The Nightwell - will it be fixed or destroyed?

[Raetary]

There is also the Well of Eternity, and that's much closer to home.

the problem with the well is that its almost completely gone.

[muwatallis]

After spending quite a lot of time reading every single quest text available in Broken Isles in the Beta, I have a very strong hunch that the next Expansion will center around uncontrolled magic that has gone wild and involve dragons once again(Blues going offensive, Ebyssian confronting Wrathion, Ysera being replaced, and fuck knows what will happen with Alextrasza) and we might see the Warden class-to seek and bring justice and eventually, imprisonment to those at fault. There are very strong hints to suggest all these. The Nightwell might be a catalyst.

[Deleted]

After spending quite a lot of time reading every single quest text available in Broken Isles in the Beta, I have a very strong hunch that the next Expansion will center around uncontrolled magic that has gone wild and involve dragons once again(Blues going offensive, Ebyssian confronting Wrathion, Ysera being replaced, and fuck knows what will happen with Alextrasza) and we might see the Warden class-to seek and bring justice and eventually, imprisonment to those at fault. There are very strong hints to suggest all these. The Nightwell might be a catalyst.

I don't want Horde Wardens. Why should the Special Police Forces of the Night Elves teach the enemies of their Night elves their secrets?

[Mace]

The well of eternity is almost entirely destroyed by the legion

Which is why I think they are going to use it largely to fix the nightwell's corrupt state and it would be the night elven peoples new arcane source, kinda like the converse to the sunwell. but rather than divine purified, it would be Elune purified, this is what they do with the arcane waters in the moonwell.

Considering mana crystals work and tapping into ley lines as well, it would imply they simply need arcane.

Yeah, I noticed that, which is what makes me think that they can still survive, and it's just a matter of adapting normal arcane energy, think of it like preparing food bars to use on travel or learning to harvest an edible meal out of grains like corn, flour or rice, once you figure out a process you're good.

This may mean the nightwell is no longer being as essential for survival, but the night elves still need a power source to fight their many battles, in particular the legion, and since they revere the arcane so much, I'm willing to bet, they'll try to save

[Combatbutler]

Which is why I think they are going to use it largely to fix the nightwell's corrupt state and it would be the night elven peoples new arcane source, kinda like the converse to the sunwell. but rather than divine purified, it would be Elune purified, this is what they do with the arcane waters in the moonwell.

I wonder if the druids are willing to give up the sustenance for the world tree.

Yeah, I noticed that, which is what makes me think that they can still survive, and it's just a matter of adapting normal arcane energy, think of it like preparing food bars to use on travel or learning to harvest an edible meal out of grains like corn, flour or rice, once you figure out a process you're good.

This may mean the nightwell is no longer being as essential for survival, but the night elves still need a power source to fight their many battles, in particular the legion, and since they revere the arcane so much, I'm willing to bet, they'll try to save

Never forget they are quite numerous and as such need quite a bit of arcane energy, it works for the darkfallen, because they are not many, but it is unlikely they can sustain the Suramar population without something as powerful the nightwell.

[ravenmoon]

After spending quite a lot of time reading every single quest text available in Broken Isles in the Beta, I have a very strong hunch that the next Expansion will center around uncontrolled magic that has gone wild and involve dragons once again(Blues going offensive, Ebyssian confronting Wrathion, Ysera being replaced, and fuck knows what will happen with Alextrasza) and we might see the Warden class-to seek and bring justice and eventually, imprisonment to those at fault. There are very strong hints to suggest all these. The Nightwell might be a catalyst.

I am more with Shoc and that it would be Azshara.. they've done uncontrollable magic way too much, it's just a tool, like radiation leaks , they've already established that magic itself is not usually bad, well certainly the arcane or the light - you have the bad magics - Fel and shadow, but uncontrollable magic again for expansion 8? no thanks.

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I don't want Horde Wardens. Why should the Special Police Forces of the Night Elves teach the enemies of their Night elves their secrets?

I'm kinda agreeing with you on this too, blizzard should be trying to make groups more independent and formidable for their own unique assets and skills, rather than share everyone's thing around with everyone. That way it's far more interesting when say Night elves full with highborne/nightborne/druids/sentinels/moonguard etc come up against say Orcs and their whole camaraderie.

They should try to maintain that individuality, cos even though they might not be able to reflect it properly in wow, at least in other formats or genre types it can come out - it can even come out in wow, who says it always has to be a human alliance vs orcish horde thing - sometimes you can have a night elf lead force vs a forsaken or Troll lead force with all their various facets, and their allies pitching in, or just the hero by faction association.

[Mace]

I wonder if the druids are willing to give up the sustenance for the world tree.

IT may not be necessary to do so and still help.

The resto druid artifact quest states that the as long as a little remains they will recover, and we see later in Suramar when the first moonwell is set up by the Valsharah refugees that they are using some of the well waters to do so. It all depends on how they write it up.

Beisdes I still don't understand the full relationship of Nordrassil and the Well, Being a world tree, we know you don't need a Well to be a world tree, and Hyjal is on a natural leyline nexus too, a powerful one, it's purpose was regulating the energy flow principally to mask it. I don't think it even prevented use, because weren't the Zin'Azshari highborne (Darth'remar's lot) able to access it when they whipped up that storm, and it was that that resulted in their exile?

Still even though they didn't want it at first, I know the night elves are very protective of it, even now that there is no fear of it's use resulting in the Legion's return. The druids I feel are also quite keen to help purify things. They are not anti-arcane at all I realized recently they were just anti-abuse... you know, keep things in balance, keep yourself in balance etc kinda thing. An important thing seeing how going out of balance was what led to all this problem - Azshara's palace highborne thinking there was no limit or harm to over indulging with the arcane which at the time they thought could do nothing but good to the night elves even though the warning signs in their behaviour started becoming so clear that not only Malfurion but other Highborne in cities like Menaar and Eldre'thalas and most likely Nar'thalas and Suramar started warning about this, but the went unheeded by the Queen who in restrospect was probably unhinged by then.

They'd be up to for it I reckon, not sur eif it means the Well gone.. but we still have Illidan and he still has some vials left too. And surmar is under another nexus.

Never forget they are quite numerous and as such need quite a bit of arcane energy, it works for the darkfallen, because they are not many, but it is unlikely they can sustain the Suramar population without something as powerful the nightwell.

Thta's true, although we don't know the measure quite. atm it's all arbitary, The fight for the city will at least clear almost half the population imo, the nightborne nelven resistance does gather a following among the masses and with our help we eventually go for the current leadership, coupled with their losses at the Moonguard HQ to the north, I'm thinking a good portion maybe as much as a 3rd of their population if not more might be lost to the struggle.

But all that won't matter or mean much if the source gets purified and they find a way to help them concerning it anyway.

[Combatbutler]

IT may not be necessary to do so and still help.

The resto druid artifact quest states that the as long as a little remains they will recover, and we see later in Suramar when the first moonwell is set up by the Valsharah refugees that they are using some of the well waters to do so. It all depends on how they write it up.

The well can't return to its former power, since much of it was destroyed, unless they harvest massive amounts of arcane energy and infuse it into the well, like Kael did in netherstorm + anveena.

Beisdes I still don't understand the full relationship of Nordrassil and the Well, Being a world tree, we know you don't need a Well to be a world tree, and Hyjal is on a natural leyline nexus too, a powerful one, it's purpose was regulating the energy flow principally to mask it. I don't think it even prevented use, because weren't the Zin'Azshari highborne (Darth'remar's lot) able to access it when they whipped up that storm, and it was that that resulted in their exile?

The world tree is tied to well, the trees whole purpose is to regulate its power, without the well it is not nearly as powerful as it is now. So if you remove the well the tree becomes a regular world tree.

Still even though they didn't want it at first, I know the night elves are very protective of it, even now that there is no fear of it's use resulting in the Legion's return. The druids I feel are also quite keen to help purify things. They are not anti-arcane at all I realized recently they were just anti-abuse... you know, keep things in balance, keep yourself in balance etc kinda thing. An important thing seeing how going out of balance was what led to all this problem - Azshara's palace highborne thinking there was no limit or harm to over indulging with the arcane which at the time they thought could do nothing but good to the night elves even though the warning signs in their behaviour started becoming so clear that not only Malfurion but other Highborne in cities like Menaar and Eldre'thalas and most likely Nar'thalas and Suramar started warning about this, but the went unheeded by the Queen who in restrospect was probably unhinged by then.

The night elves still don't look kindly on the highborne and their dependency on the arcane. The nightborne are using arcane reckless if they are cornered, the night elves already look down on the blood elves for their desperation during their period without their well. It is unlikely they will suddenly show sympathy to highborne who were allied to the legion and entrust them with pretty much their last bit of the well of eternity.

They'd be up to for it I reckon, not sur eif it means the Well gone.. but we still have Illidan and he still has some vials left too. And surmar is under another nexus.

Illidan might have used his vial in Karabor, the bronze dragons have the last two, though I doubt they will hand them over to mortals.

[RedGamer030]

If we can cut Gul'dan off of it (i.e. kill him in the raid) and that alone shuts down the Legion's portal, that is all we will do to it (other than keep watch over it so the Burning Legion or the still-loyal Nightborne do not activate it once again). However if removing Gul'dan from the well does not close the portal (as indicated that we have to use all four Pillars of Creation to close it), then we might need to destroy or cleanse the Nightwell.

[Mace]

Firstly, thanks for responding combat, and I apologise for the length of my response, it's purely because I am enjoying this and writing my thoughts on the matter down, as I think about it and consider it more fully and in a more realistic sense, I find myself better understanding how I feel they are written to be and enjoy sharing it. So apologies if it does go on a bit and even strays.

The night elves still don't look kindly on the highborne and their dependency on the arcane.

I get this is more a throwback from the anger at the highborne nelves' role in the war of the ancients..well the palace highborne..than it is because it is necessarily a bad thingof itself.. because "arcane" dependency is rather subjective.. and you make a moral judgement on whether such a thing is good or bad. Night elves having lived simply and austerely for 10k years doing vigil, put their life of luxury behind them, they had no choice, everything was lost, no chance of rebuilding anything.. it's similar to how a purist might look down on us for being "dependent" on technology - it's a subjective term, because while some ofc are, many also are not, and it's not as if living with it is bad, it's just different from living without. If you build a society and infrastructure on fast communications, able to move about quickly you reach a level of efficiency and proficiency that requires those things to live like that. Once those things go, you can't live like that any more. It can be freeing, but it's also not necessarily the best thing for everyone either.

I'm sure they are night elves that missed that, but until Suramar there was no chance of ever getting that life back, at least Suramar and the nightborne nelves would potentially be an option for NElves who want that lifestyle.

The unkindness to the highborne I think was rooted far more firmly in the palace's highborne's role - remember at the time just before general night elf society was both jealous and finding highborne Nelves rather insufferable becasue of what had become a rather high handedness, so when the toruble started, they blamed it largely on them, and took it out on them, even though the Zin'Azshari highborne who rebelled against the queen (Darth'remar's group only) I feel made sufficient amends by their efforts for what role they may have played. The Shen'drelar Highborne NElves of Eldre'thalas were not complicit directly, but the scorn the night elf sentinel pours on Mordant Evenshade in the pre-cata event in the last patch of WotLK when he demands to speak to Tyrande reflects that the hurt for some is still there.

WE know Tryande re-accepts the highborne, Mordant Evenshade, Estulan and co are an uncorrupted group, and we find out that Maiev who is still very bitter about magic period might actually have been one of the major sources of the racism and anti-magic sentiment (wolfheart and Illidan novels expose this about her), we find out that those views are actually also a minority of the night elves and it is conceivable they are only persisting because of Maiev stirring up that kind of hatred. (WotA, Wolfheart and Illidan - all show you how) most Night elves are benevolent like, they know how to let go of hurt, forgive etc, but are also smart enough to know where blame is due, and what is really responsible. for e.g. they'd know it's not the arcane that's an issue, it's who uses it.

They would also by now know, handling something as powerful as the arcane must not be done with abandon any more than you should eat without control. To maximise you must keep yourself in balance, exercising, controlling your food intake etc. They would know this is where Azshara's palace highborne went off the rails, in an age where they felt magic couldn't possible do any harm to them in arrogance.

The nightborne are using arcane reckless if they are cornered, the night elves already look down on the blood elves for their desperation during their period without their well. It is unlikely they will suddenly show sympathy to highborne who were allied to the legion and entrust them with pretty much their last bit of the well of eternity.

Correct. Not many people get that the anger against the blood elves has not been a heated thing since the exile, it just re-ignited during the TBC error becasue of the blood elves' behaviour then, they were going out all reckless.

STill the night elves aren't one to condemn simply everybody or all of magic like some players think just because of this. for ever Azshara highborne or reckless blood elves there were many magic users who did not go overboard, who accorded their own body and the arcane with respect, determined, industrious and innovative - without over-reaching. The High Elves didn't go all during their period of deprevation and I'm sure would have earned many a NElves' respect if also pity at having to be in that state. The Highborne NElves of the Shen'drelar carried themselves with dignity and were uncorrupted despite their magical acumen and the mad prince they fled Eldre'thalas because of. Many more examples amongs tthe humans and especially the Draenei.

The good thing about the nightborne nelves, is that a fair few of them never joined the legion and were the ones to lead this resistance, proving themselves both trustworthy as individuals, we likely kill ALL the nightborne that side with the legion when we lead the resistance in the Nighthold raid, leaving the nightborne elven survivors and leaders ones defintiely worthy of trust and worth saving.

Whether enough to use the remaining bit of the Well of Eternity who knows. But I'm thinking with the well of eternity kinda of gone, what blizzard is doing is: they are going to give the nightwell to the NElves now, and expand the Well of Eternity to a global thing, probably mixed up in the plans Illidan has to overthrow the legion. All the ELves would be involved with that, but the Sunwell would be for the High ELven and Blood Elven peoples' use and the night well for the Night Elves (nightborne/highborne/normal). Or at least I think I'd like that.

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If we can cut Gul'dan off of it (i.e. kill him in the raid) and that alone shuts down the Legion's portal, that is all we will do to it (other than keep watch over it so the Burning Legion or the still-loyal Nightborne do not activate it once again). However if removing Gul'dan from the well does not close the portal (as indicated that we have to use all four Pillars of Creation to close it), then we might need to destroy or cleanse the Nightwell.

yeah, i'm heading with the last one, I suspect it's an either destroy or cleanse... and i'm leaning to clenase - because i'm leaning to playable nightborne as a night elven sub-race. Not all the nightborne are legion loyal though, don't forget it's the non-legion ones that we are helping against the legion. I think we win it for those night elves both the nightborne ones and the normal ones and I think they will become the new rulers. They and their kin, remember the majority of the normal night elves originally came from Suramar anyway, they and their descendants will also have right to the city alongside the resistance nightborne nelves. I can see it working out that way.

But blizzard are very spare on good tidings or things happening. We have to go back to TBC to find the last really good news at the end of great tragedy.. in TBC.. the Blood elves who had lost everything in WC3, 1. retake their city and have already repaired half of it. 2. Retake Quel'thalas from the scourge and your Ghostlands campaign finishes that off. 3. Get the Sunwell restored and even improved than before 4. Get redeemed too from the reckless state they started off in TFT

Seeing that the night elves in general have lost a whole lot more and legion sees new woes for that group the nightborne nelves in a desperate state and fractured (some betrayed to the Legion others fighting it) not to mention the state they have to contend with if deprived of the nightwell, the Well of Eternity finally pretty much lost to the night elves, the moonguard ended, the Wardens ended, the Dreamers crippled - add this to the woes of cataclysm and the 3rd war, failed attempt with Teldrassil, Cataclysm losses and damage - it is quite a toll - getting an ancient city back, much needed re-inforcements in the nightborne which would include a much stronger arcane arm than the shendre'lar were providing (b/c their numbers were so few) and a nightwell power source which they cleanse and heal the nightborne nelves would be a similar thing, but we can only hope.

[Hallowseve17]

After spending quite a lot of time reading every single quest text available in Broken Isles in the Beta, I have a very strong hunch that the next Expansion will center around uncontrolled magic that has gone wild and involve dragons once again(Blues going offensive, Ebyssian confronting Wrathion, Ysera being replaced, and fuck knows what will happen with Alextrasza) and we might see the Warden class-to seek and bring justice and eventually, imprisonment to those at fault. There are very strong hints to suggest all these. The Nightwell might be a catalyst.

Horde wardens? While it's an interesting idea, I'd have to pass. Night elves shouldn't teach Horde their ways, and what do warden even do to separate them from the other classes? Also, enough with classes, next expansion should be races and subraces-- the fantasy of the race, since Legion is about class fantasy.

[muwatallis]

About the Warden subject:

Pre-Burning Crusade, only Demon Hunter(s) was a Night Elf(Illidan). Pre-Classic Vanilla, all druids were only Night Elf. Wardens can also teach other races of mutual interest their (a bit of) dark arts, if there is a greater picture and a villain to catch and contain.

The idea behind my suggestion was, after reading every single quest text available in Broken Isles I'm pretty much sure the next Xpac is to contain a heavy dragon centric lore. I feel like something the size of a dinosaur eradicating crater is is bound to happen at the end of Legion with leaving a very big lore scar on Azeroth, releasing all energy that runs through the veins(Ley lines) of the planet hence forcing the Dragons to take self-justified action; some are for good some are for bad. Since Wardens are effective Arcane magic users(Think of abilities like Blink and Vengeance), it might be likely that they will side with the Blues to create or use a magically enchanted arcane prison "somewhere"(In Essence, a magical/arcane dimensional warden's vault) and they will hunt those who are breaking havoc alongside Alliance and the Horde. They might act as the Elite Police Force of entire Azeroth rather than just Kaldorei society.

Blizzard taught Tauren the Druidic arts of Night Elves in Vanilla. Blizzard taught the Blood Elves the arts of becoming Demon Hunter of the Night Elves in The Burning Crusade. There is no reason not to teach how to become a Warden to bring order to Azeroth when everything goes south on the entire planet.

Again, that's just an impression and a hunch I've got. I'm not saying "This will happen I'm sure 100%!" etc.

[ravenmoon]

Horde wardens? While it's an interesting idea, I'd have to pass. Night elves shouldn't teach Horde their ways, and what do warden even do to separate them from the other classes? Also, enough with classes, next expansion should be races and subraces-- the fantasy of the race, since Legion is about class fantasy.

While I agree with you, it's not even that, all the cool night elf stuff is exported out, so much so it leaves the race not feeling very special. First they give them amazing empire, take it way, great arcane skills, take it way, cool things like immortality etc, take it away, power like the well, take it away. DHs, get shared, Druids get shared

now I'm seeing calls for nightborne to be horde and wardens shared and I'm like so night elves aren't allowed to be cool or have anything cool. Only people who've read the lore seem to know that night elves were once quite cool and were more than tree hugger hippsters that you easily steamroll. ONly those who played WC3 remember that night elves once use to be badass.

Now for the first time legion showing night elves in a cool light - Wardens, Demon Hunters, Nightborne arcane casters, Suramar city - these are nice things, and they're interesting again and players are like - lets have this on the horde - or like uh - this looks more horde than alliance and I'm like sheesh! light forbid night elves get anything not lame...

Nightborne are a part of night elven society, one that blizzard only described but never showed, yes night elves can be powerful casters and in fact were the most renowned and skilled in the field - and they still endure in the highborne and nightborne night elves - and can actually be very cool - so rather than open up wow players to see more of night elves and experience them as more than just tree huggers, they should give their much needed arcane re-inforcements to the horde, warden to the horde, oh and lets share demon hunters with all the other races too. Lets make nothing unique.

So i bet when we get tinkers, we should have races other than gnomes and goblins be able to be them right? NO! Blizzard don't do it. It's nice to strengthen a race's identity, and broaden it a bit in the game to the scope it is in the lore too. Exclusivity is all the races have for their identity. Wardens are night elves only, nightborne are part of the night elves. Hands off hordies.

[Combatbutler]

nightborne are part of the night elves. Hands off hordies.

Nightborne don't fit into either faction yet, they are their own independent society and blizz has to flesh them out in order for them to fit into the Alliance to be honest.

[ravenmoon]

Nightborne don't fit into either faction yet, they are their own independent society and blizz has to flesh them out in order for them to fit into the Alliance to be honest.

that's true. There is no alliance connection politically yet, and may never be.

but they are night elves, if a sub-race of them, and whether they get to be playable or not, they are part of the night elf lore and I like that they are there as they represent an important part of night elves that has not been shown in WoW or WC3, only in the lore narrative. Like the Demon Hunter group or the highborne nelven group prior to Cata or the Moonguard group or the Dreamer group or the Cenarion group - they don't have to politically join the alliance night elves. But night elves they are and if they should be in a faction, it would be a huge blow not to be part of the night elves. For as I look at them now in Legion, they are really really pressed now.

[Koryn123]

Whatever happens to the Nightwell, I dearly hope the Blood Elves (and Night Elves to a lesser extent, because I don't like them as much, but I hope they become cooler in Legion) have some part to play.

In Legion, Blizzard has the opportunity to give some spotlight to the Night Elves and Blood Elves through their connection to the Nightborne elves.

I worry that Blizzard isn't going to capitalize on any of these things, though, and instead of doing something like having a Blood Elf or Shen'drelar mage investigate some Nightborne artifacts, since they're the closest-related group, and thus should be the best qualified for unlocking their secrets, I'm afraid Blizzard will just toss that out the window and have people find the artifacts, and then bring them straight to Khadgar and the Kirin Tor to look at.

They did this in WoD with the Arcane Sanctum, with Horde garrison leaders thinking

"I need an arcane sanctum. Okay, it's built, now we need to connect it to the ley line network. But who could do such a thing? Hmmmmmm..." *Stares out among all their garrison people, completely ignoring the Blood Elves, masters of arcane magic for over 10,000 years, with their culture steeped in arcane knowledge for generations* "Let's go to that Kirin Tor base and ask them to help us. It's not like their leader is a racist emotionally and mentally damaged crazy person completely unfit to lead who thinks she has the authority to act unanimously without the Council of Six's approval or anything. And it's not like they have innocent Sunreaver civilians in prison as we speak at this very moment or anything. And it's not like they still think Aethas is a traitor who needs to apologize to /them/ for choosing his people over the Kirin Tor, as the Kirin Tor have done twice now, once with Garithos, then again with Jaina. I'm suuuuuuuure they're trustworthy, and that not a single one among them is loyal to Jaina and thus might try to sabotage our arcane sanctum with disastrous results. The all-knowing 30-year old human magi of Dalaran are the foremost experts on the Arcane. Certainly not the hundreds or millennia year old elves who all have an affinity for arcane magic, even if they're not mages themselves. Nope. Now let's go grovel before Khadgar, shall we?"

And they did it again with the Demon Hunters, who are made up of Blood Elves and Night Elves, all of whom had to have been with Illidan and Kael'thas in Outland. Thus, all the Blood Elves among them were with Kael'thas in their WC3:TFT campaign. Thus, they were all in Dalaran when the Kirin Tor stood back and did nothing while Garithos tried to execute one of their ruling council members, as well as the strongest, most selflessly brave Blood Elves surviving after Quel'thalas' destruction, in Dalaran only because they were there to help the humans. So the Blood Elf demon hunters should not have a high opinion of Dalaran and the Kirin Tor.

Now, both the Night Elf and Blood Elf demon hunters were with Illidan in Outland, so they were all there in BC when Khadgar was foolishly aiding the Naaru in dismantling Illidan's efforts against the Legion in their overzealous quest, because Illidan had demons on his team. So they should not have a high opinion of Khadgar either.

Yet, when they emerge from the Vault of the Wardens, rather than have a cool dramatic reunion with their people, who at least the Blood Elf Demon Hunters should be the least bit curious about, Khadgar poofs there and says "Hey, come to Dalaran and help us against a world-ending threat, because it's not like things didn't go horribly for you the last time you trusted us in that scenario!"

And the Demon Hunters agree and become Khadgar's little helper monkeys.

I greatly dislike that Blizzard is constantly pushing the humans as the all-powerful mary-sues who are the best at everything who everyone wants to serve. They make all the other races lick their boots, especially when they had Aethas hock a priceless royal family heirloom national treasure of Quel'thalas to the Kirin Tor, just to be allowed the opportunity to ask them if he could come back, with no guarantees. Blizzard depicts all the other races as so desperate to be the humans' pets, to the point where the other races prefer to be second-class citizens, forever mistrusted and prejudiced against, rather than be respected members of their own societies.

In WotLK, at least the Blood Elves had the fact that Dalaran needed them more than the Blood Elves needed Dalaran going for them.

Now in Legion, Dalaran still hasn't done anything I can see to be considered attractive to the Blood Elves, yet Blizzard paints them as desperate to be let back in, to the point where committing high treason by hocking Kael'thas' sword to them without even mentioning it to Lor'themar, Rommath, or Halduron, seems a perfectly acceptable thing to do.

The only redeeming trait to the fire mage artifact scenario I can think of is that the recipient of Felo'melorn is a Blood Elf mage without Aethas' blindness to the Kirin Tor's nonexistent neutrality. They're not the tolerant neutral funbuddies Blizzard pretends they are. Immediately upon arriving in Dalaran, the Demon Hunters experience that firsthand, with the guards at the Violet Hold refusing to cooperate, looking down on the demon hunters because they don't look pretty and happy and nice like the rest of their Alliance friends.

It's my opinion, but I think that Felo'melorn going to anyone else but a Blood Elf just sounds dumb. Or Thas'dorah going to a non-Blood Elf (or High-Elf, lorewise). Alleria's bow going to anyone else but a Blood Elf Farstrider loyal to Quel'thalas as she was, or to a High Elf member of Alleria's group from Allerian Stronghold, like Auric, her third-in-command. Auric has no quarrel with Quel'thalas, has a mutual respect for the Blood Elves, is allowed access to the Sunwell, and he honors his duty to the High Elf pilgrims to Quel'danas, making it his responsibility to ensure that they're treated fairly.

While Vereesa and the Silver Covenant are just immature violent asshats.

Auric and his High Elves are like Saurfang, skilled, but level-headed, while Vereesa and her Silver Covenant elves are like Garrosh, violent and childish.

[ravenmoon]

Whatever happens to the Nightwell, I dearly hope the Blood Elves (and Night Elves to a lesser extent, because I don't like them as much, but I hope they become cooler in Legion) have some part to play.

In Legion, Blizzard has the opportunity to give some spotlight to the Night Elves and Blood Elves through their connection to the Nightborne elves.

They do, i hear you, and i know Mace feels the same way too, and I quite like blood elves myself, but I must say I wish the night elves only get the nightborne, because it's been so long for the night elves to get anything cool or remotely worth being proud off, and they already shared Demon Hunters. The nightborne NElves show an important of their society for which the Blood elves already have properly covered.

The idea of this was to show you other parts of night elves not shown before, wow hasn't really seen the amazonian warrior side shown in WC3, nor the broader arcane elements in the pre-sundering lore. In fact blood elves have had much more in-game lore development in WoW, spanning multiple sub-races and political complexities and variations. When they tried to show the arcane element in the shen'drelar it did not do it justice, it was weak for they were few, and their city was in ruins.

All in all night elves are the ones that need to gain this, their armies could use this influx and I hope they get it. Demon Hunters had to be shared because it was a class, and we see calls for them to expand them to others, which I hope they do not. Not for a long long time at least

So whiles I respect you and Mace's desire for both and even those who just want it for bloode lves, see where I'm coming from, I want them to expand the night elves a bit not kill them off. Make full their lore in game and not just in the lore books. I like their vein of nature, priestly and arcane - in the druids, the priests and pre-sundering type civilization which i'm glad now has a version in the present.. the whole night theme and the stars and moon, really like it. Like the sun one too, but it seems weird to mix the sun and moon one together, the night and day.

I do think that Elves should be separate from the horde/alliance eventually, i'll give that, and while I'd love them to be allied, they should be so but as separate groups, not a united in one place. When blood elves and high elves build they should build in that sun/light element and style, when night elves build they should build in the Suramar type style. When you meet them out in the wilds amongst the druids, or in camps, they can have the tree buildings. but keep them separate.

[Koryn123]

They do, i hear you, and i know Mace feels the same way too, and I quite like blood elves myself, but I must say I wish the night elves only get the nightborne, because it's been so long for the night elves to get anything cool or remotely worth being proud off, and they already shared Demon Hunters. The nightborne NElves show an important of their society for which the Blood elves already have properly covered.

The idea of this was to show you other parts of night elves not shown before, wow hasn't really seen the amazonian warrior side shown in WC3, nor the broader arcane elements in the pre-sundering lore. In fact blood elves have had much more in-game lore development in WoW, spanning multiple sub-races and political complexities and variations. When they tried to show the arcane element in the shen'drelar it did not do it justice, it was weak for they were few, and their city was in ruins.

All in all night elves are the ones that need to gain this, their armies could use this influx and I hope they get it. Demon Hunters had to be shared because it was a class, and we see calls for them to expand them to others, which I hope they do not. Not for a long long time at least

So whiles I respect you and Mace's desire for both and even those who just want it for bloode lves, see where I'm coming from, I want them to expand the night elves a bit not kill them off. Make full their lore in game and not just in the lore books. I like their vein of nature, priestly and arcane - in the druids, the priests and pre-sundering type civilization which i'm glad now has a version in the present.. the whole night theme and the stars and moon, really like it. Like the sun one too, but it seems weird to mix the sun and moon one together, the night and day.

I do think that Elves should be separate from the horde/alliance eventually, i'll give that, and while I'd love them to be allied, they should be so but as separate groups, not a united in one place. When blood elves and high elves build they should build in that sun/light element and style, when night elves build they should build in the Suramar type style. When you meet them out in the wilds amongst the druids, or in camps, they can have the tree buildings. but keep them separate.

Eh, I think demon hunters were fine. I thought it was cool that Kael'thas sent some Blood Elves to be trained by Illidan, and they succeeded. I feel like there's plenty of precedence for Blood Elf demon hunters to be perfectly acceptable.

The reason I feel that Blood Elves should have a hand in the story around what happens with the Nightborne is because the Blood Elves' society is far more similar to the Nightborne's than the Night Elves' is. What the Nightborne have been doing and how they've been living these past 10,000 years encapsulates everything the Night Elves renounced after the Sundering.

I was kind of surprised that the Shen'drelar elected to rejoin the rest of the Night Elves, too. Their cultures had grown so far apart, with the Shen'drelar keeping to what they'd been doing for millennia since then, and the Night Elves banishing Dath'remar's Highborne, and any remaining magi taking up druidism. They're no longer a materialistic people, living among the trees and in buildings that, for the most part, are pretty much in sync with nature.

The Nightborne are a continuation of the Night Elves' pre-Sundering society, on a steady course of advancement, with a focus on arcane magic, without skipping a beat.

The Blood Elves' are also a continuation of the Night Elves' pre-Sundering society, with the exception of their religion, renouncing Elune and becoming diurnal. They experienced a setback for 3,000 years or so (I haven't read Chronicles) between the Sundering and when they went to Quel'thalas, but they returned to their former course, pursuing more knowledge of arcane magic with little interference for a long while. They did have the Amani threat, but the Sunwell kept them going for a while, until the trolls and the Ancients that were helping them proved too numerous, and the High Elves got the humans' help.

The Shen'drelar are a shadow of the Night Elves' pre-Sundering society. They stagnated and changed their focus on advancement in the arcane, to simply surviving by sucking fel from Immol'thar for 10,000 years, making them essentially super Blood Elves in every way except being diurnal.

I find it kind of silly for the Shen'drelar to join the Darnassian splinter over the Thalassian one, because the Darnassians hate arcane and fel, both of which the Shen'drelar were doing. Only for the Shen'drelar, it was every single one of them, and for 10,000 years, while with the Blood Elves, it was just Kael's group, and for 5 years (between TFT and BC).

The Shen'drelar are the closest thing to the Nightborne, but Blood Elves are close behind, if not tied.

The Shen'drelar were still using archaic magics easily exploited by the Blood Elf mage in Azshara, which shows that they weren't making many advancements with their attention focused on keeping Immol'thar locked up, while to the Blood Elf mage, it was simple to wrest control of the arcane construct they'd made, and turn it on its former masters.

I highly doubt that they're allowed to do a whole lot of studies and experiments in Darnassus, surrounded by all the Night Elves who don't like arcane. It's gotten better through their friendship with the Alliance, but the hatreds are still there. I don't think they're making many breakthroughs with their nature-loving kin breathing down their necks.

So the Shen'drelar are nocturnal like the Nightborne, but the Blood Elves have made a lot of progress with the arcane like the Nightborne.

I would love for the Shen'drelar to get more spotlight, and be in an environment where they'd be free to thrive, but I also want the Blood Elves to be shown to be good at something. I feel that they'd be the best-qualified to unlock the secrets of the Nightborne's magics, having a common ancestry, and thus similar language, culture, and styles, with the Shen'drelar as a close second, with the fact that they haven't made nearly so much progress as the Blood Elves weighing them down.

But, I wouldn't mind if the honor went solely to the Shen'drelar, if Blood Elves weren't possible.

Something, ANYTHING that isn't Blizzard trying to shove down our throats that the 30-year old human magi of the Kirin Tor know best what to do and how to decipher the Nightborne's stuff. Because they should not. That would be stupid. Let the elves be independent. Let Aethas not be a doormat, and instead of be Dalaran's footstool, he should take his Sunreavers to establish a base in some Nightborne city, being a little proactive for once.

The Blood Elves are MORE than the Kirin Tor's pets. If Blizzard doesn't stop forcing them to be so, that'll be dumb.

[Mace]

In Legion, Blizzard has the opportunity to give some spotlight to the Night Elves and Blood Elves through their connection to the Nightborne elves.

I worry that Blizzard isn't going to capitalize on any of these things, though, and instead of doing something like having a Blood Elf or Shen'drelar mage investigate some Nightborne artifacts, since they're the closest-related group, and thus should be the best qualified for unlocking their secrets, I'm afraid Blizzard will just toss that out the window and have people find the artifacts, and then bring them straight to Khadgar and the Kirin Tor to look at.

So true, I was a bit disappointed that Khadgar met the Demon Hunters at the end of their starting zone exiting the vault of the wardens. It was a perfect opportunity for the highborne leader Mordant Evenshade to be the one really providing much of the ancient lore on the broken Isle, he and his friends are arcane knowledgeable from as far back as then, they are the perfect choice to be uncovering the night elven zone.

Should've been the Highborne Archmage telling about the Pillars of Creation too, or at least one of the Night Elves former mages/highborn who come from Suramar originally (since most of them did or are descended from those who did).

Furthermore, I feel it should have been Evensahde introducing you to Azsuna, and also Evenshade who catches the spell message Thalyssra sends. Khadgar does a lot of other things, those 3 bits should have been the night elf highborne. It seems wasted. But I think sometimes we think more of this than they do.

And they did it again with the Demon Hunters, who are made up of Blood Elves and Night Elves, all of whom had to have been with Illidan and Kael'thas in Outland. Thus, all the Blood Elves among them were with Kael'thas in their WC3:TFT campaign. Thus, they were all in Dalaran when the Kirin Tor stood back and did nothing while Garithos tried to execute one of their ruling council members, as well as the strongest, most selflessly brave Blood Elves surviving after Quel'thalas' destruction, in Dalaran only because they were there to help the humans. So the Blood Elf demon hunters should not have a high opinion of Dalaran and the Kirin Tor.

Interesting point, whiles I agree with you it's another thing they missed, but then it's war time and the urgency of the entity they hate so much, should make a past like that barely relevant. they as demon hunters have had such intense re-conditioning with almost singular purpose, hunt the legion, i'm willing to let this oversight pass though because i can see the demon hunters not caring too much there, however some acknowledgement of this would have been neat and enjoyable by those who get it.

Now, both the Night Elf and Blood Elf demon hunters were with Illidan in Outland, so they were all there in BC when Khadgar was foolishly aiding the Naaru in dismantling Illidan's efforts against the Legion in their overzealous quest, because Illidan had demons on his team. So they should not have a high opinion of Khadgar either.

Ah, you need to read Illidan. I think it clears that up, you are taken into the life and mind of one of the demon hunter, and he is a typical example of the motivations and reasonsings that led elves to become demon hunters, night or blood. THere training is so intense, and the ones that get captured by the Wardens may not have even known of Khadgar at all, because in the story they don't really engage him or us. When they return Illidan is slain and they are captured by the wardens, and it wasn't Khadgar that fought in the black temple it was the player hero.

Also I think that the demon hunters like Illidan view any hate their people have for them more like foolish mis-understanding of children who just don't see, but something they don't have time to sit and explain and argue when a far more important work and task of ending the legion is on-going. So Illidans attitude is "deal with them if they become a nuisance", but otherwise keep your eyes on the main target. They don't view the rest of us as enemies even though we may view them. They kinda know that we don't understand, and they find it annoying, but this is what Legion i think may finally do, vindicate Illidan and the methods he used as heroic if not necessarily good, but understandble even admirable and the only salvation against this.

Yet, when they emerge from the Vault of the Wardens, rather than have a cool dramatic reunion with their people, who at least the Blood Elf Demon Hunters should be the least bit curious about, Khadgar poofs there and says "Hey, come to Dalaran and help us against a world-ending threat, because it's not like things didn't go horribly for you the last time you trusted us in that scenario!"

And the Demon Hunters agree and become Khadgar's little helper monkeys.

I greatly dislike that Blizzard is constantly pushing the humans as the all-powerful mary-sues who are the best at everything who everyone wants to serve. They make all the other races lick their boots, especially when they had Aethas hock a priceless royal family heirloom national treasure of Quel'thalas to the Kirin Tor, just to be allowed the opportunity to ask them if he could come back, with no guarantees. Blizzard depicts all the other races as so desperate to be the humans' pets, to the point where the other races prefer to be second-class citizens, forever mistrusted and prejudiced against, rather than be respected members of their own societies.

In WotLK, at least the Blood Elves had the fact that Dalaran needed them more than the Blood Elves needed Dalaran going for them.

You're not the only one at all, my argument is that blizzard shoud use this opportunity to bring the elves from out of dependency on the horde and alliance from a lore perspective. Suramar and the nightborne may be night elven but the blood elves and high elves are connected to the night elven past.

I have since found out that the blood elves and high elves come from the Zin'Azshari Night elven highborne casters that betrayed Azshara, whereas the majority of the other night elven survivors that commit to the long vigil are actually from Suramar. Only in cataclysm do we meet night elves from Eldre'thalas another city, still, it is significant to all Elves, and the reason for their great feud was the Legion. Now the legion has returned, night and blood elf are working together, the hurts rekindled in TBC should die down, the demon hunters should be leading the Elves in unity against the legion, but as they don't all share that all consuming passion, I believe some would want to focus on protecting Azeroth from other threats too, and still others on rebuilding their civilziation. Suramar is quite the beacon of hope to the elves, especially the night elves who thought everything was lost in the sundering, and now 10k years later have nearly lost everything else of theirs. Suramar would be the motivation they woudl get to say hang on.. this is enough, we're not going to let the Legion steal away our city again..

With the numbers of the nightborne nelves that overthrow their corrupt leaders, i think Elves should unite together even though it's Night Elves and Blood Elves with the nightwell and sunwell etc yet they now work as one in a new NPC faction, with the leadership in Suramar. They ccomission the Darnassian Elves to continue working the alliance to ensure that the alliance don't forget the bigger picture, don't produce a Garrosh and don't have their squabble with the horde jeopardise the world's ability to fight threats and also that their conflict doens't interfere with the Nelves' rebuilding efforts. Likewise they send Thalassian Blood Elves to do similar to the horde, It essentially establishes elves as major power force in the story without the need to change anything with the playable race format. it's just the lore reasons and roles of the Elves in the horde and alliance will change. You can still have your nightborne playable night elf sub-race being night elf they can operate for the alliance, but their first loyalty like all elves would be to the Elven nation, same with the high elves, and every other Elven sub-race, even if Fel-elves become playable which with demon hunters i can see that being possible afterall, if the Illidari work with demons and the fel elves want to help, they're in, same with San'layn or Wretched or whoever. The only issue might be Forsaken Elves, because they are under Sylvannas and the Forsaken lead the horde. However Darkfallen are vampire Elves that could also be a part of this.

Now in Legion, Dalaran still hasn't done anything I can see to be considered attractive to the Blood Elves, yet Blizzard paints them as desperate to be let back in, to the point where committing high treason by hocking Kael'thas' sword to them without even mentioning it to Lor'themar, Rommath, or Halduron, seems a perfectly acceptable thing to do.

It's not flattering to blood elves no, but Aethas is Kirin'TOr and he has been fighting hard to ensure the blood elves stay a part of the orgnaisation which is hard after the Theramore incident, it's something blizzard can fix in time, but it's interesting to see a blood elf humbling himself so, but it firts the build though - you ever seen the arrogant rich kid who's normally very stuffy and difficult actually want something from you, it's amazing he is not afraid to plead and grovel if he knows he can't force it from you.

Still I think now Dalaran is gone neutral again the blood elves have had to play a part, I suspect part of the reason might be because Suramar and the nightborne and the nightwell are going to the night elves. The well of eternity has pretty much gone now, so the night elves will now be the magical counterpart to the blood elves on the factions - whiles Dalaran remains the neutral. The night elves getting the night well instead of the Well of Eternity which becomes a global thing now.

I suspect it will go down that way but hope they will be more ambitious and momentous and do something like an NPC Elven nation.

The only redeeming trait to the fire mage artifact scenario I can think of is that the recipient of Felo'melorn is a Blood Elf mage without Aethas' blindness to the Kirin Tor's nonexistent neutrality. They're not the tolerant neutral funbuddies Blizzard pretends they are. Immediately upon arriving in Dalaran, the Demon Hunters experience that firsthand, with the guards at the Violet Hold refusing to cooperate, looking down on the demon hunters because they don't look pretty and happy and nice like the rest of their Alliance friends.

It's my opinion, but I think that Felo'melorn going to anyone else but a Blood Elf just sounds dumb. Or Thas'dorah going to a non-Blood Elf (or High-Elf, lorewise). Alleria's bow going to anyone else but a Blood Elf Farstrider loyal to Quel'thalas as she was, or to a High Elf member of Alleria's group from Allerian Stronghold, like Auric, her third-in-command. Auric has no quarrel with Quel'thalas, has a mutual respect for the Blood Elves, is allowed access to the Sunwell, and he honors his duty to the High Elf pilgrims to Quel'danas, making it his responsibility to ensure that they're treated fairly.

While Vereesa and the Silver Covenant are just immature violent asshats.

Auric and his High Elves are like Saurfang, skilled, but level-headed, while Vereesa and her Silver Covenant elves are like Garrosh, violent and childish.

Actually Vereesa is a lot less manic than she was in WotLk where the sting of betrayal the high elves felt concerning the blood elves was much fresher. You see her really love and care for a blood elf that is helping her and you in the quest for Thas'dorah, and i think a love thing is happening between Halduron and Vereesa.

Like Maiev Shadowsong, blizzard have decided not to turn the into complete evil psycho biatches. Vereesa seems a lot nicer now. Makes me think a high elf reunion is incoming.

Whiles I don't object to that, i do like the fact that high elves and blood elves are philosophically different and don't mind that htey are politically different too, however blood elf changes are making htem a lot more high elf again and the distinction is not so clear anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

They do, I hear you ....

I hear you too, but don't you think it would be even better if the Elves formed a nation again? Like united because of the real threat and committed to ending the legion and protecting Azeroth, and form this pact of working together till it's done, That they become a force to be reckoned with no longer depending on horde or alliance or being defined by them in the lore to players as horde/alliance thing which is an orc/human thing?

[Viradiance]

As a huge fan of night elves, I sincerely hope that everything about Suramar and the Nightwell ends up in ruins by the end of Legion.