You want equality in the armed services? Well here you go.

[Kathandira]

You're discussing equality - her going up against a male - but you're ignoring the fact that majority of females are smaller than males and weaker. To help these women prepare for such a real altercation, they should be trained more in taking down a larger opponent.

Take out the whole "equality" debate, and just ensure our Military personnel are properly traiend - not equally. The sexes aren't physically equal.

I've seen this discussed as well. Having different types of training for women, or longer training to get them to the same physical standard as men.

I wouldn't exactly be against the idea of doubling the training for women to get them to meet the same requirements as men. If the current training isn't enough, then give them extra training, but keep the same standards. This would however, prolong their training, and they wouldn't be able to be deployed for much longer than men.

[AlphaOut]

You're discussing equality - her going up against a male - but you're ignoring the fact that majority of females are smaller than males and weaker. To help these women prepare for such a real altercation, they should be trained more in taking down a larger opponent.

Take out the whole "equality" debate, and just ensure our Military personnel are properly traiend - not equally. The sexes aren't physically equal.

They do train for that during BCT, but it's up to their unit they go to to refine it. Similarly, they do male vs male, but it's usually a large male vs a small one. From clinch drills to ground fighting tactics. But the general public misunderstands what basic training actually is. It turns you into a soldier, but there isn't enough time in a cycle to make anyone a master at everything. We get to our unit and training goes from there. If you have a fail chain of command, that is beyond any new soldiers problem.

We can talk about training to standard etc, but the real training you get is from your actual unit after you've graduated. There's plenty of schools to put in for as well. Ranger, airborne, air assault, pathfinder, sere, the list goes on. Real training value comes from your leadership after you are already at a unit. And entry level BCT won't change much. There's already a shortage of drill sergeants.

[Deleted]

The point I was making is that these videos are pointless, since they pose zero evidence for anything.
You could enlist the entire military into a pugil sticks competition, and in the end you're left with 1 single worth it soldier lol
All others are too weak, because they've lost.

All hail Captain America!

[Drekker17]

Women should be pilots and snipers. Some studies said women are calmer pilots, like helicopter pilots specifically and several women in my family were snipers because many believed in Vietnam that a woman wouldn't hesitate to kill someone from far away.

If women are in infantry squads they should have same standards as men.

[Yvaelle]

I don't see the problem. On that same day, in that same ring of dudes (and girl) tackling each other with sticks (I must be missing the point of the exercise) - hundreds of dudes got thrown over and over. That girl is about half the weight of the dude who hit her, which is fine (life isn't fair) - but any dude you put in that ring who is half their opponents mass isn't going to be able to oppose a bull rush like that.

Hitting her like that is perfectly fine. Pretending that because she got hit she's not qualified is bullshit - everybody gets hit. What, then, is the point of this thread?

Are we saying anybody who gets knocked down during basic training is disqualified? I didn't take you guys for such pacifists - because it'd be hard to have wars when nobody can qualify for the military (not getting knocked down).

The point of the exercise is, if anything, to take a hit from a bigger opponent and learn to either 1) dodge, 2) deflect, 3) strike first, 4) get back up. She'll learn the intended lesson far better being smaller, than the big dude will learn knocking everyone over all day - and that's a good thing - because if ever the big dude gets into CQC with an even bigger dude, he won't have experience fighting from the inferior position.

[Damajin]

Incoming Russian world domination.


No, nowadays we have a million people dying in a war.
So much better..

I vote, so yeah, I do have a say and sway over it

There's no million people dying in a single days time, by any stretch of the imagination. Furthermore if we weren't engaged in the type of warfare that actually allows it to continue on at a steady pace so that continual profits can be made for the arms manufacturers you'd find overall war even less casualty prone than it is. Prolonged warfare and destabilizing occupation result in those escalating amounts of deaths, not the actual tools nor soldiers engaged in fighting.

Hahaha, thinking your vote actually impacts your military. That's amusing. Keep drinking the koolaid.

[Polyxo]

As a more serious post, the major hard difference between men and women is size, and really nothing else. There are minor differences in body composition (generally <10%).

There are also major, though correctable differences in physicality (as in attitude towards rough physical contact), and physical exertion.

I would entirely agree with those that say that infantry (and military standards at large) should be standard across all genders. I see no reason why any reasonably fit woman who takes being functionally fit seriously can't do the male military fitness standards, barring some physical disability. In order for women to get in the proper shape to be a serious infantryman, general women's fitness standards (in society at large) need to change, as is the image of the generally fit women's body. People are still extremely muscle-averse when it comes to women, and it causes even professional athletes to shy away from pushing strength training too hard for fear of looking 'mannish'. So you'll either have to change that, or have women come in much more 'ready' to deal with changing physically and pushing themselves than most currently are.

As far as the video in question goes, there's a lot going on. The guy is significantly larger, is moving forward, and the girl has terrible body positioning. Replace her with a guy the same size in the same situation, and the exact same thing happens. It's like having a defensive back try to do an Oklahoma drill against a guard and a back while standing still. All we know from the video is "if you're big, and running forward, you'll probably run over someone smaller who is stationary".

- - - Updated - - -

Women should be pilots and snipers. Some studies said women are calmer pilots, like helicopter pilots specifically and several women in my family were snipers because many believed in Vietnam that a woman wouldn't hesitate to kill someone from far away.

If women are in infantry squads they should have same standards as men.

There is some minor evidence that most women might be better predisposed to precision shooting (sniping) than men, due to better average fine motor controls. Not me though, my fine motor coordination is lightspeed awful.

[Deleted]

So...what does fighting with a stick have to do with shooting a rifle? Is this the middle ages?

Those soldiers who train to build muscles are so hilarious. Muscles can't stop bullets, muscles won't make you shoot more accurate, and the odds the enemy will come and fight them with their fists is nearing negative infinity.

[Polyxo]

The point of the exercise is, if anything, to take a hit from a bigger opponent and learn to either 1) dodge, 2) deflect, 3) strike first, 4) get back up. She'll learn the intended lesson far better being smaller, than the big dude will learn knocking everyone over all day - and that's a good thing - because if ever the big dude gets into CQC with an even bigger dude, he won't have experience fighting from the inferior position.

5) Go low.

[Kellhound]

So long as the women have to conform to the exact same physical standards as the men (and I do NOT mean by lowering it to the current female standards) and their presence does not increase the logistic load or decrease the combat effectiveness of the unit, I have no issue with female combat troops.

[Damajin]

I don't see the problem. On that same day, in that same ring of dudes (and girl) tackling each other with sticks (I must be missing the point of the exercise) - hundreds of dudes got thrown over and over. That girl is about half the weight of the dude who hit her, which is fine (life isn't fair) - but any dude you put in that ring who is half their opponents mass isn't going to be able to oppose a bull rush like that.

Hitting her like that is perfectly fine. Pretending that because she got hit she's not qualified is bullshit - everybody gets hit. What, then, is the point of this thread?

Are we saying anybody who gets knocked down during basic training is disqualified? I didn't take you guys for such pacifists - because it'd be hard to have wars when nobody can qualify for the military (not getting knocked down).

The point of the exercise is, if anything, to take a hit from a bigger opponent and learn to either 1) dodge, 2) deflect, 3) strike first, 4) get back up. She'll learn the intended lesson far better being smaller, than the big dude will learn knocking everyone over all day - and that's a good thing - because if ever the big dude gets into CQC with an even bigger dude, he won't have experience fighting from the inferior position.

The point of the drill is to teach close quarters hand to hand combat and in an era where people are shooting at range train the body, mind and spirit to deal with in your face immediate physical threats which involve different skills and mindsets than if you just practiced marksmanship all day. There's no guarantee she'll learn the intended lessons faster of course and that's the point, to force the soldier to adapt quickly or 'die' in combat.

The big guy doesn't necessarily need experience fighting from the inferior position as long as he's comfortable fighting close quarters overall, that's the benefit of being strong. If he was fighting someone like the Mountain from GoT maybe I'd agree but that's not a regular thing. The small female or even naturally small male is going to have to learn how to fight from the inferior position because that's what they'll be doing in general, it won't be something out of the ordinary.

[Deleted]

How dare you show proof that women can't stand their ground against males! Just look at the cynical responses of the wishful thinkers on the first page alone. Equality is gonna happen no matter the consequences for the armed forces. In the name of entitlement.

[Adam Jensen]

How dare you show proof that women can't stand their ground against males! Just look at the cynical responses of the wishful thinkers on the first page alone. Equality is gonna happen no matter the consequences for the armed forces. In the name of entitlement.

Another straw man. Equality is not allowing all women into combat roles. Equality is allowing all women opportunity to try.

[PACOX]

Was that fight supposed to prove something?

And to be honest, she probably would've had a chance if she played towards her strengths and not have tried to take the guy head on like. At least not after the first round once she knew his tactics. She sucked at playing the game.

A boxer can out box any MMA fighter. A MMA fighter would destroy any boxer in the cage. Two different sports, two different sets of rules, neither are random street fights where the circumstances would be completely different.

[Polyxo]

Was that fight supposed to prove something?

And to be honest, she probably would've had a chance if she played towards her strengths and not have tried to take the guy head on like. At least not after the first round once she knew his tactics. She sucked at playing the game.

A boxer can out box any MMA fighter. A MMA fighter would destroy any boxer in the cage. Two different sports, two different sets of rules, neither are random street fights where the circumstances would be completely different.

She pretty visibly didn't know what she was doing, and not like in a 'she wasn't trained in pugil stick fighting' not knowing what she was doing. I mean in a 'she's pretty awkward about physical contact' kind of state. She moves towards the center, and then stop as the guy charges and kind of rocks up on her toes, but leans back. She was pretty visibly shying away from the shot, in the worst possible way.

Pugil stick fights aren't really to teach all that much. They're more just 'hardening' drills, where you're just getting people used to hitting and being hit. It's like the Oklahoma drill, which is sort of a stack/shed and block following drill, but it's really just about getting used to hitting and being hit when you're still in camp mode.

[TITAN308]

Another straw man. Equality is not allowing all women into combat roles. Equality is allowing all women opportunity to try.

This is really a somewhat disingenuous statement. We both know if this was true, after so many women get booted out then the cries of discrimination will follow.

The result is going to end up the same either way.

[noidentity]

So...what does fighting with a stick have to do with shooting a rifle? Is this the middle ages?

Those soldiers who train to build muscles are so hilarious. Muscles can't stop bullets, muscles won't make you shoot more accurate, and the odds the enemy will come and fight them with their fists is nearing negative infinity.

Bayonet training for close quarter combat.

Hence why one side is black and the other is red.

[The Stormbringer]

Give up.

there has literally been studies done that show that combat units perform worse overall with mixed sexes.

I've known several soldiers who have seen both brothers and sisters die infront of them, and which affects them worse? the women. they can't even explain it themselves. it's a subconcious thing.

either way, I do not believe in mixed units, if women want to serve/be frontline troops. make a unit OF women. tests show that men perform lower in the mixed units. (the same men then tested higher when in male units.)

now I await some sissy to come in and tell me that the results are biased, and the military is out to get the wimmenz etc etc.. despite a complete lack of evidence.

That just tells me that we prioritize the lives of women more than men, and that's something that needs to be changed. They aren't weak little flowers that need to be coddled and protected. If a woman can pass the tests and the training and show she's combat ready and capable in the field, then that's all there should be to it. If she isn't, then she should be in a different position. Infantry is a demanding, challenging, and sometimes dehumanizing role. If we as a society are going to be throwing lives at a problem, or allowing our brave soldiers to sacrifice themselves to defend us, then we'd better damn well accept that MEN aren't the only ones who will wind up dead.

It's not going to be easy, but equality isn't about what's easy; it's about rising above our ingrained behaviors and animal disposition to say that we have come far enough that these things won't hold us back anymore.

I don't think it's biased our 'out to get wimmenz', I just think it's something that needs to change.

This is really a somewhat disingenuous statement. We both know if this was true, after so many women get booted out then the cries of discrimination will follow.

The result is going to end up the same either way.

And I say if they're making cries of discrimination, then you offer to let them publicly take the tests again. In cases where there is actual discrimination, we'll know if they manage to pass the tests. In cases where there isn't, well, you'll know when they fail or decline.

[the game]

Damn he planted that chick.

[AlphaOut]

So...what does fighting with a stick have to do with shooting a rifle? Is this the middle ages?

Those soldiers who train to build muscles are so hilarious. Muscles can't stop bullets, muscles won't make you shoot more accurate, and the odds the enemy will come and fight them with their fists is nearing negative infinity.

Yeah because who needs muscles when you have to drag or carry a 175lb soldier who weighs 260lbs in full kit to safety? Who needs muscles when the enemy attacks your COP at night and you need to relocate a .50 cal with tripod to the other side to defend? Who needs muscles to carry boxes upon boxes of ammo to resupply areas of the COP? Yeah building muscles is super hilarious for soldiers to do.

- - - Updated - - -

She pretty visibly didn't know what she was doing, and not like in a 'she wasn't trained in pugil stick fighting' not knowing what she was doing. I mean in a 'she's pretty awkward about physical contact' kind of state. She moves towards the center, and then stop as the guy charges and kind of rocks up on her toes, but leans back. She was pretty visibly shying away from the shot, in the worst possible way.

Pugil stick fights aren't really to teach all that much. They're more just 'hardening' drills, where you're just getting people used to hitting and being hit. It's like the Oklahoma drill, which is sort of a stack/shed and block following drill, but it's really just about getting used to hitting and being hit when you're still in camp mode.

No its to train basic bayonet tasks and movements. But privates are so silly they just wind up swinging away. She didn't look anymore awkward than many many many other privates that's gone through basic. It is what it is. Although drill sergeants tend to do unfair pairings at the end for their own entertainment. As you can see why.