Why are people against wendys self service kiosk ?

[Mad_Murdock]

That is kinda what I meant with "I am too lazy". Using a self-checkout is quite a bit more work for me as a customer, personally - why do it when I can just go up to a normal checkout? At least in our stores, the time I could save would be minimal (if any at all).

Guess I'm anti-social. I hate going to a store and there isn't a self check out available or it's closed. Most places I go to closed the "Express lanes 10 items or less" and so it's either self check out or the full line. Unless I have a cart full of something, I prefer self checkout.

I'd love all fast food places to have an App like Starbucks, Pick my location, Place my order, Pay all from my Phone. Just show up and pick up. And the odds that my order will be correct goes up.

[Kathandira]

These things wouldn't be a problem if we actually got rid of the idea that people need work in order to survive. Technology is rapidly pushing us past that, but we're being cruel to others and holding tech back solely to maintain capitalism for...some reason.

I have to agree with you. I feel the same way.

[Stormdash]

So who else should solve that problem? Businesses are the main source of income for people and if they don't pay enough just get another job, is it? Just work 16 hours, I thought civilisation was past that shit. Also: there isn't even enough work to do for everyone having an 8h job and with more automation even less.

Past what shit? Adulthood? Individual responsibility? Or do you means, past that shit like "math" (because you clearly think that any and every business should be able to pay enough wage for any particular job that someone could work that one and only job for 30-40 hours a week and afford whatever lifestyle they prefer).

Who is primarily responsible for your health, safety, welfare, and happiness in the course of your life?
A) You
B) Everybody, anybody else.

Again, businesses do not exist to give people jobs, that is incidental to their purpose, which is to provide a livelihood for their owner and/or investors.

Another way but I guess you'll like it even less: unconditional basic income. Let the government solve the problem and give everyone the equivalent of $15/h full time job pay just for being alive. Businesses then could pay whatever small amount they want and find people for to stock boxes and flip burgers.

"... eventually you run out of other people's money". True when it was said, true today, true forever.

[melodramocracy]

"... eventually you run out of other people's money". True when it was said, true today, true forever.

Depends on how you look at it I suppose. Either way though, Twdft is correct. You're eventually going to see steps towards basic income (or at the very least, much more bolstered jobless security), or you're going to see businesses become legally obligated to retain a certain percentage of employees no matter how automated they are.

[AlphaOut]

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Your opinion is so far removed from reality it makes me sad that there are powerful people in the world in agreement with you, actively working against any attempt to increase wages/benefits in general. For some unfathomable reason you think that the value of someone's time is worth nothing. That they have to scrape by and live paycheck to paycheck because it's supposed to be that way. That when someone in a job like that gets sick or injured, they should just lose everything and be unable to pay for any of it because they work a job that in your opinion, requires no 'skill' and that someone could do 'in their sleep.' No, flipping burgers is not an unskilled job. Have you ever done it? Have you ever done it for 8 hours a day? I'm sorry, but people like you have no concept of reality.

Working a grill, cash register, mop bucket, or any other 'unskilled' job takes a specific type of skill that quite frankly, people like you don't possess. You can't possess it because you have the opinion you have of the people who do possess it. What skill am I talking about? Well, to be perfectly fucking frank, it's the skill to take a completely shit task that sucks to do for 5 minutes, endure that shit task with competency and accuracy for up to 8 hours a day, and then turn around and please people like you who shit on them all day long.

If you had ask someone like that what they dislike most about their life, it would be that they have to deal with unappreciative assholes who treat them like garbage because of their position in life. I'm sorry, but you don't deserve to have an opinion on this matter, you can't see past your own goddamn self entitlement.

That's right. Anyone who sits here and defends making more money over anyone else for any reason is every bit as entitled as anyone else. You get paid what you get paid because someone thought you deserved to get paid that much. And you act like you deserve it because you have a different skill than a guy who flips burgers. Let me ask you something. How much skill does it take to be a garbage man? You drive a big truck and you dump cans full of shit people don't want into it. If one garbage man is making $9 an hour, while another garbage man is making $26 an hour, explain to me why either one should be making what they are making, considering the fucking obvious lack of 'skill' required.

Please explain it to me without using the word 'entitled,' if you can.

Also: there are people out there who literally get paid to sleep. People participating in sleep studies are actually working in their sleep. Everyone else is just sleeping or working, not both. Stop with the nonsense hyperbole, you already don't have an argument. Hyperbole doesn't help.



No. It's poverty level pay because a complex series of events have unfolded in history, allowing for these hugely profitable companies to emerge and pay their workers very little with very little oversight by the government. The idea that a company could hire you, pay you less than what you need to support yourself (much less a family), for time you spend doing something for them (not yourself), and then this is all supposed to be normal, is fucking indefensible at best.

Other countries look at how we treat our employees and they fucking cringe.

McDonald's doesn't pay you minimum wage because that's what your labor is worth, they pay you minimum wage because that's what the law allows them to do. The law allows them to pay you less for your time and effort. The law allows for them to give you far fewer hours than you need to sustain an income. The law allows for them to deny you benefits based on the number of hours you are given to work per week on a 6 week average. Are you starting to understand the problem here? It's not that workers want higher wages. It's that companies are allowed to treat their employees poorly, and you're making excuses for them to keep doing it.

That's fucking despicable.

Do you know why garbage men can make a liveable wage for unskilled labor? Because they have the protection of the unions. Something most retail and fast food companies refuse to let employees have. They don't get paid $26 an hour because they have some unique skill that most other people don't have. Same goes with people in YOUR profession. They don't have some unique skill that most other people don't have. What they DO have is a position in a company who has decided their employees are more valuable than the value companies such as Walmart place on their employees. Unless you actively use the things your degree says you learned on a daily basis in your job, you do not possess anything unique that makes you more valuable than the next guy. You just happen to be employed by a company who isn't shafting you for whatever profit margin they are trying to gain by doing so.

That's right. Your wage is happenstance. So don't be a fuckwit and try to argue that someone who flips a burger is worth less than whatever it is you do. Because frankly, teachers, doctors, and scientists are far more valuable (based on the amount of skill and knowledge their jobs actually require) than anyone and they are dealing with the same problems for the same reasons. If you know someone who is any of those three things IRL, ask them how much the average person in their office makes. You'll be surprised.

And yes, I realize I'll probably get a couple points for this, but this stuff needs to be read.



As someone with a lot of experience working in retail/food service I can try to parse this out a little bit for you. The idea behind self checkout is not to save money, but to better accommodate the kind of clientele who come in just for a couple items. I don't know about you, if I go into a store, I avoid any line with more than 3 people. I never really go shopping and fill up a cart and then force someone to spend 15 minutes scanning all my stuff, and most of the time I'm getting less than 10 things. Or what I'm getting can fit in a basket with a carry handle and I don't need a cart. So from my standpoint, I'd rather not wait behind someone with a mountain of shit in a cart. I value the option of being able to check myself out and spent less time waiting around for an underpaid part-timer to do the thing and get me out of there.

On the flip side, companies like Walmart under staff their stores to begin with (especially the registers) and create the need for things like self check out so that the two registers open don't have lines 15 people deep all the time (they do anyway). But I worked for Fred Meyer when they installed theirs (before Walmart) and they are manned by someone who spends as much time helping people checkout as they would just doing it for them. I really don't see the displacement except in circumstances where companies are already doing things poorly. As I said before, automation will always require some form of human aid.

So there will always be a job for someone (maybe just not for Everyone).

There is a very valid argument in what I said. Some people just fail to see that you have to put in effort to make it anywhere. Most people, including myself, had work in the fast food or retail industry. My first job was at KFC at 15 years old. It taught me, and many others the value of your time and the dollar. Moving onto college I worked at Carl's Jr to support myself. I never once thought it'd be a good long term solution to a healthy financial life. It was gas money, beer, etc. These jobs are good to have at minimum wage because it teaches you the value of the dollar. They are not, nor should be considered a career. They don't have a retirement plan, they don't have insurance benefits, most don't have paid vacation. You go into this industry knowing this, so why make the choice to stick around for years? It's the lack of drive to improve your personal lifestyle, so these lifers at fast food seek a way to make more money in their current job, knowing what they were applying to from day 1.

People can make tons of excuses of why the are there, but in the end it's their own fault they stuck around. I strongly believe in learning the value of the dollar from these jobs. For many people, including myself, it's a pivotal point where we learn the difference between a job and a career. I realized I couldn't pay for college as well, and didn't want debt. My scholarship and grants only go so far. So i joined the Army, did a couple tours, was discharged then finished school to obtain my masters. The reason I say this isn't to brag, its to show you nobody is stuck. Its because I came from nothing. Literally nothing. With that said, I take a firm stance against people that feel they deserve more for doing nothing additional to deserve it.

You just proved that you don't need an education to get a decent paying job. Apply for a union job. What you did say is that even though someone has a low paying job that they absolutely hate, they should be paid more, instead of seeking other avenues? If people with that mentality put in as much effort into finding a decent job or career as they do in trying to convince the general public they're deserving of more pay, there wouldn't be much of an issue would there?

Again, these jobs are great for kids in high school and college. Ive never once considered them a career, and i assure you im not alone in that opinion. Its not a matter of people who make a ton of money and look down on these people. It's a matter of people who make a lot of money know what it took to get there. I guarantee you it was more than a 16 year old putting in an application.

[Deleted]

There is a very valid argument in what I said. Some people just fail to see that you have to put in effort to make it anywhere. Most people, including myself, had work in the fast food or retail industry. My first job was at KFC at 15 years old. It taught me, and many others the value of your time and the dollar. Moving onto college I worked at Carl's Jr to support myself. I never once thought it'd be a good long term solution to a healthy financial life. It was gas money, beer, etc. These jobs are good to have at minimum wage because it teaches you the value of the dollar. They are not, nor should be considered a career. They don't have a retirement plan, they don't have insurance benefits, most don't have paid vacation. You go into this industry knowing this, so why make the choice to stick around for years? It's the lack of drive to improve your personal lifestyle, so these lifers at fast food seek a way to make more money in their current job, knowing what they were applying to from day 1.

People can make tons of excuses of why the are there, but in the end it's their own fault they stuck around. I strongly believe in learning the value of the dollar from these jobs. For many people, including myself, it's a pivotal point where we learn the difference between a job and a career. I realized I couldn't pay for college as well, and didn't want debt. My scholarship and grants only go so far. So i joined the Army, did a couple tours, was discharged then finished school to obtain my masters. The reason I say this isn't to brag, its to show you nobody is stuck. Its because I came from nothing. Literally nothing. With that said, I take a firm stance against people that feel they deserve more for doing nothing additional to deserve it.

You just proved that you don't need an education to get a decent paying job. Apply for a union job. What you did say is that even though someone has a low paying job that they absolutely hate, they should be paid more, instead of seeking other avenues? If people with that mentality put in as much effort into finding a decent job or career as they do in trying to convince the general public they're deserving of more pay, there wouldn't be much of an issue would there?

Again, these jobs are great for kids in high school and college. Ive never once considered them a career, and i assure you im not alone in that opinion. Its not a matter of people who make a ton of money and look down on these people. It's a matter of people who make a lot of money know what it took to get there. I guarantee you it was more than a 16 year old putting in an application.

Well said. Very close to my story except the Army bit. Good post!

[alexw]

These things wouldn't be a problem if we actually got rid of the idea that people need work in order to survive. Technology is rapidly pushing us past that, but we're being cruel to others and holding tech back solely to maintain capitalism for...some reason.

I think that idea is slowly dying away. Just look at this forum - you see the older, usually right-wing posters, complaining about people being lazy and that it should be work or starve. Then you have the generally younger posters talking about automation, and how we should find ways to distribute income irrespective of employment status, eliminating as many jobs as possible along the way. This trend can only go one way as generational replacement continues.

[Tinykong]

I actually prefer a kiosk. They have these at a gas station I get subs from once in a blue moon, and I can never remember what I like from there, so I can easily browse the menu and customize my sandwich without having to deal with an intermediary employee who probably knows less than I do.

[alexw]

Past what shit? Adulthood? Individual responsibility? Or do you means, past that shit like "math" (because you clearly think that any and every business should be able to pay enough wage for any particular job that someone could work that one and only job for 30-40 hours a week and afford whatever lifestyle they prefer).

Who is primarily responsible for your health, safety, welfare, and happiness in the course of your life?
A) You
B) Everybody, anybody else.

Again, businesses do not exist to give people jobs, that is incidental to their purpose, which is to provide a livelihood for their owner and/or investors.



"... eventually you run out of other people's money". True when it was said, true today, true forever.

This is totally incorrect. Businesses exist because as a society we have collectively decided that this is the best way to create wealth and improve the living standards of everyone. They exist solely for this reason and nothing else. If businesses cease doing that then at some point the system will overthrown and replaced with one that does. What the owner or investors make is irrelevant because that is not the purpose of the system, which is to provide the widest benefit to the largest number of people. The only reason those owners/investors make money is because we collectively have decided that incentivizing them via the profit motive is a good way to get that desired end result.

[Stormdash]

Depends on how you look at it I suppose. Either way though, Twdft is correct. You're eventually going to see steps towards basic income (or at the very least, much more bolstered jobless security), or you're going to see businesses become legally obligated to retain a certain percentage of employees no matter how automated they are.

So we're foreseeing totalitarianism left, right, and center?

This is totally incorrect. Businesses exist because as a society we have collectively decided that this is the best way to create wealth and improve the living standards of everyone. They exist solely for this reason and nothing else. If businesses cease doing that then at some point the system will overthrown and replaced with one that does. What the owner or investors make is irrelevant because that is not the purpose of the system, which is to provide the widest benefit to the largest number of people. The only reason those owners/investors make money is because we collectively have decided that incentivizing them via the profit motive is a good way to get that desired end result.

Makes sense.

If we were a fucking ant farm and not human individuals.

People start businesses because, in some combination, they want to do that actual sort of work, they want to answer to themselves as boss and not someone else, and they want to make a money. The guy that holds the franchise for the Wendy's is there for the same reason as his employees, to make money. But the owner is assuming most or all of the risk of loss in the venture, so, yeah, they get served first from the money cake. If Owner could do 100% of the work necessary for business to run, if they could and wanted to, they wouldn't have to hire anybody. You only hire somebody to do work that would otherwise be yours to take care of; you pay them only what it's worth to you to have them do it instead of you and that they are willing to take for it.

[melodramocracy]

So we're foreseeing totalitarianism left, right, and center?

You're certainly forseeing the end of capitalism as it's currently practiced, absolutely.

Historically, automation has been fortunate enough to be countered by other "stuff to do", so that productivity increased, and employment for the most part kept up with population numbers, at least in first world countries.

As automation gets better / faster / cheaper to implement, and most importantly, faster to adapt to different needs, the reliance on other 'stuff to do' for actual employment is going to rise dramatically. The shelf life of jobs that will eventually be automated will decrease. The result of both will = a rise in unemployment.

Lots of baby steps to happen between now and then, and it won't happen in our lifetimes, but the outcome is rather inevitable.

Makes sense.

If we were a fucking ant farm and not human individuals.

People start businesses because, in some combination, they want to do that actual sort of work, they want to answer to themselves as boss and not someone else, and they want to make a money. The guy that holds the franchise for the Wendy's is there for the same reason as his employees, to make money. But the owner is assuming most or all of the risk of loss in the venture, so, yeah, they get served first from the money cake. If Owner could do 100% of the work necessary for business to run, if they could and wanted to, they wouldn't have to hire anybody. You only hire somebody to do work that would otherwise be yours to take care of; you pay them only what it's worth to you to have them do it instead of you and that they are willing to take for it.

This is all true on a per-business level. In the bigger picture, they actually do serve to benefit society, and business in general sees the most growth when the widest pool of customers also benefit from it.

[alexw]

Makes sense.

If we were a fucking ant farm and not human individuals.

People start businesses because, in some combination, they want to do that actual sort of work, they want to answer to themselves as boss and not someone else, and they want to make a money. The guy that holds the franchise for the Wendy's is there for the same reason as his employees, to make money. But the owner is assuming most or all of the risk of loss in the venture, so, yeah, they get served first from the money cake. If Owner could do 100% of the work necessary for business to run, if they could and wanted to, they wouldn't have to hire anybody. You only hire somebody to do work that would otherwise be yours to take care of; you pay them only what it's worth to you to have them do it instead of you and that they are willing to take for it.

Humanity is an ant farm. If you think otherwise go find some deserted island with no-one else on it and create all the wealth yourself, with no collective input from anyone else. But you won't because humanity is a collaborative species that has only reached the state it has via collaborative effort i.e. the ant farm method.

And as I said businesses exist solely because we collectively think that is the best way to create wealth for everyone. No other reason. We know its true because at various times humanity has tried other organizational methods, but settled on this one because we reached the conclusion that it was the best system for widespread wealth creation. What an individual business owner / investor wants is irrelevant to that. They benefit from it but is not why it this system was adopted and is incidental to it. Hence why we also have laws on health and safety, minimum wage, anti-child labour, etc, etc, even though those laws are in direct opposition to what business owners and investors would want, because what those owners/investors want is not paramount because businesses don't exist for them but for the benefits they provide to wider society. If those benefits are not provided then the laws/system will be changed against the wishes of the owners/investors until it does. We are seeing that process playing out politically right now on both sides of the isle in fact.

Now obviously you don't like the truth's I have just posted but just because you don't like them doesn't mean they are not correct.

[AeneasBK]

I've preferred self-service tills at supermarkets and self service kiosks in fast food restaurants since they were introduced basically. Normally never a queue for them whatsoever and I tend to know what I want to order before I even go inside so people who are in a queue mulling it over "grind my gears", so avoiding that issue is also a plus.

[Eroginous]

There is a very valid argument in what I said. Some people just fail to see that you have to put in effort to make it anywhere. Most people, including myself, had work in the fast food or retail industry. My first job was at KFC at 15 years old. It taught me, and many others the value of your time and the dollar. Moving onto college I worked at Carl's Jr to support myself. I never once thought it'd be a good long term solution to a healthy financial life. It was gas money, beer, etc. These jobs are good to have at minimum wage because it teaches you the value of the dollar. They are not, nor should be considered a career. They don't have a retirement plan, they don't have insurance benefits, most don't have paid vacation. You go into this industry knowing this, so why make the choice to stick around for years? It's the lack of drive to improve your personal lifestyle, so these lifers at fast food seek a way to make more money in their current job, knowing what they were applying to from day 1.

People can make tons of excuses of why the are there, but in the end it's their own fault they stuck around. I strongly believe in learning the value of the dollar from these jobs. For many people, including myself, it's a pivotal point where we learn the difference between a job and a career. I realized I couldn't pay for college as well, and didn't want debt. My scholarship and grants only go so far. So i joined the Army, did a couple tours, was discharged then finished school to obtain my masters. The reason I say this isn't to brag, its to show you nobody is stuck. Its because I came from nothing. Literally nothing. With that said, I take a firm stance against people that feel they deserve more for doing nothing additional to deserve it.

You just proved that you don't need an education to get a decent paying job. Apply for a union job. What you did say is that even though someone has a low paying job that they absolutely hate, they should be paid more, instead of seeking other avenues? If people with that mentality put in as much effort into finding a decent job or career as they do in trying to convince the general public they're deserving of more pay, there wouldn't be much of an issue would there?

Again, these jobs are great for kids in high school and college. Ive never once considered them a career, and i assure you im not alone in that opinion. Its not a matter of people who make a ton of money and look down on these people. It's a matter of people who make a lot of money know what it took to get there. I guarantee you it was more than a 16 year old putting in an application.

This is what I'm talking about. You still think this is about a 16 year old wanting $15 an hour for their first job. I assure you, that is not what this discussion is about. While I agree that these sorts of jobs make great first time employment opportunities for minors, you have to understand that only a portion of the people working these jobs can be minors in the first place. Last I checked, school gets out around 3pm for high school kids across the country. McDonalds is open 365 days a year 24 hours in some places. It's not a 16 year old flipping your burger in a drive through at 3am. It's a fucking adult who is trying keep the lights on.

The majority of employees in the retail/food service industry, by default, have to be adults. The average big box retail store (walmart, kmart, home depot, ect) staffs about 100-150 employees per location. That's what it takes to run a store. They have to hire adults who can work during the hours teenagers are in school. What else are they going to do? Not be open until 3pm except on weekends? You really aren't grasping the reality of the situation. There are 100 million+ working able people in America. There aren't 100 million high power careers available in America. Who else is going to do these jobs? You have to understand there just isn't enough opportunity in America for your argument to have any relevance to anything. If it the people of earth were an advanced civilization with no economic system, everyone just had what they needed to live and then spent their time pursuing other endeavors, your argument would be spot on against the 53 year old working the gas pump, complaining about their station in life.

But we don't live in that world. We live in a world where everyone has the same basic needs, but most of those people engage in a daily struggle to meet those needs, despite the fact we currently have the global resources/technology to do away with every economic principle we follow today and make sure everyone just has what they need at no cost to them. Do you understand the gravity of what I'm saying? Let me parse it a little further: everyone has the same basic needs. Food, water, shelter, health care, transportation, and communication. These are the 6 things that you absolutely have to have as a human being today in order to live and function in society. Right now, we live in a system that tells someone they cannot have these things unless they buy them with currency they've earned through some means. This system sounds alright on it's face, you get what you earn, right? But then you take a closer look at the system and you realize that it's not that simple. You don't just get what you earn and everyone's happy, NBD. In the majority of available jobs, from the majority of hiring employers, you receive less money than what can fulfill your basic needs, for committing your time and efforts to doing tasks that directly benefit that employer first and foremost. The part you don't seem to understand is that the specific task is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if I'm mopping pissy hospital floors or fabricating space tooth brushes for rover equipment at NASA. My basic needs have to be met. Right? How else can anyone expect you to be happy, healthy, and productive at your job?

We're not trying to buy lambos and mansions with our McDonald's wages. We're trying to make rent on time and eat a healthy meal for dinner. McDonald's should value my time in a way that I can do that, regardless of what I do for them. It's not about making a career out of McDonalds. It's about being treated better while we're employed there, no matter how short a time it is. Again, if we lived in a different world, you might have a point. But we don't live in a world where there is equal opportunity. I can't walk out my back door and shoot a deer in the face and eat it. We don't live in a world where I can make my own life without the support of a 3rd party. I'd be breaking a half a dozen laws and losing my freedom, if I shot a deer in the face in order to eat. However, I can hop in my car, drive down the the local super market, and buy deer already killed, processed, and packaged just the way I like it. In fact, that's what the system requires me to do in order to eat.

And it works that way with every single thing someone needs in order to survive. I have to depend on an outside source for everything I need. I can't just take land, bull dose trees, level the soil, and build a house. I have to participate in a system of doing things for others in order get those things, and I have to give my time and effort first before I can be rewarded. As long as the government of the country I live in has created a system where I have to do this, they owe it to me and everyone else in the system to make sure that the companies I work for meet my basic survival needs.

That is what my government owes me. I'm not talking about socialism or communism or wealth redistribution or anything of the sort. We need an economic reform badly in America. I mean FFS, we're talking about basic human needs. Not wealth or luxury. Food. A place to live. In exchange for spending inordinate amounts of my time doing whatever mundane tasks are required of me.

And as to your point about people failing to see the requirement of their own effort? No, people aren't failing to see that. People see that quite clearly, in fact. If you get nothing else from the discussion we're having right now, at the very least you should understand that our core systems are badly designed and managed, to the point of crippling the upward mobility for the majority of people who live here. When you say 'work hard' you should really be saying 'work hard when someone has given you the opportunity' because that's the world you live in right now. You didn't get where you are alone, no one does. Stop pretending like the solution is for people to just do the thing on their own.

[Stormdash]

Humanity is an ant farm. If you think otherwise go find some deserted island with no-one else on it and create all the wealth yourself, with no collective input from anyone else. But you won't because humanity is a collaborative species that has only reached the state it has via collaborative effort i.e. the ant farm method.

Nah, we'll just do what we've been doing for a few hundred years on this planet -- putting down upjumped tyrants who think it's an ant farm and they the monarch. I think therefore I am, not ya'll think therefore I am.

And as I said businesses exist solely because we collectively think that is the best way to create wealth for everyone. No other reason.

Spoken like someone who never has started or run one and very likely never will or even understand why someone would want to do either. You start a business for the same reason you start any entry level job -- to make a career for yourself, your livelihood, your satisfaction, your comfort, your legacy.

Now obviously you don't like the truth's I have just posted but just because you don't like them doesn't mean they are not correct.

I reject the ignorant collectivist pablum you posted, that the truth has never met a word of.

- - - Updated - - -

You're certainly forseeing the end of capitalism as it's currently practiced, absolutely.

Yes, by all means, let's flush the economic system that literally invented economic mobility and transformed the entire human experience, making things like the idea of "retirement" and "leisure" things anybody in a society could aspire to without having been born into limitless wealth.

[Captain N]

Yes, by all means, let's flush the economic system that literally invented economic mobility and transformed the entire human experience, making things like the idea of "retirement" and "leisure" things anybody in a society could aspire to without having been born into limitless wealth.

Yes yes social mobility in this country is so great.

[AlphaOut]

This is what I'm talking about. You still think this is about a 16 year old wanting $15 an hour for their first job. I assure you, that is not what this discussion is about. While I agree that these sorts of jobs make great first time employment opportunities for minors, you have to understand that only a portion of the people working these jobs can be minors in the first place. Last I checked, school gets out around 3pm for high school kids across the country. McDonalds is open 365 days a year 24 hours in some places. It's not a 16 year old flipping your burger in a drive through at 3am. It's a fucking adult who is trying keep the lights on.

The majority of employees in the retail/food service industry, by default, have to be adults. The average big box retail store (walmart, kmart, home depot, ect) staffs about 100-150 employees per location. That's what it takes to run a store. They have to hire adults who can work during the hours teenagers are in school. What else are they going to do? Not be open until 3pm except on weekends? You really aren't grasping the reality of the situation. There are 100 million+ working able people in America. There aren't 100 million high power careers available in America. Who else is going to do these jobs? You have to understand there just isn't enough opportunity in America for your argument to have any relevance to anything. If it the people of earth were an advanced civilization with no economic system, everyone just had what they needed to live and then spent their time pursuing other endeavors, your argument would be spot on against the 53 year old working the gas pump, complaining about their station in life.

But we don't live in that world. We live in a world where everyone has the same basic needs, but most of those people engage in a daily struggle to meet those needs, despite the fact we currently have the global resources/technology to do away with every economic principle we follow today and make sure everyone just has what they need at no cost to them. Do you understand the gravity of what I'm saying? Let me parse it a little further: everyone has the same basic needs. Food, water, shelter, health care, transportation, and communication. These are the 6 things that you absolutely have to have as a human being today in order to live and function in society. Right now, we live in a system that tells someone they cannot have these things unless they buy them with currency they've earned through some means. This system sounds alright on it's face, you get what you earn, right? But then you take a closer look at the system and you realize that it's not that simple. You don't just get what you earn and everyone's happy, NBD. In the majority of available jobs, from the majority of hiring employers, you receive less money than what can fulfill your basic needs, for committing your time and efforts to doing tasks that directly benefit that employer first and foremost. The part you don't seem to understand is that the specific task is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if I'm mopping pissy hospital floors or fabricating space tooth brushes for rover equipment at NASA. My basic needs have to be met. Right? How else can anyone expect you to be happy, healthy, and productive at your job?

We're not trying to buy lambos and mansions with our McDonald's wages. We're trying to make rent on time and eat a healthy meal for dinner. McDonald's should value my time in a way that I can do that, regardless of what I do for them. It's not about making a career out of McDonalds. It's about being treated better while we're employed there, no matter how short a time it is. Again, if we lived in a different world, you might have a point. But we don't live in a world where there is equal opportunity. I can't walk out my back door and shoot a deer in the face and eat it. We don't live in a world where I can make my own life without the support of a 3rd party. I'd be breaking a half a dozen laws and losing my freedom, if I shot a deer in the face in order to eat. However, I can hop in my car, drive down the the local super market, and buy deer already killed, processed, and packaged just the way I like it. In fact, that's what the system requires me to do in order to eat.

And it works that way with every single thing someone needs in order to survive. I have to depend on an outside source for everything I need. I can't just take land, bull dose trees, level the soil, and build a house. I have to participate in a system of doing things for others in order get those things, and I have to give my time and effort first before I can be rewarded. As long as the government of the country I live in has created a system where I have to do this, they owe it to me and everyone else in the system to make sure that the companies I work for meet my basic survival needs.

That is what my government owes me. I'm not talking about socialism or communism or wealth redistribution or anything of the sort. We need an economic reform badly in America. I mean FFS, we're talking about basic human needs. Not wealth or luxury. Food. A place to live. In exchange for spending inordinate amounts of my time doing whatever mundane tasks are required of me.

And as to your point about people failing to see the requirement of their own effort? No, people aren't failing to see that. People see that quite clearly, in fact. If you get nothing else from the discussion we're having right now, at the very least you should understand that our core systems are badly designed and managed, to the point of crippling the upward mobility for the majority of people who live here. When you say 'work hard' you should really be saying 'work hard when someone has given you the opportunity' because that's the world you live in right now. You didn't get where you are alone, no one does. Stop pretending like the solution is for people to just do the thing on their own.

The solution is for people working these jobs to take a look in the mirror and ask themselves how they can improve their own life. Opportunities aren't handed out. First, you don't know me. Nobody gave me or many others I know handouts to get where they're at. You say there aren't enough high paying jobs for everyone, yet the same people as you aren't willing to go out and compete for them, or make themselves look competitive on paper. Just like i tell my little sister, who is 19 and just dropped out of college and struggling to make it on her own, get off your ass and make something of yourself instead of hiding behind that desk that you get paid peanuts to be at complaining about your life. You don't like where you're at? Tough. Do something about it.

I've laid out enough points previously and all I see are excuses. As I said, I've been in poverty, as with a number of my friends. Some still are. The choice is theirs if they're going to get out of being poor. Nobody else should care about your financial lifestyle more than you. If you honestly feel like the majority of people at minimum wage paying jobs can't crawl out of there and find something better you are awfully closed minded. I understand the basic needs. I understand them to a point that I did what I had to do to obtain those basic needs and then some. It's not an impossible task I promise you that.

I hate hearing that there aren't enough jobs. Absolutely hate it. Jobs, especially careers that offer advancement, are competitive. Don't expect an opportunity, seek success through your own means. The system isn't perfect, I will completely agree with you on that. But the government doesn't owe you anything, neither does any company myself or you have or have worked for. People who wait around to get paid usually never make it to the bank.

[Captain N]

Bootstrap Talking Point

And what happens when you find that competitive job, you spend 20 years at it, and then you're replaced? Are you supposed to go back to school and relearn an entire set of skills to "remain competitive"? What if large banks take a dive and your trade job gets wiped out for 2 years? Your entire argument revolves around a perfect set of circumstances where everyone at every time can just do better. It's nonsense and we have historical proof that not everyone can succeed and that anyone can lose their job at any time to anything.

Sure you can work hard and make the effort which is why those in support of higher wages for the lowest of workers have a better chance of bettering themselves. It may not be through college, as currently job placement rates among all degrees is a paltry 65%. Meaning that 35% of all people with degrees aren't finding work in their respective fields.

Your excuses argument is an excuse on its own -- You're belittling Labor because you seem to think that because you did it that everyone else can. If I were to make that same argument it would be that anyone with less than a $250,000/year household income just isn't trying hard enough. It doesn't make sense when I say it and it doesn't make sense when you say it either -- Not everyone is going to do something just because we were. Maybe try to take a look at this from a societal level instead of the individual level. People are losing their jobs at all income levels....skill, education, and experience do not matter to some employers. I promote higher wages for the bottom because those who are unfortunate to lose their jobs to any number of reasons should have enough to maintain a basic lifestyle...not luxurious but also not having to decide whether to have dinner or to keep the water on for another month.

[AlphaOut]

And what happens when you find that competitive job, you spend 20 years at it, and then you're replaced? Are you supposed to go back to school and relearn an entire set of skills to "remain competitive"? What if large banks take a dive and your trade job gets wiped out for 2 years? Your entire argument revolves around a perfect set of circumstances where everyone at every time can just do better. It's nonsense and we have historical proof that not everyone can succeed and that anyone can lose their job at any time to anything.

Sure you can work hard and make the effort which is why those in support of higher wages for the lowest of workers have a better chance of bettering themselves. It may not be through college, as currently job placement rates among all degrees is a paltry 65%. Meaning that 35% of all people with degrees aren't finding work in their respective fields.

Your excuses argument is an excuse on its own -- You're belittling Labor because you seem to think that because you did it that everyone else can. If I were to make that same argument it would be that anyone with less than a $250,000/year household income just isn't trying hard enough. It doesn't make sense when I say it and it doesn't make sense when you say it either -- Not everyone is going to do something just because we were. Maybe try to take a look at this from a societal level instead of the individual level. People are losing their jobs at all income levels....skill, education, and experience do not matter to some employers. I promote higher wages for the bottom because those who are unfortunate to lose their jobs to any number of reasons should have enough to maintain a basic lifestyle...not luxurious but also not having to decide whether to have dinner or to keep the water on for another month.

What I'm saying is entry level jobs are just that. Entry level. Sure it sounds arrogant, and it is to some extent. But why pay more for entry level positions. It just doesn't make sense to me. It's basically telling the younger generation that they're good enough where they're at. They don't need to do anything else but flip burgers, for example. Because somehow they're now making way more for the same thing most people my age did 10 or 15 years ago, but without the realization of the value of the dollar. The drive to find something better. It's just my opinion. I rather work somewhere that pays me next to nothing so I can learn how valuable it is to make a difference for yourself, and society as a whole depending on your field. But that's my opinion, and it's just that, an opinion. Agree to disagree?

[Captain N]

What I'm saying is entry level jobs are just that. Entry level. Sure it sounds arrogant, and it is to some extent. But why pay more for entry level positions. It just doesn't make sense to me. It's basically telling the younger generation that they're good enough where they're at. They don't need to do anything else but flip burgers, for example. Because somehow they're now making way more for the same thing most people my age did 10 or 15 years ago, but without the realization of the value of the dollar. The drive to find something better. It's just my opinion. I rather work somewhere that pays me next to nothing so I can learn how valuable it is to make a difference for yourself, and society as a whole depending on your field. But that's my opinion, and it's just that, an opinion. Agree to disagree?

I'm at a loss why you seem to think that people will stop trying to better themselves if you give them $15/hour -- Some people will go with the bare minimum to survive and that's OK but most people like having extra so you'll see the same drive out of those people as you do currently. They're just not going to be worried about not being able to afford to eat while they're striving for a better position.

I guess the question I should ask you is -- If you entered a company as a janitor making $20/hour would you stop there or would you still continue to move up in the Company if an opening for Machinist showed up and offered you $32/hour? I'd be grateful for that Company that gave me a great starting wage and the ability to make even more -- none of this "appreciate low wages" so you can strive to be be better stuff.