[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Most likely it'd just change the prio to Felblade rather than First Blood, though that may be the case already with recent nerfs. Or, if you're in a guild group, telling your tank to place a boss against a wall and having the same effect, when possible. Retreat --> Rush is completely useless

How is that useless? It's a tasty playstyle, seriously gives in to the fantasy of the hyper mobile damage dealer, and i can imagine wouldn't do too terribly with the complimentary talents to go with it. Metric fucktons o' Fury for all the Chaos Strike spam your heart desires.

Although, taking Fel Mastery with Felblade in a single target situation would seem kind of redundant unless Felblade wasn't up in those situations where you're ridiculously unlucky with procs... well, even then the CD of Felblade is reduced by haste, so taking Fel Mastery with Felblade would be kinda redundant after all i suppose.

[Deleted]

Why would you use rush to get back to the boss? VR already gives the buff and overwriting it with a rush seems redundant. Felblade does the same thing, AND gives fury, and frees up rush for uses between the VRs for maximising the buff uptime. (or having it available to get out of fire on the floor)

Demon's Bite has a chance of resetting the cooldown of felblade, but I've had a hard time getting rid of my fury on some bosses so I rarely cast it. VR+Felblade gives 105 fury every 15 secs, and with high crit your CS gets refunded and have 50% to pop a demon soul that gives you 30 fury. Though, I haven't got the extra max fury from the weapon talents yet...

I can only imagine the insane fury generation with the T19 2set bonus...

...do we know if that 2set bonus works on the CS refunds btw?

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Why would you use rush to get back to the boss? VR already gives the buff and overwriting it with a rush seems redundant. Felblade does the same thing, AND gives fury, and frees up rush for uses between the VRs for maximising the buff uptime. (or having it available to get out of fire on the floor)

Demon's Bite has a chance of resetting the cooldown of felblade, but I've had a hard time getting rid of my fury on some bosses so I rarely cast it. VR+Felblade gives 105 fury every 15 secs, and with high crit your CS gets refunded and have 50% to pop a demon soul that gives you 30 fury. Though, I haven't got the extra max fury from the weapon talents yet...

And the 2 set bonus that gives 20% more Fury from all sources:

So.... much.... fury.

You make a good point that i completely and slightly stupidly overlooked: overwriting the buff.

[Deleted]

Oops, edited it before I saw your reply. :P

Great minds think alike and all that...

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Oops, edited it before I saw your reply. :P

Great minds think alike and all that...

*fist bump and all that*

[Mefistophelis]

I wonder how this talent swap restriction in raids will affect us Havoc players, since I guess people would want to try different combinations of talents in bosses, but now it would cost a hefty amount of resources to do so.

[Gracin]

It's funny, I just was testing Felblade while questing and was having a hard time at 105 of not overcapping fury. Seems to me that taking felblade would mean devaluing crit, so you can actually dump enough fury with non-crit chaos strikes to not overcap from using felblade. Although I'm sure simcraft would likely show overcapping fury is less of a dps loss than lower overall crit.

I get momentum next level and it is currently the badass talent to take, but it just seems a little backwards move out of range of a target to do more damage. Just curious for anyone who has tested Bloodlet, does it do the initial damage from throw glaive and then a bleed for 190% of the damage? Or does it just turn throw glaive into a bleed with no initial damage?

[ChakanDH]

It's funny, I just was testing Felblade while questing and was having a hard time at 105 of not overcapping fury. Seems to me that taking felblade would mean devaluing crit, so you can actually dump enough fury with non-crit chaos strikes to not overcap from using felblade. Although I'm sure simcraft would likely show overcapping fury is less of a dps loss than lower overall crit.
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I get momentum next level and it is currently the badass talent to take, but it just seems a little backwards move out of range of a target to do more damage. Just curious for anyone who has tested Bloodlet, does it do the initial damage from throw glaive and then a bleed for 190% of the damage? Or does it just turn throw glaive into a bleed with no initial damage?

Glaive damage plus bleed. Its just that 190% of the base damage isnt much at the moment, it really needs to be increased or base damage of throw glaive needs to go up.

[Factor]

How is that useless? It's a tasty playstyle, seriously gives in to the fantasy of the hyper mobile damage dealer, and i can imagine wouldn't do too terribly with the complimentary talents to go with it. Metric fucktons o' Fury for all the Chaos Strike spam your heart desires.

Although, taking Fel Mastery with Felblade in a single target situation would seem kind of redundant unless Felblade wasn't up in those situations where you're ridiculously unlucky with procs... well, even then the CD of Felblade is reduced by haste, so taking Fel Mastery with Felblade would be kinda redundant after all i suppose.

Its useless only from a maximizing Momentum uptime perspective. The gameplay is likely intended to be not using Felblade on CD with that build but saving it to charge back to melee range after vaulting or rushing away.

[videnfost]

Most likely it'd just change the prio to Felblade rather than First Blood, though that may be the case already with recent nerfs. Or, if you're in a guild group, telling your tank to place a boss against a wall and having the same effect, when possible. Retreat --> Rush is completely useless

Even with Animation cancelling, my current logging over a couple of hours is showing Felblade > First Blood. Blade Dance just got nerfed too hard to be useful on single target anymore. Death Sweep is garbage in Meta at this point as well because of the 30 Fury cost. Felblade is ~1.8% dmg increase over First Blood so far, which is great news if they truly intend to fix cancelling as we apparently won't be needing it. For VR anyway.

Seems to me that taking felblade would mean devaluing crit, so you can actually dump enough fury with non-crit chaos strikes to not overcap from using felblade.

Nah. Until you're literally never casting Demon's Bite, Crit will always be superior. If you're capping Fury, you likely want to plan your spending (i.e.: drop down to less than 20 before VR/Felblade). And/or you can grab Contained Fury for +30 max Fury on your artifact, which is not a bad pickup as it's in between our two current best Keystone artifact points (Anguish of the Deceiver and Rage of the Illidari) and it's also very helpful in managing 4 Annihilations during a Momentum inside Meta.

Although, taking Fel Mastery with Felblade in a single target situation would seem kind of redundant unless Felblade wasn't up in those situations where you're ridiculously unlucky with procs... well, even then the CD of Felblade is reduced by haste, so taking Fel Mastery with Felblade would be kinda redundant after all i suppose.

Your Felblade will never be on CD when you Vengeful Retreat, unless you're using it outside of a VR combination. None of that has anything to do with Felblade procs though.

That being said, Fel Mastery isn't necessarily redundant. Guaranteed Crit on Fel Rush is nothing to sneeze at. On my last few hours of logs, my Fel Rush has been doing a little over 5% of my total damage output since I'm using it for the Momentum buff. Aside from the damage increase, you also get 25 extra Fury when you're starting a new Momentum, which is pretty fucking useful.

When you compare 25 Fury per 10 sec to Demonic Appetite, you're already getting more Fury and the guaranteed Crit is icing on the cake. That's not even taking into consideration that DA procs might be unlucky and take a while, or whether or not the orb even spawns anywhere near you rather than across the map. Additionally, since DA was changed to give Lesser Soul Fragments it doesn't work with Feast on the Souls to reduce Eye Beam's cooldown and the healing is also now miniscule. It now gives something like 6.25% of max HP?

With all these things considered, I believe DA is not a contender within the first talent row for a Momentum build. I have yet to test how Fel Mastery compares to Blind Fury, but for sure Fel Mastery is not the worst. DA is nice for leveling though, if you need the small healing it does provide.

[Deleted]

Honestly I hope they change Momentum, I wasn't actually that upset about the whole animation cancelling as it added another aspect to the class and honestly it's the only way i'd be happy using Momentum..

Can you imagine how annoying it will be using FR in a mythic setting? tactics tend to revolve around stacking/ standing in a certain place/ not killing someone else with a debuff etc and having to use FR or VR every 10s and 25s will be a pain in the arse... honestly I can't see it being used for half the fights just due to the fact that you won't be able to use the spells and will have to sit on the 'CD' which will result in a dps loss compared to the other talents.

Also just logged in and cant do the animation cancel? have they fixed it already

[Deleted]

Is there no boost in dungeons anymore? (Where you get boosted to 110 in the dungeon only)
Cus im only 102 and i cant join dungeons on pvp realm...

[Vanyali]

Even with Animation cancelling, my current logging over a couple of hours is showing Felblade > First Blood. Blade Dance just got nerfed too hard to be useful on single target anymore. Death Sweep is garbage in Meta at this point as well because of the 30 Fury cost. Felblade is ~1.8% dmg increase over First Blood so far, which is great news if they truly intend to fix cancelling as we apparently won't be needing it. For VR anyway.

I thought that might be the case, though 1.8% isn't all that much of a difference. Then again, you're casting CS more, which means more refunds sooo.. might end up being more in practice than in theory.

Honestly I hope they change Momentum, I wasn't actually that upset about the whole animation cancelling as it added another aspect to the class and honestly it's the only way i'd be happy using Momentum..

Can you imagine how annoying it will be using FR in a mythic setting? tactics tend to revolve around stacking/ standing in a certain place/ not killing someone else with a debuff etc and having to use FR or VR every 10s and 25s will be a pain in the arse... honestly I can't see it being used for half the fights just due to the fact that you won't be able to use the spells and will have to sit on the 'CD' which will result in a dps loss compared to the other talents.

Also just logged in and cant do the animation cancel? have they fixed it already

No, I just did it. It's just tricky to pull off.

- - - Updated - - -

Is there no boost in dungeons anymore? (Where you get boosted to 110 in the dungeon only)
Cus im only 102 and i cant join dungeons on pvp realm...

No boost, and PvP realms can't PvP (and vice versa).

[Warstar]

While questing Felblade has been more helpful than First Blood I've seen. Would be interesting to see what they math out to be as the best DPS now.

As for Momentum when a boss is large enough you can just Fel Rush or VR through the boss from one side to the next so that's no biggie. But, I have to wonder if on a Tyrant sized boss if using Fel Rush to get back into melee would be an overall gain or running back to the boss would still be better. For Momentum I have to say that Felblade will be the stronger choice simply because of the lack of downtime it creates for Momentum.

[Gracin]

While questing Felblade has been more helpful than First Blood I've seen. Would be interesting to see what they math out to be as the best DPS now.

I've had the reverse opinion for questing with First Blood, I love having it plus Balanced Blades and pulling 4-5 and basically wrecking the initial target so I have a heal on standby while I work over the others.

As for Momentum when a boss is large enough you can just Fel Rush or VR through the boss from one side to the next so that's no biggie. But, I have to wonder if on a Tyrant sized boss if using Fel Rush to get back into melee would be an overall gain or running back to the boss would still be better. For Momentum I have to say that Felblade will be the stronger choice simply because of the lack of downtime it creates for Momentum.

I guess if we're resorting to run back to the target rather than Fel Rush, that raises the value of Mastery lol. Honestly I think the easiest way to fix this issue would be to give us a glyph similar to the monk glyph.

Glyph of Flying Serpent Kick: Your Flying Serpent Kick automatically ends when you fly into an enemy, triggering the area of effect damage and snare.

Something similar for Fel Rush would not only allow use to keep the "mobility" of the spec, but also make the need for animation cancel unnecessary. I don't see that option as too game-breaking, and as a glyph it gives the option to use it or not.

[Warstar]

I've had the reverse opinion for questing with First Blood, I love having it plus Balanced Blades and pulling 4-5 and basically wrecking the initial target so I have a heal on standby while I work over the others.

Or just pull 6-7 mobs > CN > FotI > EB > Collect cookies.

Fel Eruption is actually pretty nice for getting that first mob down. Hits pretty damn hard. When mobs aren't really close enough to group together to AoE Felblade > Fel Eruption knocks em down to about 50% in those 2 abilities and even lower if they crit.

Also not sure when Fel Eruption was changed but it doesn't have that old graphic where it looked like the mob got hit by a chunk of dirt.

http://imgur.com/cUEshGF

Has that base damage across the board that doesn't scale with mob size so it looks like that on a tiny mob and still is tiny vs a giant mob.

Better view:

http://imgur.com/EVChP5Q

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Or just pull 6-7 mobs > CN > FotI > EB > Collect cookies.

Fel Eruption is actually pretty nice for getting that first mob down. Hits pretty damn hard. When mobs aren't really close enough to group together to AoE Felblade > Fel Eruption knocks em down to about 50% in those 2 abilities and even lower if they crit.

Also not sure when Fel Eruption was changed but it doesn't have that old graphic where it looked like the mob got hit by a chunk of dirt.

http://imgur.com/cUEshGF

Has that base damage across the board that doesn't scale with mob size so it looks like that on a tiny mob and still is tiny vs a giant mob.

Better view:

http://imgur.com/EVChP5Q

I rather like the new graphic for it, but LOL at the size difference per different sixed mobs. That's gonna be fun as shit to use xD

[nox597]

As a member of the No-Beta club, I'm a little curious about the timing for VR/Felblade, and how it meshes with Demonic... The 4 second duration on Momentum seems like it would be somewhat wasted if you have to spend a GCD on Felblade, then use Eyebeam... Do you use VR/Felblade just as Eyebeam finishes and Demonic Meta begins, then Annihilate spam until it ends?

[Vanyali]

As a member of the No-Beta club, I'm a little curious about the timing for VR/Felblade, and how it meshes with Demonic... The 4 second duration on Momentum seems like it would be somewhat wasted if you have to spend a GCD on Felblade, then use Eyebeam... Do you use VR/Felblade just as Eyebeam finishes and Demonic Meta begins, then Annihilate spam until it ends?

use VR before Eyebeam so it's regening fury while you channel, then felblade in and annhilation spam

[nox597]

use VR before Eyebeam so it's regening fury while you channel, then felblade in and annhilation spam

Wouldn't the 4 second window of Momentum be mostly over by the time you started with the Annihilation spam, thanks to Eye Beam channel and Felblade GCD? Or do you Fel Rush at some point in there too?