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  1. #41
    This is definitely one of their dumbest ideas. Why not just remove talents at this point?

  2. #42
    Legendary! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rezhial View Post
    This is definitely one of their dumbest ideas. Why not just remove talents at this point?
    WTF ? They are pretty much doing the absolute opposite of removing talents.

    They force playeers to make a choice. It's the retarded "hey AOE fight, lets switch full aoe talent" that is killing talents.

    What's the point of having single target VS aoe talents when you can swap them at will when needed ? That is the point when you can remove talents.
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  3. #43
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    in raids the incription item will go down before every boss along with feast probaly so i don't see it as a big deal.

    can't really comprehend the point tho either.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    WTF ? They are pretty much doing the absolute opposite of removing talents.

    They force playeers to make a choice. It's the retarded "hey AOE fight, lets switch full aoe talent" that is killing talents.

    What's the point of having single target VS aoe talents when you can swap them at will when needed ? That is the point when you can remove talents.

    The way I've viewed talents (since they switched to the current spec system back in late Cata), is that it's just a system to gate you from having "all the things" at once, and being too powerful across all situations. I don't think that talent choices really factor too much into my character "identity"; it's more about adaptability or play-style preference. I think some people are overthinking it and putting too much weight on talent "choice". Spec choice is much more defining to character identity than talent setup, yet it seems that spec-swapping would be less restrictive than talent swapping...

    Personally, I like the fact that I can switch talents freely to change things up or adapt to the situation. They have a point however, that switching them shouldn't be so willy-nilly. It is a little ridiculous that you can switch to a movement speed passive just to run across a room, then switch back before you pull a mob. But really... that's a pretty minor issue.

    I think they've just overreacted to this issue (and many players are overreacting to their overreaction...). It's actually a little comical that they went so far as to create a new item tied to a profession that would have its own economy, just to restrict impulsive talent swapping. Plus, it's odd that swapping specs would be less restrictive than switching a talent.

    I don't really like that they're taking the approach of making talent swaps much more expensive and aimed at group play. My character's ability to adapt should be in my hands, not scribes and whatever the economy is. Impulsive talent swapping could have been easily restrained by giving a long cast time to activating a new talent setup, just like swapping specs.

  5. #45
    Stood in the Fire Leyl's Avatar
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    I'll chime in here, as a lock player mainly, warrior as my favorite alt by far: Yeah, this sucks for everyone. Warlocks in Legion also have to pick between AOE or ST talents on fights a lot. Not being able to swap them between bosses to maximize speed is going to be a pain in the ass. #feelsbadman
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  6. #46
    I don't mind it. Theres Inns everywhere, you can't go 2 minutes without encountering an Inn (rested zone).

    Actually, I like the change. One of the reasons I dislike the MoP talent system is purely because as someone who cares somewhat about maximizing my character, I have to change my talents for pretty much every boss in every dungeon and raid. I also have to do all of my glyphs too. Its an annoying hassle, its in arenas too. Zone in, check comp, quickly swap talents to cookie cutter ones that work against that comp, hit finish.

    I preferred just getting my spec while in town, if i'm out doing questing or whatever i'll pick sustain talents, on kill effects, etc. Thats fun to me, thats a choice. I picked a spec for leveling. Instead in WoD I mount up my travellers tundra mammoth, buy a 5 stacks of 200 tomes, and go through them in 2 weeks just from doing dungeons and raids.

    Let me pick my spec, and just play the game, not the UI.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Leyl View Post
    I'll chime in here, as a lock player mainly, warrior as my favorite alt by far: Yeah, this sucks for everyone. Warlocks in Legion also have to pick between AOE or ST talents on fights a lot. Not being able to swap them between bosses to maximize speed is going to be a pain in the ass. #feelsbadman
    Already confirmed that you can, in the very same post where this is announced. Scribes can make basically a 'feast' that lets you respec while standing near it. It will be placed before bosses like current feasts are

  7. #47
    Stood in the Fire Leyl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Etrayu View Post
    I don't mind it. Theres Inns everywhere, you can't go 2 minutes without encountering an Inn (rested zone).

    Actually, I like the change. One of the reasons I dislike the MoP talent system is purely because as someone who cares somewhat about maximizing my character, I have to change my talents for pretty much every boss in every dungeon and raid. I also have to do all of my glyphs too. Its an annoying hassle, its in arenas too. Zone in, check comp, quickly swap talents to cookie cutter ones that work against that comp, hit finish.

    I preferred just getting my spec while in town, if i'm out doing questing or whatever i'll pick sustain talents, on kill effects, etc. Thats fun to me, thats a choice. I picked a spec for leveling. Instead in WoD I mount up my travellers tundra mammoth, buy a 5 stacks of 200 tomes, and go through them in 2 weeks just from doing dungeons and raids.

    Let me pick my spec, and just play the game, not the UI.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Already confirmed that you can, in the very same post where this is announced. Scribes can make basically a 'feast' that lets you respec while standing near it. It will be placed before bosses like current feasts are
    I get that, but why should we have to even do this? The smarter thing to do is just put a 20 second cooldown on a talent row once you swap it out to avoid the "passive" swapping problem. This is all that was needed. My warrior is a scribe, and a herbalist, and now I gotta choose "Do I wanna make money, or fuck up my mythic dungeon timed runs" etc. Boss fights are one thing, but when you're on a timer this is not a good thing. Its also another thing to stock in the gbank which nobody looks forward to. We have flasks, food, potions, potentially cauldrons coming back, potentially new potions that are oddly unique, gems, enchants, and NOWWWW more stuff to put in the guild bank. It just is not necessary.

    A cooldown would have fixed this fine. This is someone getting on a podium and going "BACK IN MY DAY THINGS WERE HARDER TO PICK" and crying that people have it easier. Guess what? Nobody cares! We have cars now, NOT HORSES, and this is a "WELL LETS ATTACH SOME HORSES TO CARS" moment for development. It makes little sense when they had a simple design to the UI that made sense. I don't give a damn about leveling specs, nor screwing around farming wolves. I am talking about timed runs, guild management, and on raids where time MATTERS.
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Rezhial View Post
    This is definitely one of their dumbest ideas. Why not just remove talents at this point?
    I actually agree here. I mean, they've screwed it up so much it's much more of a hassle than a function at this point. And they're too chicken to actually change it back into a function, so there's no point in it anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    WTF ? They are pretty much doing the absolute opposite of removing talents.

    They force playeers to make a choice. It's the retarded "hey AOE fight, lets switch full aoe talent" that is killing talents.

    What's the point of having single target VS aoe talents when you can swap them at will when needed ? That is the point when you can remove talents.
    You've missed the part where they will introduce a scribe item which will let you bypass it and still change it wherever you want.

    That's where the big problem lies. Blizzard has realized that talents aren't meaningful choices anymore, just more UI management, and they want to change it back to beaing meaningful choices. So far so good. But they're too scared of all idiot raiders who have taken the talent changes for granted and instead of realizing that Blizz is trying to change it back to being a thing, they will whine and bitch that something is taken away from them.

    If Blizz had made it so that hey, you can only switch in safe zones and only with a 4 hour CD, then that would've returned talents to being useful again. But they're not, they're doing so you can only switch in safe zones, but you can bypass it, so there's essentially no change at all.

  9. #49
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Etrayu View Post
    Let me pick my spec, and just play the game, not the UI.

    vs

    Already confirmed that you can, in the very same post where this is announced. Scribes can make basically a 'feast' that lets you respec while standing near it. It will be placed before bosses like current feasts are
    For you basically nothing changed.
    You still have to play the ui but instead of it taking some seconds and a tome you have to convince someone to drop the respec-thing (or you have to carry those thingies with you)


    I like to try different things between pulls on progress sometimes.
    This system seems like something that will get on my nerves pretty quick.
    Just think of asking for a jeeves in a pug when your weapon is red and there is none.


    After all it depends what those respec-feasts will cost and if it's bop or not.

    If it's bop this will be super annoying since you would have to have a specific profession in a raid
    If it's cheap it's just another button you have to press to respec ->useless

    ps:
    Another thing to consider when talking about this is that some classes almost never respec in raid atm (blood dk or mm hunter for example) while others have to do it quite frequently. Don't know if all classes will have more meaningful choices with legion
    Last edited by mmoc2e5b8dbff7; 2016-05-18 at 04:18 PM.

  10. #50
    This is the game system equivalent to what happened to Charge in WoD.

    They fucked up Arms in WoD so badly that the optimal way to play was with Heroic Charge in the rotation. Rather than fix the actual broken-shit rotation, they broke Charge so that we wouldn't use it multiple times against a single target - and not even just for Arms, but for the entire fucking class.

    Rather than actually fix their Talent system so that it offers meaningful choices that encourages players to WANT to be in one talent setup for most of their playtime, they are breaking the system to force us into stupid shit. Doing that on top of designing classes so that talents with similar functions are spread across the trees, so that there are clear AoE vs Single-target choices on one row, is just asinine. It's bad design on top of bad design. It really feels like the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing at Blizz - or they are just monumentally fucking horrible at their jobs. If we had a dedicated AoE tier, dedicated single-target tier, etc., rather than spreading shit out, then this would not be nearly as terrible a decision, but we don't.

    I don't think this one poor decision is enough to make anyone quit the game. But when you're already dealing with a half dozen or so OTHER shit-tier decisions and design choices, it becomes easier for the next one to be the last straw. This may be that for some people - or just get folks closer to the next one being what pushes them over the edge.

  11. #51
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    This just shows that the new talent system was garbage because there was always an optimal spec and it was never about playstyle people like to spout. Hope you like spending a trillion gold to respec now.

  12. #52
    They removed the mats required to switch talents because it didn't make sense to them to keep them. At the same time added a gold price to xhanging specs. Quickly realized they didn't like that but still wanted on of the 2 to be limited and have a cost. So instead of adding back the tomes they add this nonsense. The cost of raiding just spiked for a few classes due to this.
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  13. #53
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    I haven't been following this aspect of development...

    Where has it been indicated that you will need to respec on a per-boss basis? Or are we talking about the best of the best of the best (sir, with honors) mythic people?
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  14. #54
    Stood in the Fire Leyl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    I haven't been following this aspect of development...

    Where has it been indicated that you will need to respec on a per-boss basis? Or are we talking about the best of the best of the best (sir, with honors) mythic people?
    Just do a Mythic dungeon, or whatever they call Challenge Modes in Legion; anyone doing these is done if they have to swap talents a lot on certain dungeons. And yes, you should be changing your spec to suit each boss. If you are not, then whatever, I don't even know why you wanna play the game then. Normal, Heroic, and Mythic should require talent changes per boss sometimes, and they have stated this. You can do it before boss pulls, but it is going to be another raid item to manage in a guild bank, or to bring to a raid.
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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    I haven't been following this aspect of development...

    Where has it been indicated that you will need to respec on a per-boss basis? Or are we talking about the best of the best of the best (sir, with honors) mythic people?
    Because that's how the game has worked for two expansions? Well, WoD at least - MoP didn't feel so bad.

    Boss mechanics typically break down, at a very basic level, into one of a few DPS designs:

    • AoE
    • Single-target
    • Cleave

    Sure, most fights have a bit of two or sometimes all three, but ultimately the mechanics lean one way or the other. The rare Patchwerk type fight of course leans on pure single-target DPS. Fights with a lot of adds (which feel like 90% of boss fights in modern raids) tend to lean toward favoring overall AoE or Cleave mechanics, depending on the details of the fight itself. Tanks and healers might not need to swap as often, but for DPS, there really is a need to switch focus from one boss to another, at all levels of play. Even in the friends and family guilds, most players want to do their best - and most of them know that means using Talent X on an AoE-heavy fight.

    For warriors, there are clear AoE and single-target options spread out across tiers. So it's not just a matter of "Pick your preferred style of AoE on this tier" (which it really should be) but instead it's "Pick the AoE talents across these two-three tiers."

    Unless players really don't give a shit, they'll want to pick the optimal talents for each boss. Even in a casual guild raid, most people there want to do well and down the boss. Yes, even casuals want to play well.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beardyface View Post
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...6264?page=4#72

    If this change goes live I quit this game. Flat out. I've never seen developers so out of touch with their own game. It's mind boggling.

    From Watcher:



    They design bosses in raids and dungeons that require us to change our talents to perform optimally, then take that away from us.

    Fuck these guys.
    Let me hold the door for you on your way out.

  17. #57

  18. #58
    so me going tank on weekly kazzak to quickly pull boss, cause who cares if all is here, is no good

    crappy change.
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  19. #59
    i think in the history of wow, if all the people that said they would quit over X change, actually quit, there would be about 7 people left playing the game.

  20. #60
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murlocbait View Post
    Because that's how the game has worked for two expansions? Well, WoD at least - MoP didn't feel so bad.
    I'm... a bit confused. I (and my entire guild) have never needed to do this, and we've progress through pretty much all the heroic raid content. Nor do I know any guilds that were better than us having to do this.

    Again, is this some niche/mythic thing? I feel like people are overreacting.
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