[BETA] Demonology Warlock Discussion

[Gasper]

This spec is awesome. Has anyone started trying to do some math in terms of talent builds and priority queues? I was messing around with it and had a ton of fun, but there is so much going on here compared to most of the other DPS specs that it's proving difficult to pick apart...

It is really hard to say without final numbers but right now it seems you can take a few different routes to do damage.

The 2 routes I am enjoying the most are the following:

1: Maintain Demon Count:
With this build I maintain as many demons as possible and abuse this with the increased damage Demon-bolt gets from it. Always keeping my newly summoned demons buffed and spending as little time as possible with less than 8-10 demons active.

2: Demon Bombing:
With this instead of taking Demonbolt, I take Soul Conduit. It seems to proc fairly often and works very well with the idea behind this build. Spend your time casting as many 4 shard Hand of Gul'dans you possible can. As the timer on any of your imp groups begin to drop to 0 use Implosion. Relying on the RNG of Soul Conduit kinda sucks but I have fallen in love with it the more I use it. Sometimes you can end up with an insane number of imps (I am talking over 20).

[Halwyn]

https://youtu.be/9zccT0GS0Qg?t=1036
So... is WoWHead calculator wrong and SH is on a minute cooldown now?

[gruxxar]

https://youtu.be/9zccT0GS0Qg?t=1036
So... is WoWHead calculator wrong and SH is on a minute cooldown now?

Soul harvest has been 1min for demo only for the last 3-4 (ish) builds

[xuros]

I've thought about it, but those don't really change your decisions in combat, its just feelgood noise on the screen. If you want my addon has all the variables you'd need to make a weak aura to tell you that; but I don't think i'd add it to the addon.

Edit:
I made a couple quick weak auras to show Demonbolt / Doom buff values, these will likely break in the next release of zPets because i'm going to rename the variables to make sure they don't collide with other addons, but it's an example of what you can do yourself with the zPets + weak auras.
Demonbolt:

duZaeaGlPuBdsA2qmFPq3MGDcjSxKDt0(vJskAyqk)gO7jfmyQHJkEmkDkPKJjvDobKUmOXjvSybklhflsG0QeOAzckpxOMOGOPIQMmHMoPtlQxjG4zcQUUiBuG4BcPndW2fG6VsL6ZcX0Ge9DbqRtaYtHA0OsJxQKljG6wccxtq68qQwPKddOxlam1t8ewGWIewK4jSyoMdcq05HDPeoWSeMnfRGc8WUucdijz1mOSzRR9EVZa2CGklysQ7BSHTmJSvUq51EV379EJaYcezlau5UBy3SztoqLfmj1G3oSw7aPVDyTcEpAO16AV379EVzGAIr2mOHekakdgiIgq7G2UTaqLBRR9EV379gkfV279gkfV279(AV37R9EVV279(6IWmWizqjp6CGewHDPeolZA3SGcCqGkuKqrpHvMCKiqgINWk6CGeMnfRGceMnfRGcDZnlcjSMfGIeMnfRGcegqsYQzqzZwx79ENbS5avwWKu33ydBzgzRCHYR9EV379MbQjg5wzsWR9EVHiXWR9EV379MbQjg5gaqKy41EV3qP4fukEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDry2uSck0TIohiHJvGAkMWSCHSbaHtCebQqsjCsQm5irGmepHztXkOaHVUaKKSAgu2S11EVZa2CGklysQ7BSHTmJSvUq51EV379EZa1eJCdaism8AV3Bism8AV379EVzGAIrUvMe8AV3BOu8ckfVUUUUUUUUUUUUUUiLWbywu5sbjA4D6eTpkQO1hTt4DqRdbieOevcltc8m5irGmXek6jmxyocxLccQrdn0WJgAN(ordpuu7rLaecugOeols4qcfaLbder3bMWiGafjEclMbaiZMqu0jEclKq0mXtkPeMbebs8ewiHOzINusjmdqwiXtyHeIMjEsjLWkqeOujEclKq0mXtkPegaqwndkjEclKq0mXtkPKskHJjCyT7BJw7(OeoGju0JYW6jLia

Doom:

duJpeaGlPsBtjMnHMVsk3Mi7ujP9ISBQA)WOKOgMeACkf3tcmyXWjWHvQoLuXXiLZPu6VkP6NkjCAPSCuzrujzvuP4XOQNtftKkPMkrnzs10PSmuQEfvICzvUUK2ivQEgkPntITtLO(gj10ijFwI8DQe6PQADujy0e04LGUevkDlukxtQ68OeRuXRvs0VrXKgjtVe960RtY0R3CeiUZI8vOrVB5PNV6ymsYxHg9kvpV1y8L7GbbbbPPGi4mEMQ3qWAfG4BIiMWZJbbbbbbbbrKHFxerA3eIuas5YLfCgpt1BUPBX(oiUKw3I9DCJwXIDWGGGGGGGGWDwLZx2vUMHrYfqCv3Us7MWoyqqqqqqqqoVogeeeKZRJbbbbbdccccgeeeemiiiiyWqplRqrX5mYD2wu33Z6g2zFrtBZsVAvKcBQ2qFZ3S15zKeiE2PtRQrVX1kv64iz6nweC0ZxDmgj65RogJ06glco6DSDR6qpVWJFL0xfOVBh98vhJrIELQN3Am(YDWGGGG0uqeCgpt1BiyTcq8nret45XGGGGGGGGWDwLZJyC1ddcccYj6Cyqqqqqqqq4oRY5ru2fDomiiiiNxhZ51XGbdgmyWGbdgmyWGbd98vhJrADHn9JERjD6Krp3vQX4LzrWrVDfA07InDti5EVgRlB12Y62nQ10yF7cPWMQf69vjzUwPshNdTQg9nD6DndJeIBPx41kj0i3xu33ZQ6(nABuZA)I2cPWMQT0x4kuuCoJCVV4YIkvl9f16vVOUOksHnvBPxKzxNKPxVPO04RIglKm9svrRrYKrg9C78hjtVuv0AKmzKrphJ4rY0lvfTgjtgz0B7IN3iz6LQIwJKjJm6v25TgJNKPxQkAnsMmYiJ(Q34ALkDCKm98vhJrIEmyuQEERX4l3bdcccstbrWz8mvVHG1kaX3ermHNhdcccccccc3zvopIYUOZHbbbb5eDomiiiiiiiiCNv58igx9WGGGGCEDmNxhdgmyWGbdgmyWGbdgmKrg9o0ZExTUf7QPMExMwvtf7AKrea

Not in beta so I've not used your addon but I have a question about it. Is it set up something like Affdots was in its glory days of SoO and to show you when the is the best time to use your Demonbolt? SO you use it when you have the most demons out at a time?

[Deleted]

Not in beta so I've not used your addon but I have a question about it. Is it set up something like Affdots was in its glory days of SoO and to show you when the is the best time to use your Demonbolt? SO you use it when you have the most demons out at a time?

You don't really need something like this due to the nature of soul shards and pet durations. Demonbolt is still your shard generator and you'll still be chain casting it quite often.

[Deleted]

You don't really need something like this due to the nature of soul shards and pet durations. Demonbolt is still your shard generator and you'll still be chain casting it quite often.

aye, when you arent casting HoG or call dreadstalker to spend your shards, you're casting demonbolt/shadowbolt to generate them.

[Baconeggcheese]

Not in beta so I've not used your addon but I have a question about it. Is it set up something like Affdots was in its glory days of SoO and to show you when the is the best time to use your Demonbolt? SO you use it when you have the most demons out at a time?

If by demonbolt you mean Thal'kiel's consumption then yeah you could use it for that.

[fenixazul]

Hi

I dont have access to the beta, but it seems that almost everything has a casting time, even Hand of Guldam. So, for fights in wich you have to move a lot and with KC gone, are you actually losing too much DPS as a demonology?

And I want to know how do you choose how many shards to expend in hand of guldan, that is something new to me.

[Baconeggcheese]

So, for fights in wich you have to move a lot and with KC gone, are you actually losing too much DPS as a demonology?

Mages are the only semi-mobile caster spec but even they suffer for movement. None of the casters are meant to be truly mobile.

And I want to know how do you choose how many shards to expend in hand of guldan, that is something new to me.

4, always 4.

[Kirroth]

Mages are the only semi-mobile caster spec but even they suffer for movement. None of the casters are meant to be truly mobile.

Very true, but with that said remember that your demon army will all happily keep doing damage while you're moving. Most of what you lose from movement is Shadow Bolt casts, so while you'll have less Wild Imps a little down the line it's not actually a huge immediate DPS hit. Well, unless DemEmp falls off while you're moving. Making sure DemEmp doesn't fall off while you're moving, by sneaking off a cast or anticipating the movement, will be one of those skill mastery things that makes the good Demo players perform better than the okay ones.

[enak101]

You've always got the demonwrath channel while you are moving, which means you can at least have full shards ready to go after you are finished moving. (maybe, its RNG and depends on pets and targets but hopefully you can set yourself up nicely pre movement)

I played around with this spec a bit and, I'm not sure if it's as easy as it seems. Atm it's something like (hopefully i don't forget something its been a few days)

Shadow/Demon Bolt to generate
Call Dreadstalkers
Hand of Gul'Dan
Casting empowerment after every time I summon anything (or if i know im gonna cast 2 summons very close I'll hold the empowerment, not even sure if this is better yet)
Keep Doom up

There's a couple of talents (that instant cast one that generates) I was using and stuff, but is that basically it as a base rotation? I guess the only thing that seems awkward is, i couldn't tell on the UI if there was a cap on imps (there isn't right?) I was just smashing out lots of 4 soul shard Gul'dans but it wasn't clear if i was overwriting existing imps or something.

Overall kinda fun spec when you give it a chance.

[Kirroth]

I guess the only thing that seems awkward is, i couldn't tell on the UI if there was a cap on imps (there isn't right?) I was just smashing out lots of 4 soul shard Gul'dans but it wasn't clear if i was overwriting existing imps or something.

No, there's no hard cap on imps. The other minions have a hard cap by means of their cooldown, but you can get as many imps as you can manage SS generation to sustain. That's why SS generation talents have value.

The biggest dilemma seems to be that the best SS generator talent (Soul Conduit) and the talent that most benefits from having lots of imps (Demonbolt) are on the same tier. But, well, that's certainly a deliberate balance choice. If you take Demonbolt, you'll be looking to maximize your SS generation elsewhere. If you take Soul Conduit, you're counting on other spells and traits making it worthwhile. A lot of those other traits that key off Wild Imps seem to be on the artifact, so it might be the case that your optimal build changes between the start of the expac and after you fill out your artifact traits.

[enak101]

That makes a lot of sense thanks, and yea that will make for some interesting talent choices with the current layout (maybe even stat/gearing choices)

I guess that would also mean that something like Demonbolt is gonna become really good with gear and/or set bonuses and legendaries that allow more demons. I imagine earlier with less gear we would want to focus on generation but it remains to be seen either way.

Here's hoping its an actual competitive spec since it seems a lot of fun to play.

[Kirroth]

I guess that would also mean that something like Demonbolt is gonna become really good with gear and/or set bonuses and legendaries that allow more demons.

Indeed. Of course, the Devs aren't idiots and are well aware of that. Which is why if you look over the Demo legendaries and set bonus they're pretty light on extra demons. The 4pc extra Dreadstalker duration is nice, especially with Imp Dreadstalkers talented, but that's just a cast or two more with the demons out and not increasing your max out at once. Probably the most effective is the legendary shoulders that refund the SS cost of Call Dreadstalkers, but you're only casting it every 15s so it's only an extra 2 imps at a time.

Now, those aren't nothing. But between Demonbolt and TKC you can be damned sure the Devs will be keeping a tight leash on any way to flood the field with extra imps.

[Gaidax]

They can always adjust Demonbolt instantly as they see fit, it was 150% spellpower and 30% just a few builds ago.

If it gets out if hand they will juts nerf it in the blink of an eye.

[Kirroth]

If it gets out if hand they will juts nerf it in the blink of an eye.

Right, but that makes it useless for all the players who don't have the OP combo of legendary and set items that let them flood the field with an excessive number of imps. So I'd actually prefer if they avoid needing to do that.

Hmm. Here's a thought. I wonder how spec locked the legendary items are? I ask because Destro has that belt that gives a 25% chance to proc a SS on casting a fire spell. Demonbolt, being chaos damage, is a fire spell. Assuming you could, would that be good enough to use?

[Deleted]

Indeed. Of course, the Devs aren't idiots and are well aware of that. Which is why if you look over the Demo legendaries and set bonus they're pretty light on extra demons. The 4pc extra Dreadstalker duration is nice, especially with Imp Dreadstalkers talented, but that's just a cast or two more with the demons out and not increasing your max out at once. Probably the most effective is the legendary shoulders that refund the SS cost of Call Dreadstalkers, but you're only casting it every 15s so it's only an extra 2 imps at a time.

Now, those aren't nothing. But between Demonbolt and TKC you can be damned sure the Devs will be keeping a tight leash on any way to flood the field with extra imps.

also remember talent like demonic calling which along with the legendary shoulders effectively makes call dreadstalkers a generator assuming you get 1 DC proc every 15 secs, resulting in about 4 extra imps every 30 secs assuming optimal conditions ofc, so in say a 6 min fight it could result in as many as 50ish extra imps which is pretty huge especially with imps being able to get as much as +35% crit and +30-60% dmg buff.

- - - Updated - - -

Hmm. Here's a thought. I wonder how spec locked the legendary items are? I ask because Destro has that belt that gives a 25% chance to proc a SS on casting a fire spell. Demonbolt, being chaos damage, is a fire spell. Assuming you could, would that be good enough to use?

i dont think its spec locked or it would specifically say so, but keep in mind that you can only use 3, 4 with the class hall perk and i can definately see demo wanting the shard refund shoulders, the doom buff legendary belt and the dmg buff from using doomguard legendary wrists and 4th is going to be the cd reduction ring for doomguard etc. so that at the very least you can maintain your 4pc.

as for the destro belt i doubt it would even proc it tbh since its not a "pure" fire spell as i think its supposed to be a destro only belt and id wager that the devs would quckly change it but ppl on beta can tell more than me if it actually does proc from demonbolt it would definately make it a difficult choice as to what to go for in the waist slot.

also since demonbolt is chaos dmg, shouldnt it also double dip in the breath of thal'kiel which increases fire and shadow dmg by 5%?

[Avikur]

So I finally got beta and got to play around with Demo, the spec I've been most looking forward to, I must say it's more challenging than I'd been expecting, granted I've only briefly played it at the training dummies so it might just be me not spending enough time on it. I just feel like there is so much to keep track of, shards, mana, pets, buffs, doom, it all feels very 'hectic' which i'm not saying is a bad thing but the standard interface certainly doesn't help, i'll sort some addons out which hopefully will help (pretty ironic that was a reason Blizz gave for the revamp and now it seems we need more addons than before!)

I love the theme and animations, they've done a fab job, it feels very unique.

Can anyone who has spent more time on the beta tell me which talent selection seems best (as of now - I realise tuning isn't done) and also how often do we use demonic empowerment? after each summon? with a certain number of pets? after a cooldown (dreadstalkers, darkglare etc) thanks

[Turturin the Warlock]

So I finally got beta and got to play around with Demo, the spec I've been most looking forward to, I must say it's more challenging than I'd been expecting, granted I've only briefly played it at the training dummies so it might just be me not spending enough time on it. I just feel like there is so much to keep track of, shards, mana, pets, buffs, doom, it all feels very 'hectic' which i'm not saying is a bad thing but the standard interface certainly doesn't help, i'll sort some addons out which hopefully will help (pretty ironic that was a reason Blizz gave for the revamp and now it seems we need more addons than before!)

I love the theme and animations, they've done a fab job, it feels very unique.

Can anyone who has spent more time on the beta tell me which talent selection seems best (as of now - I realise tuning isn't done) and also how often do we use demonic empowerment? after each summon? with a certain number of pets? after a cooldown (dreadstalkers, darkglare etc) thanks

There's actually far less to track than on live, particularly if you choose the passive talents, many of which seem pretty good.

Of course if you go full active talents, there's quite a few more cooldowns to track and of course the imptimer for implosion, but based plus passive so is pretty basic game play.

My guess is the newness may be coloring your perception. See how it feels after a level or two of questing

[Lucrece]

I'm REALLY annoyed that Demonbolt still doesn't use green fire in it's fire effect if we have the green fire quest done....so lazy, Blizzard.