[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Aeluron Lightsong]

That and they don't really change things during expansions anymore if there's a problem. That said, it's more likely things will change. The big surge of players in beta has really shown a lot of discontent(Class design anyways). I mean it's a bit jarring to see so much discontent on classes.

[Ulthane]

It's sort of a both issue. On the one hand, the actual amount of absorb is very low. I don't know that it even is as good as a priest shield, yet it has a pretty hefty cooldown. The other issue is, as I listed, that a pretty large % of classes can remove it. Not every team has one of those 4, but a pretty high % do given that 2 of them are healers (and we have seen priests and mages competitive in basically every season ever).

Same thing goes with Freedom, as Storm said. Our special snowflake utilities are not special because they can be easily removed and with no penalty to the remover. Here's kind of the list of issues with that:

SoV CD too long, potency too low, dispel-able
BoP dispel-able, long CD
Freedom dispel-able, high CD if you consider we have no "run fast" default skills; our main utility is -not- being slow

We never really have had to worry about Freedom being on a longer CD because, EVERY EXPANSION except this one, from Classic till WoD, we have had either...

A. Cleanse (removes magical slows) or...
B. Emancipate (removes all slows)

In Legion we have neither. One of our most iconic self utilities, annoying as it was sometimes to spam, was the ability to remove roots and snares consistently, excepting physical slows (until Emancipate anyway).

Quite a few patches ago I thought Freedom was going to be a 15 second CD. That sounded pretty good, because we'd be able to use it about as often as Charge. But instead it's still 25.

Unfortunately while many of us are making negative predictions, it's going to suck basically "living those predictions out" if Blizzard doesn't have the foresight or concern to address problems before we start living it.

So would you say the concept that was brought up before about it having a shorter CD and stronger absorb is a thing now?

How about this.

-AP scaling buffed tremendously, let's say 1000% just for ballpark.
-CD reduced to 30 seconds.
-Absorb lasts 10 - 15 seconds.
-Deflection trait now increases absorb instead of lowering cooldown.

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Also dispel immune?

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Think how much damage execution sentence does but now instead an absorb.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I feel it needs to be mentioned SoV has Meteor mechanic, meaning it does miniscule damage in group PvP and might feth up CC's.

[Teleros]

It's sort of a both issue. On the one hand, the actual amount of absorb is very low. I don't know that it even is as good as a priest shield, yet it has a pretty hefty cooldown.

Shield of Vengeance is 1,000% AP, Power Word: Shield for Disc priests is 500% SP. Both can be dispelled. Cooldown for SoV is 2mins by default, down to 90secs with a 3-rank artefact trait. PW:S is 7.5sec CD, and has Weakened Soul for 15secs. PW:S gets +15% absorb amount via a 3-rank artefact trait too.

[Bolt66]

@Bolt66 spot on with that post you just did.

Thanks, I was just trying to back up Ruiizu's point there. I'm hoping that even the people who truly like the J window will recognize that it doesn't mesh well with everything else that's currently going on.

@Nuin got ya.

-To clarify the above showed no mechanic for a buff. Finishers applied a debuff that acted as a Judgment targeting that would increase Judgment damage and not be clunky.

Though I was trying to approach it with a consistent look.

With straight burst like you are talking that would be very viable as well. The concept on both ends is far less clunky than what it is now.

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I guess I was doubling down in your feedback where finishers apply a debuff that Judgment homes in on and bursts.

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The layout
-Build Holy power
-Dump Holy power, build debuff
-Judgment targets of debuff

Either
1. Debuff stacks and Judgment doesn't consume, lower cd.
2. Debuff does not stack and Judgment consumes as a big burst.

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I guess I was thinking the mastery buffed the debuff that increased Judgment damage.

But could you layout exactly how the basic is structured?

This is interesting as it's almost another resource system akin to Beta Unholy with festering wounds.
In the first iteration, I'd be worried about burst AoE since we have to build up stacks. The second seems like it would be hard to balance because of it's bursty nature. Perhaps a middle ground?

I also really like the Judge/Law theme that's being thrown around as I think it fits Ret really well. I'd love to see some design around the Judge (us of course) / Jury (AoE mechanic) / Executioner (single target) concept with different Laws (a la D3) as utility.

I'm personally not a big fan of short term cooldowns. I'd rather have interesting procs to play with as opposed to watching timers.

[Ulthane]

@Bolt66 the concept of the Judgment window, the nature/fantasy is fun. To see Judgment have weight to it and meaningful is fun. The current iteration is not fun.

The way it works is Judge them and Carry out your verdict. Judgment to Templar's Verdict. That concept meshed in. Sadly the current implementation is bad. So a way to make it feel right all goes back to the simplicity of a buff.

[Deleted]

to counter bubble and iceblock is not useful enough?

casting penance while running for example is incredibly useful. Theres plenty of good priest glyphs.

[Morally Grey Storm]

casting penance while running for example is incredibly useful. Theres plenty of good priest glyphs.

tell me about it.

Glyph of TV is basically mandatory.
So is Glyph of DivProt.
So is Glyph of Burden of Guilt.
and then you realise you also want to have Glyphs of DivShield, of HoF, of WoG, and of FoL.

Every class faces such choices.

But Priests can literally make our (and mage's aswell) major(and in our case only) defensive cd obsoltete and nonexistant.

[Reghame]

Shield of Vengeance is 1,000% AP, Power Word: Shield for Disc priests is 500% SP. Both can be dispelled. Cooldown for SoV is 2mins by default, down to 90secs with a 3-rank artefact trait. PW:S is 7.5sec CD, and has Weakened Soul for 15secs. PW:S gets +15% absorb amount via a 3-rank artefact trait too.

its also worth noting that its not just a shield, but a damaging ability as well. For PVP that means you basically double it's efectiveness for the GCD because your also dealing damage while they cannot. Sure it is dispellable but like ruiizu said, the amount of dispels out there are limited and some of the specs mentioned that can do not WANT to be able to dispel you immediately. Honestly i found the only ones actively dispelling me as ret would be someone like a resto shaman or a mage with spellsteal because theirs is much easier to cast without potential downsides.

As for the meteor effect storm mentions, this is true but it also kind of makes sense, it would be incredibly odd and quite difficult to balance should that 200k shield do 200k to every target, it would turn into a major DPS cooldown for AOE if you could pop it efficiently and that other types of spells like this work in similar conjunction.

I am also not against the notion of buffing the spell either, but balancing on it would be needed. dispite it being seen mostly as a defensive ability, it is also deceptively good as an offensive spell too. per GCD the spell is already one of our strongest so giving it more shielding without less damage could be very bad for both PVE and PVP. (remember, as it is now, for PVP standards, its a numerically great spell, it basically gives you a 400k+ health difference between you and your enemy because of how the reflective nature of the spell works.)

BTW i dont remember who talked about it but shield slam never dispels anymore.

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tell me about it.

Glyph of TV is basically mandatory.
So is Glyph of DivProt.
So is Glyph of Burden of Guilt.
and then you realise you also want to have Glyphs of DivShield, of HoF, of WoG, and of FoL.

Every class faces such choices.

But Priests can literally make our (and mage's aswell) major(and in our case only) defensive cd obsoltete and nonexistant.

And all through alpha and beta we make their lives obsolete and non existent because of new things like PVP templates and how they are not as mobile as they once were. Despite what people think about "ret mobility" and how bad it is, you can still get to people and because of your superior health and damage theres a damn good chance you wont need to bubble at all and simply wreck them.
For duels ret are strong as fuc but thats dueling, not really balanced PVP. for 2s 3s and 5s though ret is still very strong. i have no complaints about their kit's viability ATM, just litter jitters that could be much better and number changes.

[Ulthane]

@Reghame would you think that a 30 second cd on it but trait affects the absorb amount would be a good direction for SoV? I think it could address the defensives issue in PvE but for PvP it would be an improvement?

[Teleros]

I am also not against the notion of buffing the spell either, but balancing on it would be needed.

I'd settle for it being dispel-proof first. For a second buff, I'd try to remove the range limitation, such that if someone breaks it and they're 9+ yards away, they still get hit by the reflected component*. Ret has very poor anti-caster (read: precisely zero) defences ATM, so this would be helpful without being too OP (and would make very little to no difference for melee).

*Perhaps you could base the reflected damage on who does the amount of damage to the Ret. If the mage does 70% of the absorb amount of SoV and the warrior does 30%, the warrior takes 300% AP damage and the mage takes 700% AP damage.

it basically gives you a 400k+ health difference between you and your enemy because of how the reflective nature of the spell works.

Only if the enemy is within 8 yards remember.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Before I put my idea, is SoV mostly PVP oriented in terms of used? Or are there valid applications in PVE?

[Morally Grey Storm]

As for the meteor effect storm mentions, this is true but it also kind of makes sense, it would be incredibly odd and quite difficult to balance should that 200k shield do 200k to every target, it would turn into a major DPS cooldown for AOE if you could pop it efficiently and that other types of spells like this work in similar conjunction.

how does it make sense? It might feth up cc in close vicinty.

200k divided by 3 targets is an amount of damage worth of 1 autoattack or so, and thus, is negliggible.
I'd rather it did full damage to our target/the one who dealt final amount of damage, so SoV burst would matter.

And last but not least, 200k? Seriously?

it would turn into a major DPS cooldown for AOE if you could pop it efficiently and that other types of spells like this work in similar conjunction.

It would not.
And anyway, clever, inventive usage of one's tools should be encouraged and cheered upon, not frowned.

I am also not against the notion of buffing the spell either, but balancing on it would be needed.

1)make it undispellable
+
2) divide cooldown by 2(or even more).
or
a) make it undispellable
+
b) multiply amount absorber by x1.5 at the very least.

That's what they should do.
I'd much rather they did the former , so SoV would become a short-term, short-cd, always at hand, nifty cd.

remember, as it is now, for PVP standards, its a numerically great spell, it basically gives you a 400k+ health difference between you and your enemy because of how the reflective nature of the spell works.)

8 yards range
Reghame pls
what are you on about?

Despite what people think about "ret mobility" and how bad it is

It is not bad.
It is simply nonexistant.
There is none.
"Press "W" button real hard" is not mobility.

you can still get to people...

... if they somehow feth up .
You've no means to get to people.

Of course you can talent "full mobility"(BWAHAHAH), choosing Derpony and Unbound Freedom but guess what, you lose on major defensive improvement in doing so, and forsake your greatest offering you might provide for your team - Blessing of Sanctuary.
Why would I need such a Ret in my team? What he can offer to my comp?
The ability to , err, ride a fething horse once in 45 seconds?

I'd rather take, well, any other melee , including Gamon, Hogger, or even Maximmilian of Northsire.

you can still get to people and because of your superior health and damage theres a damn good chance you wont need to bubble at all and simply wreck them.

there's also a damn good chance they merrily kite you to hell and back.
Even melee specs will kite you, you wont catch up to DK nomatter what you do, f.e.
Your only chance is HoF and it's on 25 sec cd, once its pitiful duration is over, you are in for a Blue Fisting time, with Chaincs of Icy Ice , and all of the kinky stuff any self-respecting DK has.

for 2s 3s and 5s though ret is still very strong.

How and why?
COuld you elaborate your thoughts a little bit , since we're engaged in a (somewhat) adequate discussion?

[Reghame]

Before I put my idea, is SoV mostly PVP oriented in terms of used? Or are there valid applications in PVE?

if you can use it in PVE, then use it, its actually one of the stronger abilities in your kit if your have downtime to cast and can proc safely. That is the problem it has ATM in terms of balance. It's shield portion might not be the strongest, but as far as damage goes it is really good ( Remember, HP is much higher than your damage output, this is why this works out like it does)
This is also in the same lines as equality, in the sense that because the health to damage level is much different, balancing something around that fact can be difficult.

[Lunavale]

It is not exactly hard to buff the shield part of SoV without increasing the damage it does(which isn't very large for a 2ish minute CD)

[Reghame]

strong because they are actually tougher than you think they are. they actually DO meaningful healing in arenas and have really good damage all through closed testing phases. The only argument you can muster is that their defensives are dispellable (not that many people are playing the dispel classes all through testing mind you because they simply are not that good) and how we have no mobility (we do, its talentable, and our mobility was cut just like everyone else, on top of this, we gained anti mobility tools in the form of hindrance and the PVP talent. so we actually end up being very good vs most specs actually)

Now am i saying ret will be OP or strong on launch? no, i dont have foresight and honestly, i dont think ret will EVER be one of the top picks either, if they do it is a miracle because of the constant community stigma against them and how generally popular ret seems to be. sorry to say but thats just how it might be. All i AM saying tho, is that AT THIS MOMENT AND DURING TESTING! ret is strong, and has been strong. constant denial of this is quite a farce in it's own. the only reason i give YOU SPECIFICALLY such a hard time on this is how adamant you are and how sure you are of it without actually giving any sort of insight other than it sucks because we dont have this, we need this because we just do. On top of this, you cant even play it so being so firm on such a belief is so odd on it's own.
Its almost like saying living in canada must be shit because they dont have a president and because its shit there yet you yourself have never even lived in the country yourself. it just makes no sense to think this way.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Being powerful means nothing if you can't even get close to them.

[Reghame]

Being powerful means nothing if you can't even get close to them.

i dont understand why people think ret never gets to anyone, this is not true in the slightest. even the "most mobile" class DH cannot keep away from ret forever. nor would you want to either since the ret can just reset the fight if you do that. i honestly find it easier to kill targets trying to kite me than trying to duke it out with me honestly.

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ill say this again, i think the retribution paladin community seems to be all upset about PVP because we lost long arm and burden. The only reason we had these tools in the first place was because of the constant spammy CC/anti mobility tools everyone had while also being much faster than us even with LAotL. We do not need these tools anymore, everyone is different now and the PVP game is different too. stop thinking that just because "We have to talent into speed skills" (which we always had to do anyway????) and that we have less +movement skills does NOT mean our sticking ability is worse. id say its actually better vs ranged than its ever been since i no longer get spammed by CC slows and snares. i dont waste 90% of my mana using emancipate and find myself needed more which i dont have then being killed because i cant do anything.

The game IN GENERAL is much different than it was in the past. unless your comparing every new aspect with one another AND or playing it constantly in the new environment, you do not really understand whats going on.

[Morally Grey Storm]

strong because they are actually tougher than you think they are.

because of templates?
Not convinced.

they actually DO meaningful healing in arenas

single FoL is what, ~270k healing?
Standart manapool is worth what, 3 FoLs?
That's meaningful healing to you?
Or do you seriously count splash healing done through talent over the match "meaningful?

The only argument you can muster is that their defensives are dispellable (not that many people are playing the dispel classes all through testing mind you because they simply are not that good)

amount of dispel-classes played is absolutely irrelevant.
Our complete self-defese toolkit is fully dispellable, and so is what's left of our pathetic "team utility" (not that I fancy myself ever being a team player come Legion).

Check it out I have a defensive cd it has no cd and it's called Flash of Light and I have to stand amidst battle like a retard and hardcast it, but then hey again I have this powerful defensive CD it's Called Shield of Dispelled, it absorbs an amount lesser than my other cool defensive - Flash of Light, and is dispellable, and is on a fething 2 minute cooldown oh dear Emperor I'm soo good at defence I should've rolled an Imperial Fist.

we have no mobility

We don't.
Derpony is no mobility.
Seal of Can't Use Until Already In Melee is literally craptastic and is not worthy of being mentioned regarding any serious PvP, tis a Dragonslaying tool, and a pathetic one even at that.

and our mobility was cut just like everyone else

god fucking damnit reg.

we gained anti mobility tools in the form of hindrance and the PVP talent

where the former has a fuckhuge 30 sec cd and the latter applies only in almost melee range(12 yrds) and for some obviously smart reason doesn't work with associated abilitie's talents, making us have no choice in related talent row(BoW,DH, third talent whatitsname)

so we actually end up being very good vs most specs actually)

are we?
Care to fight a frostmage on beta and then come here tell us your feelings?
How about Fecal durid? a DK maybe? Furrywarr? Monk? DH? Or maybe rouge? Hunter?

ret is strong, and has been strong. constant denial of this is quite a farce in it's own.

Constant denial of Ret having huge glaring weaknesses on every field be it PvP, Dragonslaying, talent synergy, mobility, Aoe, abilities' synergy, Greater gakking Blessings, Colossus Smash of Juggernaut Judgement, etc etc is indeed farce in it's own.
So I don't engage myself in it, unlike you.

the only reason i give YOU SPECIFICALLY such a hard time on this is how adamant you are and how sure you are of it without actually giving any sort of insight other than it sucks because we dont have this, we need this because we just do.

god fucking damnit reg.
did you ever read what I wrote no you didn't apparently or you did, but you did in such a bizarre, diagonally upside down backwards way that you only saw what you wanted to see .
That's your view and you can be entitled to it but I choose to remain critical and providing feedback at least slightly greater than "GAIZ I POWN NEWBZ ON ALPHA RET IZ GRAET BECAUSE I R ON ALPHA I KNO".

On top of this, you cant even play it so being so firm on such a belief is so odd on it's own.

Yeah, because having 5 expansions worth of playing solely Ret in both PvP and Slaying of Scripted Dragons along with not too shallow of a mind and a few working braincells is not enough to analyze I guess.

Its almost like saying living in canada must be shit because they dont have a president and because its shit there yet you yourself have never even lived in the country yourself. it just makes no sense to think this way.

If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck and tastes like a duck , it is almost certainly, a duck.

Ret looks like shit.
Rest is up to those who wants to risk and taste it.

[Ulthane]

i dont understand why people think ret never gets to anyone, this is not true in the slightest. even the "most mobile" class DH cannot keep away from ret forever. nor would you want to either since the ret can just reset the fight if you do that. i honestly find it easier to kill targets trying to kite me than trying to duke it out with me honestly.

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ill say this again, i think the retribution paladin community seems to be all upset about PVP because we lost long arm and burden. The only reason we had these tools in the first place was because of the constant spammy CC/anti mobility tools everyone had while also being much faster than us even with LAotL. We do not need these tools anymore, everyone is different now and the PVP game is different too. stop thinking that just because "We have to talent into speed skills" (which we always had to do anyway????) and that we have less +movement skills does NOT mean our sticking ability is worse. id say its actually better vs ranged than its ever been since i no longer get spammed by CC slows and snares. i dont waste 90% of my mana using emancipate and find myself needed more which i dont have then being killed because i cant do anything.

The game IN GENERAL is much different than it was in the past. unless your comparing every new aspect with one another AND or playing it constantly in the new environment, you do not really understand whats going on.

I think the upset is actually branched into two major segments.

1. What you just mentioned
2. The clash of Judgment vs Holy Power and what happens when they get away with the Judgment debuff and you lost your dump window.