[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Cooper]

Now, frankly, I think calling anything actionable on the Alpha/Beta servers outside of things that are borderline illegal is an incredibly unhealthy precedent to set.

I meant if it goes live. Test all you want; that's what it is there for. Exploiting it on live is a totally different story.

[Warstar]

Harder to have a boss twitch and miss eye beam than RoTI though That's why I'll probably pick it up after eye beam increase

Unless the boss has a charge or teleport mechanic not really anymore. Previous version of FotI I'd agree with you since it was a longer duration but now it goes pretty damn fast.

@wordup how much does Anguish effect taking Blind Fury for AoE? Didn't have it on alpha with my PvE DH just got to play with it with a PvP character and with those stats it was adding just under 50k damage per mob. So would the higher usage of Fel Rush keep Fel Mastery higher with the bonus damage from that and the bonus fury? I feel like on a fight that has waves of mobs coming on at a longer duration that matches up with EB that the burst from BF + Anguish would be more beneficial. And in the case of a dungeon where you kill a pack of mobs and then have down time letting EB come back up would that make it better? Or would sticking with Fel Mastery still be the better over all choice?

[Cooper]

If it's in the game, it's an available tool. You not liking it doesn't make it any different. You not wanting to utilize them is fine: form your group where you can only do things Cooper approves of. Declaring that the game should revolve around Cooper Approved (TM) methods is, frankly, disgusting.

"I can do a thing, therefore it is an available tool, therefore it is okay to do."

"I can exploit this boss for an easy kill, therefore it is an available tool, so it is okay to do."

"I can clone dinosaurs, therefore it is an available tool, therefore it is okay to clone dinosaurs."

"I can pirate this movie, therefore it is an available tool, therefore it is okay to do."

Botting is in the game. Duping may or may not be in the game. Win trading is in the game. Or was, at any rate. That doesn't make them okay to do.

Just because one CAN do a thing, does not make doing that thing morally acceptable, and trying to rationalize doing so with weasel words like "available tools" just makes it even more base.

[Vanyali]

"I can do a thing, therefore it's an available tool, therefore it is okay to do."

"I can exploit this boss for an easy kill, therefore it is an available tool, so it's okay to do."

"I can clone dinosaurs, therefore it's an available tool, therefore it is okay to clone dinosaurs."

"I can pirate this movie, therefore it's an available tool, therefore it is okay to do."

Botting is in the game. Duping may or may not be in the game. Win trading is in the game. Or was, at any rate.

Just because one CAN do a thing, does not make doing that thing morally acceptable, and trying to rationalize doing so with weasel words like "available tools" just makes it even more base.

Botting and duping aren't in the game, actually. You're not given the tools to do either of those. Nor to win trade, as you're required to queue against specific people.

Posting fallacious arguments isn't helping your case, at all. Unless, of course, you call any strategy an exploit because it makes a bos an easy kill, eh? Because that's the level you're at.

[Factor]

While I'm not a fan of the personal attacks from either side or the hyperbolic vitriol, I do have to agree that the Fel Rush cancel must be unintended and can't see Bliz supporting that usage. Its not the fact that it leaves you in place its that the rush still goes forward unimpeded by walls. The PVP implications scream exploit. People will lose their minds the first time this is used at some E Sports event.

Is this how Chi Torpedo is currently? Honestly asking, I've never played a monk. If it has the same effect I think that speaks volumes as to how Bliz will action people using that particular cancel.

That being said, unless there is a blue post on its status I will 100% use it while raiding. Nothing is illegal until a law is made forbidding it.

[Vanyali]

While I'm not a fan of the personal attacks from either side or the hyperbolic vitriol, I do have to agree that the Fel Rush cancel must be unintended and can't see Bliz supporting that usage. Its not the fact that it leaves you in place its that the rush still goes forward unimpeded by walls. The PVP implications scream exploit. People will lose their minds the first time this is used at some E Sports event.

Is this how Chi Torpedo is currently? Honestly asking, I've never played a monk. If it has the same effect I think that speaks volumes as to how Bliz will action people using that particular cancel.

That being said, unless there is a blue post on its status I will 100% use it while raiding. Nothing is illegal until a law is made forbidding it.

Fel Rush is the one I do see as an exploit.. because you're actively damaging something without moving. Which is the crucial difference between VR and Fel Rush - cancellation VR changes your momentum only, cancelling fel rush gives you an unintended attack method (if you're wondering.. yes, you can sit behind a rock / beneath someone and kill them while they can do nothing if you trap them there).

[Cooper]

That being said, unless there is a blue post on its status I will 100% use it while raiding. Nothing is illegal until a law is made forbidding it.

Just because something isn't illegal, doesn't make it morally right.

[bloodkraven]

Why is morality being brought into this conversation again?

[Cooper]

Why is morality being brought into this conversation again?

Because we live in a sick, narcissistic society where people don't care about anything but what benefits themselves.

[bloodkraven]

Because we live in a sick, narcissistic society where people don't care about anything but what benefits themselves.

I'm sorry animation cancelling bothers you so much that you have to compare it to that

[Delimit]

While I'm not a fan of the personal attacks from either side or the hyperbolic vitriol, I do have to agree that the Fel Rush cancel must be unintended and can't see Bliz supporting that usage. Its not the fact that it leaves you in place its that the rush still goes forward unimpeded by walls. The PVP implications scream exploit. People will lose their minds the first time this is used at some E Sports event.

Is this how Chi Torpedo is currently? Honestly asking, I've never played a monk. If it has the same effect I think that speaks volumes as to how Bliz will action people using that particular cancel.

That being said, unless there is a blue post on its status I will 100% use it while raiding. Nothing is illegal until a law is made forbidding it.

Blizzard isn't doing anything to people jump cancelling Chi Torp. It's existed as long as the talent has existed, but only became noticeable when the talent started being used for burst damage. Basically, anyone who uses ChiTorp for the damage, is likely also jump/rolling to limit travel distance.

[Factor]

Blizzard isn't doing anything to people jump cancelling Chi Torp. It's existed as long as the talent has existed, but only became noticeable when the talent started being used for burst damage. Basically, anyone who uses ChiTorp for the damage, is also jump/rolling.

So the cancel just Torpedoes in place and does the AOE at the end? Doesn't say, go through a pillar in an arena?

[Cooper]

I'm sorry animation cancelling bothers you so much that you have to compare it to that

It's not a comparison. It's a symptom. People want to be able to - and have declared their intention to - animation cancel because they want the DPS boost, ignoring the fact that it is an unintended exploit that Blizzard has been trying to squash and clearly runs counter to the spirit of the abilities and talents.

Not only are people oblivious to the fact that just because one CAN do a thing, doesn't mean they SHOULD do a thing, they are rationalizing it by saying if Blizzard is unsuccessful in making Animation Canceling impossible, then it is an "available tool"; they have abandoned all concepts of sportsmanship or personal responsibility.

It is the most base form of "I want this, therefore I will rationalize it any way I can."

[Warstar]

Botting and duping aren't in the game, actually. You're not given the tools to do either of those. Nor to win trade, as you're required to queue against specific people.

Posting fallacious arguments isn't helping your case, at all. Unless, of course, you call any strategy an exploit because it makes a bos an easy kill, eh? Because that's the level you're at.

Stop feeding the trolls. You're bad at this both here and the official forums!

[wordup]

@wordup how much does Anguish effect taking Blind Fury for AoE? Didn't have it on alpha with my PvE DH just got to play with it with a PvP character and with those stats it was adding just under 50k damage per mob. So would the higher usage of Fel Rush keep Fel Mastery higher with the bonus damage from that and the bonus fury? I feel like on a fight that has waves of mobs coming on at a longer duration that matches up with EB that the burst from BF + Anguish would be more beneficial. And in the case of a dungeon where you kill a pack of mobs and then have down time letting EB come back up would that make it better? Or would sticking with Fel Mastery still be the better over all choice?

Anguish is relatively weak, but Blind Fury amps it by exactly 50% same as the increase to Eye Beam damage. It's possible with a full artifact using Blind Fury for a couple of fights just to punish the very predictable waves of adds that are quite consistent (kind of similar to say, Xhul imps on some encounters in NH) would be really useful. There is however the fringe issue that adds can die before Anguish expires and as such you don't get the damage.

[Vanyali]

Stop feeding the trolls. You're bad at this both here and the official forums!

I can't help myself

[Delimit]

So the cancel just Torpedoes in place and does the AOE at the end? Doesn't say, go through a pillar in an arena?

Nah, it just limits the range of how far it takes you since part of the distance is wasted in jump animation. It's a mobility talent to extend roll's range at it's base, (and what it gets turned back into for Legion) that just also happens to damage/heal anything it travels through. Essentially you're just burning off some distance of the travel by jumping first so that you can reverse directions with it and blast back through the enemy. It doesn't do any fancy stuff like going through objects. About the fanciest thing it does it throw you off Iskar's platform while nuking adds with it, or take you off of Mythic Archi platform when you forget to untalent it.

[Qlix]

"Tools available." More weasel words.

Blizzard has explicitly indicated animation canceling is unwanted in their game and has been trying to quash it and you call it an "available tool" because they can't figure out how to do so.

Disgusting.

Do you use addons or macros? Im gonna guess the answer is yes. In which case everything you said previously and presently is void. Some of the things I can do with a macro or an addon or the combination of the 2 is pretty amazing and probably not intended either.

How bout cast cancel? Do you cast cancel to conserve mana or move out of fire (coincidentally if you perfect it, based on latency, you can still cast and move - exploitative)? The only part of this that is exploitative is the fel rush fire still doing damage to shit behind walls.

Dont turn a mechanics conversation into a debate about morality. Your version of it doesn't coincide with everyone elses.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

There's something to be said that the discussion has gone so downhill since Beta opened, especially on the official forums.

Kudos to everyone (except @Vanyali, he's deserving of the angriest cows in his mailbox) who's been able to let their cool heads prevail in the onslaught of toxic posters that have flooded since the Beta gates have opened. The discussion was able to be constructively critical before people showed up and accused people who've been testing since early alpha of "clearly not having much experience with Havoc" or "being an authority" or some shit like that.

Kudos to dudes being objective and talking to non-testers and giving their honest opinions during the testing process and even going so far as to take feedback from non-testers to the official forums for those of us who can't post there (big kudos to @Vanyali here).

I fucking love you guys. If not for all the discussions we've had here, i probably wouldn't be nearly as invested in the class as i thought i'd ever be.

[Qlix]

I fucking love you guys. If not for all the discussions we've had here, i probably wouldn't be nearly as invested in the class as i thought i'd ever be.

Yeah, that.