[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Vintersol]

I'm shocked that people on beta realm claim that rets are GREAT.

"We have steed for mobility"
"We have strong AoE if we specc for it"
"Support is way better than on live, especially with the new blessings"

We are fucked!

[Taeldorian]

I'm shocked that people on beta realm claim that rets are GREAT.

"We have steed for mobility"
"We have strong AoE if we specc for it"
"Support is way better than on live, especially with the new blessings"

We are fucked!

If you see the feedback thread, there's only 1 or 2 people throughout the entire 6 pages that believe ret is good. You also need to understand the difference between fun and working as intended. Some people think the rotation is fun, that's fine. That's completely subjective. I would find the rotation fun if the judgement mechanic actually worked with our resource system, but it doesn't. The voices saying judgement doesn't work with our resource system, it's clunky, we have shit mobility and our utility doesn't cancel that out etc, are the majority in the thread.

You seem like a cool dude, I'd like to hear some actual feedback from you rather than "We're screwed" or "rets suck" every other week.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Inquisition was annoying and tedious(Same thing lol). The buff itself was pretty OP to if I recall.

Increase Holy Damage and even increase Crit chance. It was a pretty nasty maintenance buff. I wouldn't want it back if it meant nerfing our regular abilities to compensate(Don't make the buff so strong then? :P).
@Bolt66: I don't see us getting a Holy bar of some sort honestly. Probably too late for that but if and when it happens. It would need to function differently from rage(And maelstrom resource so it's *unique*).

[Deleted]

"We have steed for mobility"
"We have strong AoE if we specc for it"
"Support is way better than on live, especially with the new blessings"

Link or it didn´t happen. Well at least I will pretend such comments do not exist.

what bugs me the most of the 3 comments is the 3rd one. Teh fuk? Instant flash? double sac? double BoP? For whom in his right mind are those things lesser support than 3 chars with a FIXED buff?

ok this will just incite a discussion if flash is worth it and that BoP is just a gimmic. But even when I reduce this to ONLY double sac I hard pressed to consider blessing the better option...

[Ulthane]

I am traumatised by inquisition. I don't want anything to do with it. Buffs that remove penalties aren't any good. Inquisition like buffs are just self inflicted nerfs.

I only brought it up since huntingbear mentioned having a mini cd. It was based off what he said, this wouldn't cost Holy power. Just a mini cooldown.

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@Bolt66 Oh well then -gives you cookies- but good god yea I think all of us are on the same page then. At this point I'm looking at what's being said enmasse and putting it together in ano organized manner.

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@Ulthane Seal were removed since they havn´t been updated mechanically sicne they were implemented. The iteration I was referring to would have changed them to basically stances. Which in itself is not a bad thing as long as they have a significant impact on how you play. They would have been miles better than warrior stances who were just gates for certain abilities which you could easily macro (bersi stance for recklessness says hello).

If you look at the suggestion below you can see that they would have a significant impact on our play style. Hell if you want to you could give us just 2 judgements (judgement of truth/righteousness) and give it the mastery effects I described. They could save face and keep the current judge as judgement of truth for single target (I feel dirty suggesting it) while actually allowing us to do at least somewhat decent AE with judgement of righteousness (could have the old mass judge effect - duration buff).

It might not be the most engaging solution but it would definitely call for adapted play styles depending on judge.

This is also true

[Taeldorian]

@Bolt66 Oh well then -gives you cookies- but good god yea I think all of us are on the same page then. At this point I'm looking at what's being said enmasse and putting it together in ano organized manner.

Which is an excellent idea. It's wonderful to keep track of everything.

[Ulthane]

Which is an excellent idea. It's wonderful to keep track of everything.

I'm actually intrigued by abilities causing Judgment to go off which Nuin brought up. Could make the entire 15 row very interesting.

Though in terms of actual proc away from DP I go to an earlier statement where Art of War could proc Blade of Justice.

Also someone mentioned a rage bar... well... Holy Warrior ya? Holy Power rage bar <_<

[Bolt66]

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@Bolt66 Oh well then -gives you cookies- but good god yea I think all of us are on the same page then. At this point I'm looking at what's being said enmasse and putting it together in ano organized manner.

*Enjoys cookie
I think that's a great idea though. I'd be happy to add it to my own feedback, as I'm sure anyone else with beta access would.

Inquisition was annoying and tedious(Same thing lol). The buff itself was pretty OP to if I recall.

Increase Holy Damage and even increase Crit chance. It was a pretty nasty maintenance buff. I wouldn't want it back if it meant nerfing our regular abilities to compensate(Don't make the buff so strong then? :P).
@Bolt66: I don't see us getting a Holy bar of some sort honestly. Probably too late for that but if and when it happens. It would need to function differently from rage(And maelstrom resource so it's *unique*).

As I said before too, I did not find maintenance buffs fun either so I'm with you there. I would much rather have the damage baked into my abilities and have some sort of fun interaction instead.
The holy bar thing was just an idea. If it was to be implemented I'd see it being closer to energy or D3 Crusader's Wrath, so that it starts full, regenerates, and is used through spenders. I'm so okay with not being "unique" as Blizz sees it since that equates to crappy mechanics that no one else wants.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

As I said before too, I did not find maintenance buffs fun either so I'm with you there. I would much rather have the damage baked into my abilities and have some sort of fun interaction instead.
The holy bar thing was just an idea. If it was to be implemented I'd see it being closer to energy or D3 Crusader's Wrath, so that it starts full, regenerates, and is used through spenders. I'm so okay with not being "unique" as Blizz sees it since that equates to crappy mechanics that no one else wants.

I understand but I think Blizzard just doesn't want the whole homogenization thing all over and I respect that. I wouldn't dislike the Crusader from D3 resource. It would be a nice change of pace and be pretty cool. We are pretty Wrathful against evil and such yadda yadda.

Different resource name would be nice called Wrath and function as you describe it.


Beta Update: Messed around with Arms warrior. I mean if you are ok with just spam abilities and praying you don't run out of rage(Your auto attacks seem to generate rage and they offer A LOT. Without those auto attacks generating a lot of rage, you're fucked. The problem I see is, Colossus Smash is on a heavy cooldown so for most of a fight minus a Tactician proc(And it's very rare based on what I've done so far) It could be improved if the Tactician proc was RPPM


Unless it is already and I'm just having bad luck. Either way, I don't see TOO much excitement in Arms Warriors. It's pretty meh. I wouldn't want it because I don't like having to depend on autoattacks for my rage to be generated. Kalgan don't even start with "PEOPLE LIKE SLOWER PLAYSTYLE" BS, it isn't fun sitting and waiting for a CD to go off or rage/resource to generate.


That's what I saw for Arms Warriors. Read and weap.

[Taeldorian]

Lobster summed everything up pretty well in his last post. I think what he summed up is basically what we've come to agree on in here for the most part. Hopefully Blizzard will actually look into our feedback.

As for arms warriors, they have it bad, yeah, so do other classes. Shouldn't stop us from telling Blizzard what we need for ret to be good though. I do feel for arms warriors though, it's a shitty playstyle that is heavily reliant on RNG and its uncontrollable. Not something I'd touch with a 10 ft pole and this is after playing it 2-3 times.

[Bolt66]

I understand but I think Blizzard just doesn't want the whole homogenization thing all over and I respect that. I wouldn't dislike the Crusader from D3 resource. It would be a nice change of pace and be pretty cool. We are pretty Wrathful against evil and such yadda yadda.

Different resource name would be nice called Wrath and function as you describe it.


Beta Update: Messed around with Arms warrior. I mean if you are ok with just spam abilities and praying you don't run out of rage(Your auto attacks seem to generate rage and they offer A LOT. Without those auto attacks generating a lot of rage, you're fucked. The problem I see is, Colossus Smash is on a heavy cooldown so for most of a fight minus a Tactician proc(And it's very rare based on what I've done so far) It could be improved if the Tactician proc was RPPM


Unless it is already and I'm just having bad luck. Either way, I don't see TOO much excitement in Arms Warriors. It's pretty meh. I wouldn't want it because I don't like having to depend on autoattacks for my rage to be generated. Kalgan don't even start with "PEOPLE LIKE SLOWER PLAYSTYLE" BS, it isn't fun sitting and waiting for a CD to go off or rage/resource to generate.


That's what I saw for Arms Warriors. Read and weap.

I could get on board with being more wrathful
I find it so funny that Blizz removed Holy Power from Prot, given that a lot of Ret players disliked the system while Prot paladins liked it for the most part.

I haven't tried Arms out really but Fury feels pretty good.

[Ulthane]

In regard to the d3 Crusader I'd fully expect Fist of the Heavens, Akarat's champion, Falling Sword, Heavens Fury etc lolol

Which brings a point, instead of a buff cd that's like inquisition that I said before, why not falling sword or Heavens Fury. Btw, Falling Sword animation is in game. Look at the Crusader Murlock pet.

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And/or bring Laws as a raid buff.

[Vintersol]

Link or it didn´t happen.

That was ingame in /1 ^^

[Ulthane]

Passive effect for you, activate effect for raid. Example

Law of Valor:
-Passive: Chance on hit to refresh the CD of Blade of Justice.
-Active: Double all proc chances for all party and raid members for x seconds.

Shit like that ad a unique raid wide cd.

[Deleted]

That was ingame in /1 ^^

you are to make screenshots of such blasphemy! So we, as the order, can purge the unclean, the heretics, the mislead!

[Ulthane]

I could get on board with being more wrathful
I find it so funny that Blizz removed Holy Power from Prot, given that a lot of Ret players disliked the system while Prot paladins liked it for the most part.

I haven't tried Arms out really but Fury feels pretty good.

Probably going to take the following when I get home and do a compile post on the d3 idea in tandem with the general feedback.

[Deleted]

-I think if we're going to go to 10 for HoPo then it might just be time to make it work like a rage bar and get rid of the points.

The holy bar thing was just an idea. If it was to be implemented I'd see it being closer to energy or D3 Crusader's Wrath, so that it starts full, regenerates, and is used through spenders. I'm so okay with not being "unique" as Blizz sees it since that equates to crappy mechanics that no one else wants.

Personally, I wouldn't like a "Wrath Bar" or something the like for Paladin because of the fact that - like you already said - it's a mechanic already used by many specs.

To go a bit more into detail:
- "Rage" bar type mechanics are used by: All warrior specs, all DK specs, Enhancer Shaman, Guardian Druid, DH specs (somewhat similar)
- "Energy" bar type mechanics are used by: All rogue specs, WW & BM Monk, Feral Druid, all hunter specs
So, to sum it up every melee spec apart from Ret has such a mechanic. Rather boring, isn't it?

I understand well that many think of Holy Power as boring, being a cheap copy of CP, clunky and tedious, and I partially agree on this. However, I also count myself towards the minority that actually like Ret having Holy Poweras their mechanic, I just don't like it's implementation and the fact that Blizzard holds onto it as is. If interested, please read my take on this matter further below.

For me, in theory Holy Power is the process in which a Paladin is slowly imbued by the light to magnify his powers, to strengthen himself with and harness it to smite evil. In theory. in practice however, it doesn't feel like that at all - we just build up CP to unlock stronger attacks, spend them on said attacks and repeat. We don't interact much with our Holy Power apart from generating and spending it.
My take on this is that I want to interact more with it as only spending it for stronger attacks. Slow generation a bit down but instead introduce short CD (from 5 sec to 15 sec or so) abilities - via talents so you can pick what you rather like - serving as fillers and interacting with your HoPo without spending it, like increasing in damage the more OR less you have, get additional effects or increased duration. You could say a bit like Balance Druid, but still something entirely different. Imo this would set Ret apart from other melee specs, make the spec pretty versatile regarding HOW you'd like to play, and most of all fun to play.

I don't want to spam my "backseat developing" (<thanks Reghame) in here further. But if you're really interested in the matter, just read my overhaul on Ret that has some talent concepts like that in it. It's somewhere around here on the Paladin Board.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Combopoint-style based gameplay w/o no-cooldown CP-generators, but with an retarded Colossusm Smash of Judgement on top.
Sure, why the feth not.

It should be either or either, not both.

[Deleted]

Lobster summed everything up pretty well in his last post. I think what he summed up is basically what we've come to agree on in here for the most part. Hopefully Blizzard will actually look into our feedback.

As for arms warriors, they have it bad, yeah, so do other classes. Shouldn't stop us from telling Blizzard what we need for ret to be good though. I do feel for arms warriors though, it's a shitty playstyle that is heavily reliant on RNG and its uncontrollable. Not something I'd touch with a 10 ft pole and this is after playing it 2-3 times.

It really isn't that bad. I totally disagree aswell, arms has better tools than Ret (for example they have a mass colossus smash now, aswell as the ability to have badestorm + avatar and a baseline single target filler. Unlike Ret the spec is evolving from its WoD state in terms of options). The only problem i see with the arms spec is the rage starvation. Regardless, the warrior class has the fury spec to fall back on. Having a spec that plays a bit differently is not a big deal. Ret on the other hand doesn't have that option.

I mean this from a PvE pov. I know that in PvP they are glass cannons. But unlike Ret's, warriors unify when defending their class. So, they make things look worse than they actually are and make people feel sorry for them. Not for a second are they worse off than Ret in this current beta.

[Taeldorian]

It really isn't that bad. I totally disagree aswell, arms has better tools than Ret (for example they have a mass colossus smash now, aswell as the ability to have badestorm + avatar and a baseline single target filler. Unlike Ret the spec is evolving from its WoD state in terms of options). The only problem i see with the arms spec is the rage starvation. Regardless, the warrior class has the fury spec to fall back on. Having a spec that plays a bit differently is not a big deal. Ret on the other hand doesn't have that option.

I mean this from a PvE pov. I know that in PvP they are glass cannons. But unlike Ret's, warriors unify when defending their class. So, they make things look worse than they actually are and make people feel sorry for them. Not for a second are they worse off than Ret in this current beta.

Never once said arms is worse than ret. I said it's bad and I wouldn't touch it but that doesn't mean arms is worse. I don't main a warrior so that's why it's easy for me to say I'm not going near that spec, as for ret I've mained a paladin since wrath which is when I started so I can't and won't say I'm not going to main paladin. I've already said I'm not playing ret though, going holy instead.

Also, no. In PvE they might have better tools (they don't) and much better mobility (they do, much much better) but arms is either spam slam or fish for CS procs which gets extremely boring after a while. It only took me around 3-4 hours of doing dungeons to get bored of it. Of course if arms sucks which it does, they do have fury which is something we don't have but we've never had that so it's not like this is a new thing. Again though, spam slam or fish for CS procs is the options arms has. We have talents that contribute to aoe and single target as well, the only thing that's restricting us from using them is the judgement mechanic. We should also have more utility than we do currently to make up for the shitty mobility we have but so far that hasn't happened and we haven't heard the devs voice about this issue yet.