you didn't like. That's the casuals job.

Generally as insane as it sound we mostly only concern ourselves with dungeons and raids. Anything else we usually have to be dragged kicking and screaming into.

- - - Updated - - -

I've seen the ask for...

Attunements require reputation farming from time to time.
Resistance gear required reputation farming.

That's just off the top of my head.

Do they? I am struggling to think of one that did outside of tbc heroics and you got rep by running normal.

Resist gear was always complained about and one of the changes of removing it to make the game more casual that I enjoyed.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Generally as insane as it sound we mostly only concern ourselves with dungeons and raids. Anything else we usually have to be dragged kicking and screaming into.

- - - Updated - - -



Do they? I am struggling to think of one that did outside of tbc heroics and you got rep by running normal.

Resist gear was always complained about and one of the changes of removing it to make the game more casual that I enjoyed.

Veterans still want it back. I hate resist gear with a passion but they were raiders. Dungeons farming was still a rep grind and people wanted that back because it made sure you ran the normal version x amount of times. I wouldn't mind heroic/mythic dungeons being gated behind proving grounds because anyone who can finish that can do a heroics and it takes thirty minutes. I heard mythic dungeons were only doable with a pre-made group at launch that combine with proving grounds sounds like a nice compromise.

[primalmatter]

Veterans still want it back. I hate resist gear with a passion but they were raiders. Was still a rep grind and people wanted that back because it made sure you ran the normal version x amount of times. I wouldn't mind heroic/mythic dungeons being gated behind proving grounds because anyone who can finish that can do a heroic and it take thirty minutes.

I personally would be alright making people clear normal modes once or twice to get a heroic key. That being said we really haven't had a heroic dungeon since cata. Simply leveling dungeons and normal modes renamed to heroic.

Resist gear though... I find that hard to believe without seeing people argue for it back myself.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

I personally would be alright making people clear normal modes once or twice to get a heroic key. That being said we really haven't had a heroic dungeon since cata. Simply leveling dungeons and normal modes renamed to heroic.

Resist gear though... I find that hard to believe without seeing people argue for it back myself.

Look up wanna of those what changed in the game from Vanilla threads or vanilla vs the current game problems threads. People actually want resist gear farming back.

[Glorious Leader]

PvP requires PvP changes, as in class tunning/changes. There was almost none in WoD.

And to be honest pvpers what new BG's as well. The view that all they need is an opponent is stupid. That would not keep anyone happy.

- - - Updated - - -

Veterans still want it back. I hate resist gear with a passion but they were raiders. Dungeons farming was still a rep grind and people wanted that back because it made sure you ran the normal version x amount of times. I wouldn't mind heroic/mythic dungeons being gated behind proving grounds because anyone who can finish that can do a heroics and it takes thirty minutes. I heard mythic dungeons were only doable with a pre-made group at launch that combine with proving grounds sounds like a nice compromise.

It also basically insures that it will only serve as another venue for raiders to progress and will almost certainly be shut out for non raid casuals. I can't imagine the intended audience was for people who already had shit to do.

[pill8w]

Not directly, its blizzards thing of listening to elitist whiners, and reimplementing asanine grinds or stupid shit like gating flying behind achis locked till final patches. This causes players like me who grew up with wow and now have families and jobs to not wanna sink all my time into the game.

This man gets it. I took it further and just dissected the progression model to identify exactly what it is about that model that causes this reaction. For me it is the fact that no amount of time I spend ever gains a permanent progression toward my characters overall strength outside of leveling up to max level. The Dungeon gear and every raid tier all fail to remain appealing with time. So the only real enjoyment of the game comes from simply beating these challenges to begin with. Once you get drawn into the whole "gotta clear every lockout so I can keep ahead of the ilvl curve" then you have turned an enjoyable activity into a full time job and you know the entire time that the payout decays with the progress of time (and more content being added inevitably). People just get worn out over time at constantly needing to perform the same redundant tasks just to stay relevant to a group composition. I don't dislike that I am forced to overcome great challenges to be rewarded in this game. I dislike that those rewards mean absolutely jack-all in the scheme of playing the game with any long term regularity. You get in, enjoy the content and get out before the progression model ruins your enjoyment. The only time this is ever even worthy of your time is at the beginning of each xpansion where everything you are rewarded is relevant. Once that first content patch drops then the "grind" cycle starts anew and all of your previous rewards are diminished. It's analogous to a government printing new money to strengthen an economy. The value of that money is diminished as more and more money is added to the pool just as the value of gear diminishes as more and more gear is added to an xpansion. The older you get the less you feel like wasting your time on activities with fleeting rewards. To make an example of a system that doesnt do this, Diablo 3. All my D3 chars are decked out in gear that doesnt just become obsolete every time they add a new patch. Sometimes they upgrade stuff and make an older piece less valuable but it isnt a constant practice that sweepingly diminishes the entire set of rewards that you received from playing countless hours. WoW diminshes those rewards with every patch, so those rewards are a weak incentive to play the game. Once you experience the content in a patch you have nothing worth spending your time on that retains value. The memory of those first boss kills is the only thing I have after all of these years of playing that is of any value. Hopefully the new challenge mode system will provide content that breaks this model, i think it could but it is all going to depend on the devs design goals. If they want to keep waving the carrot on a stick in front of us to keep us playing, a lot of us are just going to play until we see the same old carrot theyve been waving in or face for years (by the time you get the carrot it's nearly rotted and a new carrot is placed on the stick... you want a rotten carrot or this new shiney carrot? Yea, we thought so.) I'll take my rotten carrot and move along to some game that gives me a whole garden to play in rather than trolling me along with a carrot dangling in front of my face. (a ton of other games do this too, you can keep all of those games, down with the rotten carrot agenda!)

[Daffan]

Wildstar called and it wants to have a chat with you.

Wilstar had too big raid sizes.

Was buggy

Nobody asked for timed stuff.

Sorry but it was a casuals playground. From what I listed to mythic dungeons. Raiders were the only ones ripped off. You were never given more to do... but you just followed the easy loot.

EXACTLY.

What exactly can even a casual 1 hour a week player do in WoW to progress?

He can afk in a battleground, get 700 item level and then he can decide if he wants to do
Heroic/Mythic HFC. If not, then he is done the game.

Professions, Normal/Heroic/Mythic dungeons, world content, quest content, garrison and reps
are all trivial garbage for even the most casual player now.

This game is being designed for people who play 1 hour a month it feels like.

Casuals aren't bad players, they just have less time - Plz Blizzard stop treating them like they need
free gear and instant gear boosts to compete/play and enjoy the game.

This is bullshit. You are conflating bads to casuals again. I am a Casual and I LOVED the pre-nerf 5 man content in Cata. They told people to stop sucking and the shitty players bitched and moaned.

Bingo.

Casuals = Low time. Could be good/bad

Hardcore = High time. Could be good/bad

Remember, it was the raiders who wanted catchup mechanisms for their alts and replacement raiders. Catering to raiders destroys raiding. :P

Initially people asked for account-wide attunements and instead they got this junk.

An MMO cannot be for hardcores only, because there are too few of them. But an MMO could be for casuals only. The hardcores aren't needed. I'd argue a casual-only MMO would actually be more successful, if it retained the casuals better than a conflicted design that tried (and failed) to please everyone.

Sure, but what kind of content would the casual MMO have?

Could you beat the raids in 1 week because it's tuned for Casuals and then everyone complains there is nothing to do?

Outside of timeless isle that was the testing grounds for?

Treasure hunting, garrisons, invasions, improved daily questing, Apexis, daily cm rewards, mythic dungeons, rare mob hunting, a entire patch zone in tj, baneful gear, and weekly story quests.

It was truly a feast for the casual till they saw it didn't give better gear then the path of least resistance.

Casuals are their worst enemy hell blizz gave them easy to get 725 gear and most think it beneath them..

Just catching up on this quote monster.

Exactly right.

""OMG WHERE IS ALL THE NEW CONTENT - I HAVE 710 PVP GEAR HELLO???" in 2 weeks.

And catch-up mechanisms are needed, because if you don't implement them you get an "can't gear up an alt" issues because no one raids old instances, and you are undergeared for new ones. Also the case of "i'm bored of my character, i should roll another one, oh, wait it will take more than two months to get relevant, i'll probably unsub and play dota"

Account wide attunements. Account wide catchup for ALTS.

Never had a problem in Vanilla/TBC with people raiding old instances. And those expansions did not have CRZ/Flexible/B.net/Premade or any QoL tools. You basically had your single server trade chat and that was it.

Now you have REGION WIDE PREMADE FINDER.

[kary]

Linear progression is fun until you main several characters.
:/
Anyway I still dunno where people get the content drought from. If you go to a restaurant and don't like what they are serving/choose not to eat it, it would be dishonest to say that the restaurant has no food.

I got mostly everything I wanted this expansion already, just missing out on archimonde mount, tbh. I have alts I can play, but don't want to. I wouldn't say that there's a drought, I'd say that I'd rather kill myself than gear my monk. I can... just don't want to.

And as someone that's been attuned to *everything* in the game, removing attunements wasn't a great idea. I'd really prefer for attunements to be account flagged, yeah. One could argue that the tech didn't exist back then, but it does now.

[Marrilaife]

All my D3 chars are decked out in gear that doesnt just become obsolete every time they add a new patch.

The countless times they made something like "this weapon now adds 200% dmg to the skill it was giving utility before, this change is not retroactive" just made me pissed off with diablo, set buffs are retroactive, but I'd have to constantly refarm weapons and accessories like bracers just because they added something to keep up with power creep.

I quit diablo some months ago when I was proud of clearing gr35, I returned last (previous) season and I did something like 55 with less effort, that's how bad power creep is there.

This season it goes even higher but I didn't go far into it because generally seasons are horrible experience for me, every single time I have to refarm my shit from 0, no gold, no paragons, no crafting mats, no keystones, no legendary gems, so it feels even worse than the "catch up mechanisms" wow puts in patches. And especially when I pick a character / class that cannot jump into reasonable farming speed fast it's so bloody slow to bypass the part "you're shit suffer through it" I just give up. Last season my invoker crusader went through "shit" phase reasonably fast, then I just spent some longer time farming for last few pieces to get season journey done. This season my crusader sucks and I just have no pleasure from the game. Maybe I should have picked different class for the free set, but too late now.

I don't know how anyone can claim diablo is an example of well done end game. I went to diablofans forums and all I saw is meta sucks, it's all 3 supports and 1 dps wizard, everything is about speedfarming paragons and gems for caldesans, etc. And since the rework of wailing host rings (legacy of nightmares) half the classes are pigeon holed into builds that require your character to be decked not only in correct legendaries, but all ancient ones. It's as if my wow raiding character had to have all pieces warforged socketed or it would be useless. No thanks.

One thing I'm dreading is the "diabloization" of wow. Randomized gear (both in stats and in power level / ilvl), world drop legendaries, etc. Diablo is grindy, repetitive, bores me fast and you never get rewarded a "perfect" piece of gear, you can only judge how far from perfect it is, if you're lucky, not very far. In WOW you used to get a BIS piece and feel satisfied you got it. Nowadays, not anymore... "Oh, I got a Kihra's! ...Bleh it's only 710 and I need 725." Or fighting over Archimonde trinket just to see in the end it's yet another non-warforged one.