[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Rumred]

I might of missed it somewhere but of our first tier talent choice if you are running Momentum/Demo with felblade what should you take? I would assume Fel Mastery would of lost its value but i could be wrong.

[Deleted]

might be lag, but i've had little luck doing that. you can't get the charge until you touch down unless you hit the exact millisecond the way you do for canceling right now.

I've reported it as a bug though, because Felblade still works some of the time when you're mid-air while at other times it still does the damage part but forget the "charge" part.

[Donovan4893]

I really hope they add target dummies to our class hall because of all the ones I checked we are the only ones with no target dummies, they could turn those captured demons on the below level into dummies like the lock class hall has.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Wouldn't that make Felblade even better in that situation for Chaos Cleave?

Not necessarily? You can still take Chaos Cleave, and weave those in between BD uses. The cost of BD with First Blood is pretty negligible, and BD/FB will hit more than 2 targets regardless, whereas Chaos Cleave is 2 targets and that's pretty much it.

I reckon for multi target encounters you'll want to take both Chaos Cleave and FB.

[ChakanDH]

I really hope they add target dummies to our class hall because of all the ones I checked we are the only ones with no target dummies, they could turn those captured demons on the below level into dummies like the lock class hall has.

Agreed, I generally use the ones at the shrine, but being that they are against a wall it makes it hard to properly test the felrush side of momentum. Would love one like the Dk's have in Acherus, dead centre of an arena.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Also, people seem to be forgetting about Balanced Blades in all this. 10% increase to BD per target. IDK about you ladies, but I'm pretty confident First Blood can be considered the multi-target talent for its tier.

[Vanyali]

I've reported it as a bug though, because Felblade still works some of the time when you're mid-air while at other times it still does the damage part but forget the "charge" part.

Yeah, that's why i'm not certain if it's lag or something with the abilities themselves.

[Donovan4893]

Agreed, I generally use the ones at the shrine, but being that they are against a wall it makes it hard to properly test the felrush side of momentum. Would love one like the Dk's have in Acherus, dead centre of an arena.

Yeah the could add a training area down on Mardum and allow us to go down there instead of limiting us to the tiny fel hammer. (monks get to go over the ENTIRE turtle island.)

[Warstar]

Yeah, that's why i'm not certain if it's lag or something with the abilities themselves.

The lag has been totally brutal man. Between phasing issues and killer lag beta has been miserable. I'm just glad I got to experience the game during alpha before beta to know the glory that the class should be.

Btw I wonder if they're planning on fixing Fel Rush animation canceling as well as VR or if they've just been stuck on VR canceling and haven't even touched Fel Rush yet.

[Vanyali]

The lag has been totally brutal man. Between phasing issues and killer lag beta has been miserable. I'm just glad I got to experience the game during alpha before beta to know the glory that the class should be.

Btw I wonder if they're planning on fixing Fel Rush animation canceling as well as VR or if they've just been stuck on VR canceling and haven't even touched Fel Rush yet.

IDK, I thought it was fun to suddenly have all of suramar to myself and the few survivors of the phapocolpyse...

I don't have high hopes for Fel Rush, given Roll

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

IDK, I thought it was fun to suddenly have all of suramar to myself and the few survivors of the phapocolpyse...

I don't have high hopes for Fel Rush, given Roll

Isn't there a slightly distinctive difference between how Fel Rush works and how Roll/Chi Torpedo currently works? IIRC from my Monk experience, you reduced the distance traveled by jumping up then hitting roll, and it'd move you something like half the distance. As in, if you use Roll in midair, you just roll in midair and don't go anywhere until you hit the ground.

Fel Rush is usable in midair, so just jumping the one time wouldn't cancel (or reduce the distance traveled) it out, you gotta get some shenanigans going on to pull it off still, don't you?

[videnfost]

I might of missed it somewhere but of our first tier talent choice if you are running Momentum/Demo with felblade what should you take? I would assume Fel Mastery would of lost its value but i could be wrong.

Why would Fel Mastery lose its value? You're still using FR very often due to Momentum. You don't use less Fel Rushes when you have Felblade, you just get more Momentum uptime because you use it while on the boss, rather than trying to get back to the boss.

As for first row talents, after hours of testing with a Prepared Momentum build:

1. Fel Mastery
2. Blind Fury (-6.5%)
3. Demonic Appetite (-12%)

Bear in mind that this is on the PvP server with full Artifact points and level 110 which also provides you with some really bad stats like 1,831 Crit Rating, so the character is at 21.23% crit which is considerably lower than you would have with a reasonable endgame gear level. As a result, Fel Mastery testing was favored a bit due to the lack of consistent CS/Anni refunds as well as the fact that the 100% crit chance is more valuable when your character has lower crit levels.

I believe Blind Fury would come closer to Fel Mastery with more normal Crit levels. You'll be overflowing with Fury at higher crit levels while using Prepared and Felblade. That being said, one major disadvantage of Blind Fury is that the cast is so long. With a 3 second Eye Beam channel you're unable to keep Momentum up for the full cast unless you're taking a full VR and staying put where you land, which creates some really tricky and unreliable gameplay, especially if VR is sending you outside of Eye Beam's cast range. And if you try to combat this by using Felblade after EB rather than VR, you'll be running into the issue of Felblade and VR having staggered CDs, unless you're lucky with Demon's Bite procs.

Fel Mastery is so nice because over the course of about half an hour I had cast Fel Rush 169 times for 4225 Fury, and the 100% crit chance brought the damage of Fel Rush up so high that it ended up doing more than Eye Beam, at 8.86% of my total damage done. It was actually my 3rd most damaging ability, behind CS and Annihilation.

I think Blind Fury's true value is how it changes your AoE damage. Going from 9 to 14 ticks and adding the subsequent Anguish stacks in a burst AoE setting is tremendous. Fel Mastery does have the 100% crit chance on Fel Rush which is nice for AoE, but the other half, 25 Fury gain, is a bit less valuable in an AoE situation, as that extra Fury will most likely be dumped in a small cleaved Chaos Strike.

Ultimately, I think with reasonable Crit levels on an endgame Momentum build, you'll be picking Blind Fury for AoE/cleave and using Fel Mastery for single target. It's still early in beta though, and everything is certainly subject to change. However, until they add Demonic Appetite back on to Feast on the Souls, I think it's completely out the window and its only value is in the extra healing it provides.

[Dimzum]

Tried out Momentum with Fel Mastery, Prepared and Felblade. Holy shit. Now I see just how hectic and fun it can be. Definitely takes some getting use to and planning accordingly. I would pretty much wait for Felblade to come off CD, then either FR or VR, whichever was off CD. Just about everytime with VR I could FB back before even hitting the ground. The uptime was great.

Now just waiting to get to 110 and try out Demonic with all this.

[wordup]

snip

Whilst it's great that you're getting stuck in and trying stuff out, SimC is already working and there are sheets modelling this, alongside the months of Alpha testing to accompany it. They all indicate that Blind Fury and DA are extremely close in value for ST right now, and Fel Mastery is simply the best. Crit levels to actually push either of those two close/above Fel Mastery lie in the regions of around 62%~ (which is around 17000 rating) which is far, far down the line. Dummy testing sadly isn't as valuable as modelling for this kind of thing because the talents exist in their own microcosm where personal error can and will skew results very easily.

This goes doubly for your explanation of the value of Felblade vs. First Blood with Momentum. Why you find Felblade useful is contextual to your gameplay, those can all potentially be rectified by more pro-active play and positional awareness, Felblade isn't necessarily a requirement to get back into position for AoE in a vast majority of raiding situations that have been seen in Legion so far even after a Fel Rush, and given that animation cancelling is still in full effect for FR it's actually irrelevant until that changes. Ultimately it seems that you are significantly overvaluing the short charge Felblade is providing as an unquantifiable but directly linked benefit to the 20% Momentum damage buff, when in reality it isn't as significant. Bear in mind that in AoE that 20% damage buff is already losing a full global as it stands when using Felblade to actually activate it to get back in, on a spell that has little AoE impact for that window (assuming you actually pool Fury correctly before AoE begins which is easy to do) and deals relatively average damage.

Bloodlet on the other hand is extremely poor and not worth taking simply because it has no effect on Fury and your two primary generators, and actively impedes the damage of Meta, both of which are very detrimental.

[Qlix]

I want you guys to know I love you. A lot. Counting down the days till I can play this -.-

[videnfost]

SimC is already working and there are sheets modelling this, alongside the months of Alpha testing to accompany it.

They've just recently rebalanced almost every skill in the DH toolkit a week ago or so. I've been in the Alpha for months as well, and nothing from that time period is relevant anymore.

Also, SimC is great for Mages, but has a less-than-stellar track record when it comes to new classes. Take a look over the months following Monk's release, if you need an example of why SimC for DH will be about as useful as a coin flip.

They all indicate that Blind Fury and DA are extremely close in value for ST right now, and Fel Mastery is simply the best.

You're right. That's why I said "I believe Blind Fury would come closer to Fel Mastery with more normal Crit levels." At no point did I say it would overtake it. As for Blind Fury and DA being extremely close in value, it's clearly an error in modelling, as it's extremely obvious they aren't, even from a cursory glance.

Felblade isn't necessarily a requirement to get back into position for AoE in a vast majority of raiding situations that have been seen in Legion so far even after a Fel Rush

And this is how I know you didn't understand the ideas I was talking about. I don't use FR without an animation cancel. Nor should anyone use Felblade after using a Fel Rush. You severely misunderstood the entire core of my post.

Why you find Felblade useful is contextual to your gameplay, those can all potentially be rectified by more pro-active play and positional awareness

No, it isn't. When I talk about Felblade, I'm referring to a future situation in which VR can no longer be cancelled, as Blizzard has made it very clear that their intent is to remove VR cancelling and Celestalon has indicated this is imminent via twitter. If you can't cancel VR, you have a number of options. Firstly, you can Fel Rush back. You lose Momentum uptime at this point. Secondly, you could run back on foot. You lose lots of uptime on targets at this point. Thirdly, you can spin your camera 180 and attempt to VR to the other side of a boss. This is basically the only option that's better than Felblade, yet it requires a very large boss hitbox, arguably one that is larger than the average which therefore makes it very unreliable, and certainly entirely unusable on any monster with a standard hitbox which is a vast majority of mobs in AoE situations.

If we're assuming Velhari/Mannoroth hitboxes, or mechanics similar to Archimonde Mythic's lasers, Felblade is clearly the only real option available while using Momentum. And, if you were to get outside your SimC modelling world for a moment and actually use the abilities in-game, you might notice the nerf to Blade Dance was so severe that Death Sweep with or without First Blood is actually a dps loss in Meta at the moment.

I get that you don't like your ideas being challenged by anyone else, but you should really take the time to actually understand someone else's post before responding from a point of authority. You certainly shouldn't be vaguely quoting loose (and error-filled) models from SimC on a class that's barely left Alpha, nor willfully ignoring recent changes in a game that's in constant flux due to alpha/beta status. Honestly, I expected a little more from you because I enjoyed some of your videos.

[nox597]

I want you guys to know I love you. A lot. Counting down the days till I can play this -.-

I will agree with this sentiment... I greatly appreciate you guys sharing your testing, and answering questions for us!

I have 11 Hexweave bags, all the ore required for maxed engineering, and all the herbs for maxed alchemy, all waiting for DH to go Live.

On another note, I know people primarily focus on PvE here, but I just saw a note on the Battle.Net Beta forum talking about how Eyebeam can be interrupted by pummel, etc. ... Is that likely to cause issues for PvE at all? Does interrupting Eyebeam prevent Demonic from going off, or just lock us out of Annihilate spam for a few seconds?

[Vanyali]

I will agree with this sentiment... I greatly appreciate you guys sharing your testing, and answering questions for us!

I have 11 Hexweave bags, all the ore required for maxed engineering, and all the herbs for maxed alchemy, all waiting for DH to go Live.

On another note, I know people primarily focus on PvE here, but I just saw a note on the Battle.Net Beta forum talking about how Eyebeam can be interrupted by pummel, etc. ... Is that likely to cause issues for PvE at all? Does interrupting Eyebeam prevent Demonic from going off, or just lock us out of Annihilate spam for a few seconds?

it doesn't prevent anything but eyebeam from being used, which, considering it's CD, is not different than a self-interrupt. But annoying and stupid all the same.

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I get that you don't like your ideas being challenged by anyone else, but you should really take the time to actually understand someone else's post before responding from a point of authority. You certainly shouldn't be vaguely quoting loose (and error-filled) models from SimC on a class that's barely left Alpha is just amateur, nor willfully ignoring recent changes in a game that's in constant flux due to alpha/beta status.

This shit is really not necessary, nor is deciding that you're an authority because you don't use SimC and use hands-on, considering Wordup's been doing *both* since the very start.

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Isn't there a slightly distinctive difference between how Fel Rush works and how Roll/Chi Torpedo currently works? IIRC from my Monk experience, you reduced the distance traveled by jumping up then hitting roll, and it'd move you something like half the distance. As in, if you use Roll in midair, you just roll in midair and don't go anywhere until you hit the ground.

Fel Rush is usable in midair, so just jumping the one time wouldn't cancel (or reduce the distance traveled) it out, you gotta get some shenanigans going on to pull it off still, don't you?

A little? Fel rush is just walk backwards and jump. Same thing in principle

[videnfost]

This shit is really not necessary, nor is deciding that you're an authority because you don't use SimC and use hands-on, considering Wordup's been doing *both* since the very start.

I'm not an authority, nor do I want to be or claim to be. Wordup's time spent working on this class is irrelevant if he's wrong. He doesn't get brownie points for effort. And let's be honest here. Wordup is not maining a DH. He's maining an Enhancement and has been pretty clear about that. DH is not his main focus.

I get it though. Change isn't fun. I'll let you guys continue the SimC fantasies. It worked pretty well for Windwalker.

[Raiju]

Also, SimC is great for Mages, but has a less-than-stellar track record when it comes to new classes. Take a look over the months following Monk's release, if you need an example of why SimC for DH will be about as useful as a coin flip.

This depends entirely on the people behind the DH sim, and monks were a theorycrafting mess irrespective of simcraft for the first 1.5 years.