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  1. #1
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    Question Current balancing

    Post gotten old - outdated.
    Last edited by mmocd753e00ae7; 2016-05-23 at 10:17 PM. Reason: Added Official topic

  2. #2
    Game isn't balanced around 1v1 or 2v2, but 3v3 and 5v5. Both situations where ccing a member or being good against healers is good. Also situations where becoming immune to damage when they cc your team and blow cd's to kill you is good.
    For the Alliance, and for Azeroth!

  3. #3
    DH survivability is pretty trash in general, even against quest mobs.

  4. #4
    Its a little off-kilter right now, but then i'm still learning it to. Must move around a lot more for the shards that give back hp/fury. Its good when you get the crits giving back fury because then its seems I can get some wicked combo's going and down stuff pretty fast, but if I don't get that free fury for the crit then it seems to be a little weak, even against quest mobs.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by sith View Post
    DH survivability is pretty trash in general, even against quest mobs.
    Indeed

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthMonk79 View Post
    Its a little off-kilter right now, but then i'm still learning it to. Must move around a lot more for the shards that give back hp/fury. Its good when you get the crits giving back fury because then its seems I can get some wicked combo's going and down stuff pretty fast, but if I don't get that free fury for the crit then it seems to be a little weak, even against quest mobs.
    Well, i don't seem to get any shards, i see a single one in like 1 out of 5 duels, that's it. Do you do anything to get more of theese? Select anything or what does generate them for you? Maybe i've missed something.
    Perhabs you're using "Demonic Appetite", but i fiqured that "Blind fury" was kind of a must?

    As i see it demon hunters can do tons of damage - if allowed. But their weakness in survivability makes them so weak.
    But again, this can just be a matter of skills.
    Last edited by mmocd753e00ae7; 2016-05-14 at 07:23 PM.

  6. #6
    Yeah I took Demonic Appetite, I get a few shard every fight, sometimes. It works better indoors or in small enclosed areas otherwise the orbs/shards appear a decent spot away. Makes survivability a lot better. Got first blood as well and then the weapon talent of Balanced blades and my survival and damage is even better against bigger groups.

  7. #7
    High Overlord W1shm4ster's Avatar
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    I wish they would change metamorphosis a bit and split it up.

    25% leech in regular form and then it goes up to the 100% in metamorphosis, this would give us some survivability which we lack outside of the demon form. It feels like every other class has some active self heal or at least a sort of spamable ability which give them back some HP.

    The change to demonic is only good for damage (i would say, since you now can use the full 5 sec to do more than just eye beam and 1 ability).
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by W1shm4ster View Post
    The change to demonic is only good for damage (i would say, since you now can use the full 5 sec to do more than just eye beam and 1 ability).
    Eye Beam + Demonic was not changed in a way that increases damage, it just stops Soul Rending working on the Eye Beam channel. It used to grant the Eye Beam cast + 5sec (so 7sec), now it's simply 5sec at the end of the cast. It always accounted for time wasted casting/being on GCD since Demonic became a guaranteed proc.

  9. #9
    High Overlord W1shm4ster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    Eye Beam + Demonic was not changed in a way that increases damage, it just stops Soul Rending working on the Eye Beam channel. It used to grant the Eye Beam cast + 5sec (so 7sec), now it's simply 5sec at the end of the cast. It always accounted for time wasted casting/being on GCD since Demonic became a guaranteed proc.
    Could've been bad memory here on my part, but i remember that i could barely use the "procc" of the form you got from eye beam, because the timer was already running while i was still channeling it.
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  10. #10
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    3 min cool down to give everyone in a 8 yard radius a 30% attack/spell dodge
    plus a 1 min cool down to increase dodge by 50% for 10 seconds and reduce all damage taken by 35%
    well also having a 1 min cool down to spawn 5 lesser soul fragments

    and fore talents, demonic appetite allows you to build lesser fragments
    netherwalk if needed
    desperate instincts to allow you to heal well
    soul rending good for healing in burst phases
    demonic, pairing well with soul rending as it allows you to get some health back after using eye beam
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by W1shm4ster View Post
    Could've been bad memory here on my part, but i remember that i could barely use the "procc" of the form you got from eye beam, because the timer was already running while i was still channeling it.
    I know using old logs isn't ideal but you can see here:

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ability=162264

    none of the Demonic activated Meta windows were 5sec, they were all 6.4-7~sec depending on the activator because it added some extra time.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plaguestorm View Post
    3 min cool down to give everyone in a 8 yard radius a 30% attack/spell dodge
    plus a 1 min cool down to increase dodge by 50% for 10 seconds and reduce all damage taken by 35%
    well also having a 1 min cool down to spawn 5 lesser soul fragments

    and fore talents, demonic appetite allows you to build lesser fragments
    netherwalk if needed
    desperate instincts to allow you to heal well
    soul rending good for healing in burst phases
    demonic, pairing well with soul rending as it allows you to get some health back after using eye beam
    What spell are you refering to with that 1 min cooldown to spawn 5 lesser soul fragments? I haven't been able to find a spell or anything doing this so far.
    I litterally just entered the game to look for the spell, but really can't seem to find it. Are you sure you're talking about current patch?
    If there is something i've missed please let me know! This could change everything.
    But i'm pretty sure it's maybe a tank thing? (Venge), We're talking Havoc here

    Tank specc is pretty awesome, and good right now, no doubt there, and a hell lot of healing and survivability. This i have no complaints for, it should perhabs be taking abit down in power ( As all other tanks aswell ).

    Netherwalk removes the normal blur ( replaces ), so it doesn't nessesary makes it "Better" - it's just situational fitting.
    Same for Desperate instincts. Thoose things doesn't increase the survivability, just forms it to fit your playstyle / situation.

    "Desperate insticts to allow you to heal aswell"
    How are we supposed to heal? We got nothing to heal ourself with?

    BUT

    My biggest issue is not that we're not 'strong' enough. I would like to see our survivability be increased, but my main concern lies another place.

    When fighting almost every class. Everyone has something to make them immune to damage or likely.
    In this situation, almost every class has something to do.. Ret pala - Heal. Rogue - Stealth. Etc etc. Everyone has something to improve their situation.
    Demon hunters got squat, nothing nada. We just watch, we stand and watch, waiting. And if the paladin (as example) chooses to attack while in bubble, we can just take the damage.

    We can kite around. That's our thing, but that doesn't help if they just stand there healing them self full up, we can just wait then.
    This feels wrong. There should never be a time, where you got nothing to do, where you just wait. There should always be options to improve your situations if used correctly. Every class got it, except Demon hunter.

    Also, the point of no return.
    If you - as Demon hunter, get to be at 20% hp (or less), it's points of no return.
    Our survivability lies in Leech. Every class can out dps this, which should be the case ofcourse.
    But - As our leech requires us to stay in combat.. This makes it abit rubbish.

    If we get on 20% hp, we know that it is not possible anymore to get as much leech up to keep us up, specially due to the abilities unlocked when you're low on enemies. At this point, if i reach it, i know it's over, way before it is, which i don't think should be the case, there should always be a chance to come back.

    So my 2 main points is:
    * Fix "Nothing to do" problem
    * Fix "Point of no return"

    We got a Topic running on Beta forums, if you have access, you are very welcome to come make a reply (everyone!) or just read it. Thanks in advance.

    Normal Battlenet website and then this after ( Can't post links yet )
    wow/en/forum/topic/17611540991
    Last edited by mmocd753e00ae7; 2016-05-18 at 06:48 PM.

  13. #13
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazoon View Post
    What spell are you refering to with that 1 min cooldown to spawn 5 lesser soul fragments? I haven't been able to find a spell or anything doing this so far.
    I litterally just entered the game to look for the spell, but really can't seem to find it. Are you sure you're talking about current patch?
    If there is something i've missed please let me know! This could change everything.
    But i'm pretty sure it's maybe a tank thing? (Venge), We're talking Havoc here

    Tank specc is pretty awesome, and good right now, no doubt there, and a hell lot of healing and survivability. This i have no complaints for, it should perhabs be taking abit down in power ( As all other tanks aswell ).

    Netherwalk removes the normal blur ( replaces ), so it doesn't nessesary makes it "Better" - it's just situational fitting.
    Same for Desperate instincts. Thoose things doesn't increase the survivability, just forms it to fit your playstyle / situation.

    "Desperate insticts to allow you to heal aswell"
    How are we supposed to heal? We got nothing to heal ourself with?

    BUT

    My biggest issue is not that we're not 'strong' enough. I would like to see our survivability be increased, but my main concern lies another place.

    When fighting almost every class. Everyone has something to make them immune to damage or likely.
    In this situation, almost every class has something to do.. Ret pala - Heal. Rogue - Stealth. Etc etc. Everyone has something to improve their situation.
    Demon hunters got squat, nothing nada. We just watch, we stand and watch, waiting. And if the paladin (as example) chooses to attack while in bubble, we can just take the damage.

    We can kite around. That's our thing, but that doesn't help if they just stand there healing them self full up, we can just wait then.
    This feels wrong. There should never be a time, where you got nothing to do, where you just wait. There should always be options to improve your situations if used correctly. Every class got it, except Demon hunter.

    Also, the point of no return.
    If you - as Demon hunter, get to be at 20% hp (or less), it's points of no return.
    Our survivability lies in Leech. Every class can out dps this, which should be the case ofcourse.
    But - As our leech requires us to stay in combat.. This makes it abit rubbish.

    If we get on 20% hp, we know that it is not possible anymore to get as much leech up to keep us up, specially due to the abilities unlocked when you're low on enemies. At this point, if i reach it, i know it's over, way before it is, which i don't think should be the case, there should always be a chance to come back.

    So my 2 main points is:
    * Fix "Nothing to do" problem
    * Fix "Point of no return"

    We got a Topic running on Beta forums, if you have access, you are very welcome to come make a reply (everyone!) or just read it. Thanks in advance.

    Normal Battlenet website and then this after ( Can't post links yet )
    wow/en/forum/topic/17611540991
    soul carver (look under all on right side http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...n-hunter/havoc )

    sorry misstread desperate instincts, thoughti healed you

    also demon hunters can kite, and have the best 1 min cooldown in the game... 50% dodge increase and 35% damage reduction? like holy shit

    also with demonic and soul rending, you get a 45 second cooldown of 8 seconds of metamorph where all your damage heals you 100% so yeah...

    also stop complaining about "all other specs can just heal"

    rogues will vanish, you will spectral sight and attack them...

    mages cant really "just heal"

    warlocks cant really "just heal" our healing is all leech based too...

    same with hunters, they dont "just heal :theirs is passive

    and also with 100% leech, the class wont be able to out dps it if they are doing the same dps as you in your metamorph form...

    also if your talking about pvp we also have the pvp talents, adding ALOT of surviveabilty, and alos we look at the artifact weapon, that adds even more survivability

    sparring, reinforced armor, hardiness
    glimpse
    Reverse magic, eye of leotheras
    Awaken the demon withen (when paired with gain 100 leech well demon)
    rain from above

    and with artifact you have
    unleashed demons, paired well with 100 leech well demon
    illidari knowlege
    feast on the souls, goes amazing with the demonic/100 leech well demon
    overwhelming power


    again it has amazing surviveability, you jsut need to choose it, and know how to use it
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2016-05-18 at 07:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  14. #14
    Stood in the Fire Vorality's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W1shm4ster View Post
    I wish they would change metamorphosis a bit and split it up.

    25% leech in regular form and then it goes up to the 100% in metamorphosis, this would give us some survivability which we lack outside of the demon form. It feels like every other class has some active self heal or at least a sort of spamable ability which give them back some HP.
    This would be an awesome change, but 25% all time leech MIGHT be slightly OP, 15% or 20% would be better.

    Along with that, everyone is all hyped about DHs having crazy mobility, but we're not that much different than a WW monk and their rolls. In my duels as a DH, I can be kited by just about anything if people play right against me, especially mages/boomkins/hunters. It would be nice if there was a glyph or a talent/pvp talent that canceled fel rush when we hit a target and applied a move slow for 3 seconds. This would make it so much more rewarding to hit fel rush on a target.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Plaguestorm View Post
    soul carver (look under all on right side http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...n-hunter/havoc )

    sorry misstread desperate instincts, thoughti healed you

    also demon hunters can kite, and have the best 1 min cooldown in the game... 50% dodge increase and 35% damage reduction? like holy shit

    also with demonic and soul rending, you get a 45 second cooldown of 8 seconds of metamorph where all your damage heals you 100% so yeah...

    also stop complaining about "all other specs can just heal"

    rogues will vanish, you will spectral sight and attack them...

    mages cant really "just heal"

    warlocks cant really "just heal" our healing is all leech based too...

    same with hunters, they dont "just heal :theirs is passive

    and also with 100% leech, the class wont be able to out dps it if they are doing the same dps as you in your metamorph form...

    also if your talking about pvp we also have the pvp talents, adding ALOT of surviveabilty, and alos we look at the artifact weapon, that adds even more survivability

    sparring, reinforced armor, hardiness
    glimpse
    Reverse magic, eye of leotheras
    Awaken the demon withen (when paired with gain 100 leech well demon)
    rain from above

    and with artifact you have
    unleashed demons, paired well with 100 leech well demon
    illidari knowlege
    feast on the souls, goes amazing with the demonic/100 leech well demon
    overwhelming power


    again it has amazing surviveability, you jsut need to choose it, and know how to use it
    Sure all of these things are amazing, but most of what you said is only good in a 1v1/2v2 scenario. Mages/Locks can't "really heal", but they have amazing CC/base mitigation. DH has a 3 second stun on a 30? second CD and an imprison on a 1min? CD that we have to TALENT for.

    Again, with all the metamorph leech that DH get, yes...it's great in a 1v1 or maybe 2v2, but any good team in 3v3/5v5 is going to immediately CC your meta - not to mention our most important spell Eye Beam can be kicked and it locks us out of everything we can do - and because the animation on eye beam is kind of slow, it's super easy to kick.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Plaguestorm View Post
    soul carver (look under all on right side http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...n-hunter/havoc )

    sorry misstread desperate instincts, thoughti healed you

    also demon hunters can kite, and have the best 1 min cooldown in the game... 50% dodge increase and 35% damage reduction? like holy shit

    also with demonic and soul rending, you get a 45 second cooldown of 8 seconds of metamorph where all your damage heals you 100% so yeah...

    also stop complaining about "all other specs can just heal"

    rogues will vanish, you will spectral sight and attack them...

    mages cant really "just heal"

    warlocks cant really "just heal" our healing is all leech based too...

    same with hunters, they dont "just heal :theirs is passive

    and also with 100% leech, the class wont be able to out dps it if they are doing the same dps as you in your metamorph form...

    also if your talking about pvp we also have the pvp talents, adding ALOT of surviveabilty, and alos we look at the artifact weapon, that adds even more survivability

    sparring, reinforced armor, hardiness
    glimpse
    Reverse magic, eye of leotheras
    Awaken the demon withen (when paired with gain 100 leech well demon)
    rain from above

    and with artifact you have
    unleashed demons, paired well with 100 leech well demon
    illidari knowlege
    feast on the souls, goes amazing with the demonic/100 leech well demon
    overwhelming power


    again it has amazing surviveability, you jsut need to choose it, and know how to use it
    Your post is filled with incorrect statements.

    Ill just touch on a few since I am short on time...

    Soul Carver is a Vengeance (tank ability), not havoc.

    The leech from soul rending is not 100% in pvp. That was nerfed quite some time ago. The pitiful amount that it is in pvp now will do next to nothing for you. Especially when you are CC'd.

    Mages can just heal. All specs, in several ways, tied to blink etc.

    Warlock healing isn't from leech. Yes you get healed when you use certain abilities like Soul Siphon and Drain Life. But this is a set amount of healing that is substantially higher than the tiny bit of leech DH get from Soul Rending. Leech is impossible to balance for DH especially when our only supposed heal is also our giant DPS CD. This is why I have suggested that we receive some sort of on demand set amount heal that has a high fury cost and a medium length CD, akin to Rogue's crimson vial.

    All Melee classes in legion currently have at least 1 on demand heal, with the exception of Demon Hunters.

    You either haven't played a DH in pvp on the beta or are misinformed. It is almost unanimous that DH survivability in PVP (And in questing/soloing) is very low at the moment.

    "Fell deeds awake! Now for wrath; now for ruin, and the red dawn!"

  16. #16
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baelroc View Post
    Your post is filled with incorrect statements.

    Ill just touch on a few since I am short on time...

    Soul Carver is a Vengeance (tank ability), not havoc.

    The leech from soul rending is not 100% in pvp. That was nerfed quite some time ago. The pitiful amount that it is in pvp now will do next to nothing for you. Especially when you are CC'd.

    Mages can just heal. All specs, in several ways, tied to blink etc.

    Warlock healing isn't from leech. Yes you get healed when you use certain abilities like Soul Siphon and Drain Life. But this is a set amount of healing that is substantially higher than the tiny bit of leech DH get from Soul Rending. Leech is impossible to balance for DH especially when our only supposed heal is also our giant DPS CD. This is why I have suggested that we receive some sort of on demand set amount heal that has a high fury cost and a medium length CD, akin to Rogue's crimson vial.

    All Melee classes in legion currently have at least 1 on demand heal, with the exception of Demon Hunters.

    You either haven't played a DH in pvp on the beta or are misinformed. It is almost unanimous that DH survivability in PVP (And in questing/soloing) is very low at the moment.
    demonology and destro wont use drain life really... their main comes from soul leech/soul link

    http://puu.sh/oWKXb/2ff949532f.jpg
    ok, guess wowhead should update their database then : / cause it says sou carver for DH
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Plaguestorm View Post
    demonology and destro wont use drain life really... their main comes from soul leech/soul link

    http://puu.sh/oWKXb/2ff949532f.jpg
    ok, guess wowhead should update their database then : / cause it says sou carver for DH
    Their database is fine, you're on the "all" tab for spells, which is showing "class" and "spec" together. Soul Carver is available for the class, but not for Havoc spec.

  18. #18
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripstop View Post
    Their database is fine, you're on the "all" tab for spells, which is showing "class" and "spec" together. Soul Carver is available for the class, but not for Havoc spec.
    wrong

    the all means spec, and default

    as when you look at vengence the stars are spec specific spells and soul carve is not spec specific

    http://puu.sh/oWP5B/2170651fad.jpg

    aswell none of these other "vengence only" spells show uyp when i do havoc, show all, but soul carver does

    because if soul carver is not havoc... then how is it default, its only vengence...
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Plaguestorm View Post
    wrong

    the all means spec, and default

    as when you look at vengence the stars are spec specific spells and soul carve is not spec specific
    The "all" is clearly aggregating "class" and "spec". (that's what all means in this context)

    Vengeance shows Havoc abilities in the same way and it's the same way with the other classes as well:



    It could probably stand to be refined a bit, since there's really no reason to pull other specs data into either of them, but it's still a beta calculator and probably won't be finalized until closer to release.

  20. #20
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripstop View Post
    The "all" is clearly aggregating "class" and "spec". (that's what all means in this context)

    Vengeance shows Havoc abilities in the same way and it's the same way with the other classes as well:



    It could probably stand to be refined a bit, since there's really no reason to pull other specs data into either of them, but it's still a beta calculator and probably won't be finalized until closer to release.


    ahh ok i was going off the stars showing "X spec only" but alot of the X spec only spells are not labled as X spec only, meaning they are randomyl in class, not in spec
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