I think Legion's loot system is going to be its downfall.

[primalmatter]

In WoW you replace gear, learn new spells, and (in legion) gain artifact power as you advance in level.

And I'm not selling anything I'm telling you that none of those games you've mentioned support this notion of "effort=reward". You get all the same rewards whether you playing on the hardest difficulty available or the easiest -- hell, you can switch your difficulties in the middle of an encounter with zero repercussions, so if the game ever does prove challenging you've got the option to immediately remove it and mindlessly mash your way to victory. Trying to hold any of these 3 games up as those which reward skill and effort where "the best players have the best gear" is the only bullshit I smell here.

Unless the first level is as easy as the last you really haven't made the point you wanted.

Games all use a linear progression system. WoW disguises this with different modes but it serves the same function...

You really seem to be grasping at straws at this point.

[nazrakin]

Unless the first level is as easy as the last you really haven't made the point you wanted.

Games all use a linear progression system. WoW disguises this with different modes but it serves the same function...

You really seem to be grasping at straws at this point.

Actually, Witcher and Skyrim are both notorious for having regressive difficulty curves. As far as the "straw grasping" is concerned, I'm not the one trying to string together half assed comparisons between some single player RPGs and a MMO. Im just telling you why its dumb... I dont expect you to accept that but I decided to try anyway.

[Polarthief]

Made even worse, only Raiders will have the best gear because nothing else will drop Tier Bonuses and the best trinkets, so not only will pugs have outrageous iLvl requirements, but unless you have set bonuses and trinkets, you're likely to do poorly anyways, which really blows.

I wish they'd either remove tier bonuses or make another way for you to obtain them.

[nekobaka]

Nothing turns off a player (my opinion) than seeing a raid group looking for insane ilvls to do content that doesn't require that level of gear...or if the gear that person would needs would be for that difficulty in the first place.

Except with ease of higher level gear available groups would do just that. Depending on how the drop rates work out along with other gear catch up this system might be even more punishing to time limited players and those that take breaks.

Having things to do when its not raid night that progress player power is good.

One of the main ideas about legion I am liking. Counter to the raid or die filth Watcher had been pushing prior.

[Daffan]

who cares about reward, if you are better than the plebs you can do 50k more dps while being 10 ilvls lower. it will be no different in Legion, let the noobs have their free gear, they still suck. whoring the DPS meter is the only reward I need.

Giving people free gear creates the problem where nobody does the old content and they get bored.

It has nothing to do with DPS or Epeen

[Deleted]

I don't have Beta access so I'd like to know where this gear stands in pre-tier content. Normal/HC/Mythic ilvl?

[Redroniksre]

Challenging solo content requires as much work as the warlock fire quest or a legendary quest.. its not likely they will be able to keep up that for every class. Never mind tanking and healing specs would need their own encounters..

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The game now was made for casual players...

Never before has so much of a expansions resources gone towards them nor have the rewards ever been better (725 dungeon gear says hello)

Wod was the expansion for casuals it isn't a surprise to me it brought in casual profits.

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Mythic raid ilv gear from dungeons wasn't enough in wod?

Challenging solo content does not necessarily have to be combat only either. But yes resources would have to be used for it but i think it would be a wise investment, just like the new Mythic + dungeons. Also the game was always made for...casuals. WoD was the least casual friendly expansion because it had no depth to anything, only raiding was done well.

[Krom2040]

Remember back in when high level raiders were 100 ilvls above non-raiders, doing 4x the damage and with no catch-up mechanisms or gearing alternatives in sight?

Ah yes, those were the days!!

[Glorious Leader]

Having things to do when its not raid night that progress player power is good.

I agree. When they aren't rng based...or for that matter mad skilzzz based.

[primalmatter]

Challenging solo content does not necessarily have to be combat only either. But yes resources would have to be used for it but i think it would be a wise investment, just like the new Mythic + dungeons. Also the game was always made for...casuals. WoD was the least casual friendly expansion because it had no depth to anything, only raiding was done well.

Well WoD was actually the most casual aimed expac to date... The whole no depth thing is part of that...

Regardless I can't see solo content working well. At best they might be able to remake MoP scenarios but those really were well kinda crap. It takes a long time to tune something as well as the legendary instanced quests and the warlock green fire quest. Unless they really up production to nearly twice or thrice what they have been capable in the past I just can't see it as feasible.

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I agree. When they aren't rng based...or for that matter mad skilzzz based.

Then they need to be extremely long time gates...

I just don't grasp the desire to make all the content designed for you to be trivialized. What purpose does it serve?

[PrairieChicken]

That is one of the reasons why I will stay away from Legion. People might like world of diablo, maybe, but not me.

And I think Legion will be still raid or die because they will make sure non-raid progressions are gimped in many ways

[Redroniksre]

Well WoD was actually the most casual aimed expac to date... The whole no depth thing is part of that...

Regardless I can't see solo content working well. At best they might be able to remake MoP scenarios but those really were well kinda crap. It takes a long time to tune something as well as the legendary instanced quests and the warlock green fire quest. Unless they really up production to nearly twice or thrice what they have been capable in the past I just can't see it as feasible.

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Then they need to be extremely long time gates...

I just don't grasp the desire to make all the content designed for you to be trivialized. What purpose does it serve?

I don't think you understand the playerbase you are talking about. Casuals do not want mindless content that rewards them. The problem is raids, from the perspective of an average raider, are not hard. The only thing that makes it harder is the need for a bunch of other people. But that part isn't even handled by average joe raider, it is handled by the raid leader. So technically, only the raid leader should get better gear because average joe just needs to follow his rotation (solo play) and listen for when to pop cooldowns (whoopie).

I consider myself casual but i raid occasionally on normal, and heroic. I simply do not want to commit to a schedule, and i prefer smaller group play than larger. I like hard content, but i like hard content that i can do when i feel like it, not having to wait on another 19 people.

[primalmatter]

I don't think you understand the playerbase you are talking about. Casuals do not want mindless content that rewards them. The problem is raids, from the perspective of an average raider, are not hard. The only thing that makes it harder is the need for a bunch of other people. But that part isn't even handled by average joe raider, it is handled by the raid leader. So technically, only the raid leader should get better gear because average joe just needs to follow his rotation (solo play) and listen for when to pop cooldowns (whoopie).

I consider myself casual but i raid occasionally on normal, and heroic. I simply do not want to commit to a schedule, and i prefer smaller group play than larger. I like hard content, but i like hard content that i can do when i feel like it, not having to wait on another 19 people.

Then run mythic + or find a new game?

It confounds me why casual players think that after a decade things are going to fundamentally change within the game. From what limited contact I have had with "casual" players if they think normal is beneath them I suspect many overestimate themselves by a large margin.

[kamuimac]

Actually, Witcher and Skyrim are both notorious for having regressive difficulty curves. As far as the "straw grasping" is concerned, I'm not the one trying to string together half assed comparisons between some single player RPGs and a MMO. Im just telling you why its dumb... I dont expect you to accept that but I decided to try anyway.

i just love how you refer to 2 of rpg which has been super popular and got amazing reviews unlike last few expansions of wow as "some ' games.

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That is one of the reasons why I will stay away from Legion. People might like world of diablo, maybe, but not me.

and maybe this will be a good thing - maybe what this game need is new players who will bring in the "fun " into world not burned out veterans

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Then run mythic + or find a new game?

It confounds me why casual players think that after a decade things are going to fundamentally change within the game. From what limited contact I have had with "casual" players if they think normal is beneath them I suspect many overestimate themselves by a large margin.

things has been constantly changing in wow for last 10 years - from casual point of view WoD was the one expansion that deply regressed those changes and players vote with their wallets - and when 3/4 of them left the game blizzard has best proof that old ways of doin stuff can never return.

[Riistov]

I expect these rates are roughly going to remain unchanged.. They reflect the current drop raids in WoDs mythic dungeons fairly well...

Drop rates are being inflated for the point of testing. They always are and they always will be.

Not sure why you're making such a big deal about this.

[PrairieChicken]

and maybe this will be a good thing - maybe what this game need is new players who will bring in the "fun " into world not burned out veterans

I feel like the world of diablocraft is aimed at China

[Redroniksre]

Then run mythic + or find a new game?

It confounds me why casual players think that after a decade things are going to fundamentally change within the game. From what limited contact I have had with "casual" players if they think normal is beneath them I suspect many overestimate themselves by a large margin.

Because either the game changes or it dies? Have you never run a business before? The demographic for WoW is constantly changing, the industry is constantly changing and if WoW doesn't keep up with that then it dies, would you rather it die then open up its gameplay for all to enjoy rather than a tiny minority?

[primalmatter]

Because either the game changes or it dies? Have you never run a business before? The demographic for WoW is constantly changing, the industry is constantly changing and if WoW doesn't keep up with that then it dies, would you rather it die then open up its gameplay for all to enjoy rather than a tiny minority?

The demographic for wow hasn't changed.

They just tried to appeal to people who don't enjoy mmos and well WoD.

Games can survive with the right audience. There are countless examples a premium product that is pay to play can not compete with free to play when it comes to appealing to everyone.

[Mafic]

Remember back in when high level raiders were 100 ilvls above non-raiders, doing 4x the damage and with no catch-up mechanisms or gearing alternatives in sight?

Ah yes, those were the days!!

When was this? In BC top of the line epics were hard to obtain but blues were not gimped.

[Redroniksre]

The demographic for wow hasn't changed.

They just tried to appeal to people who don't enjoy mmos and well WoD.

Games can survive with the right audience. There are countless examples a premium product that is pay to play can not compete with free to play when it comes to appealing to everyone.

The demographic has changed, MMO as a genre is dying out and people are preferring to play single player games now and lobby based multiplayer. Also in favor of content that can be done on your own time and half MMO's (eg. Destiny). Raid or die does not work anymore, people want more and WoD was definitely not their attempt to appeal, you could not get any good gear from outside raiding, and the content was lackluster, yet that means casual for you?