[Mage] Legion: General Information and Discussion

[Polarthief]

Hello fellow (arch)mages. How good is mage for solo/casual player? Will I be able to quest comfortably in legion - world quests aka d3 bounties, suramar?

If something is slowable/CCable, Mages are a great class.

If something isn't ^ and you're alone and the mob hits pretty hard, you're dead and can't solo it unless you can burst it down quick enough.

If you ever want to do group stuff, Mages are a great class.


TL;DR: As long as you're not alone or the mob is kiteable, Mage is fine, otherwise, you should just go Hunter or Warlock.

- - - Updated - - -

3)Does increasing your mana pool in the limited ways available now increase your size any(if the answer to 1 is yes)

I don't have beta so this is just an assumption, but I'm like 99% sure that this answer is "no", because it'll probably work based on your % of current mana, not your amount.

[Gigabear]

I don't have beta so this is just an assumption, but I'm like 99% sure that this answer is "no", because it'll probably work based on your % of current mana, not your amount.

If I had a dollar for everytime I considered the logical way something was implemented by Blizz, didn't bother verifying it and then got thrown for a loop when it was some off the wall mechanic instead, I'd be rich.

[pkm]

I just recently acquired the arcane artifact. When/how can I start another artifact?

[Polarthief]

If I had a dollar for everytime I considered the logical way something was implemented by Blizz, didn't bother verifying it and then got thrown for a loop when it was some off the wall mechanic instead, I'd be rich.

Oh I know, but it'd be reeeeeeally stupid to code it any other way.

[Gigabear]

Oh I know, but it'd be reeeeeeally stupid to code it any other way.

Unless the intent actually was to allow you to get a bit bigger when having more mana. Very unlikely though considering their recent attitude towards size buffs after the world shrinker/mount debacle.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

From when I last used it, it's maybe 5-10% larger at 100%, but you get significantly smaller with no mana. Neutral point is probably 75-80%.

[Gigabear]

From when I last used it, it's maybe 5-10% larger at 100%, but you get significantly smaller with no mana. Neutral point is probably 75-80%.

Wow. Thanks a lot for the info. I've been trying to find that out for the last week lol. Worth considering.

[Deleted]

If something is slowable/CCable, Mages are a great class.

If something isn't ^ and you're alone and the mob hits pretty hard, you're dead and can't solo it unless you can burst it down quick enough.

If you ever want to do group stuff, Mages are a great class.


TL;DR: As long as you're not alone or the mob is kiteable, Mage is fine, otherwise, you should just go Hunter or Warlock.

I wonder how fire will be. It doesn't really have slows anymore but does have cauterizing blink.

I do have beta but havn't really tried outdoor stuf with that talent. Only pvp where it's effectiveness is reduced by half.

[Northem]

The mandatory ice spells Fire mages hafta take. Can we get glyphs at least? And a fire option on the one all-ice talent tier?
Haha, I've played a fire mage since vanilla, got yelled at a lot in Molten Core Always wanted a fire barrier, maybe someday! (Muffinus)
Hahaha, I joined in BC. Had similar problems. XD Al'ar.... Great googly moogly, a Fire Barrier would be rad.
Issue is often: If you're facing another player in PvP, and their spell can look like 9 things, it's much harder to play. (Muffinus)

With the excuse that PvP would be more complicated (WTF?) Blizzard refuses to create cosmetic glyphs to change the appearance of [Ice Barrier] to something more in line with the Arcane and Fire specializations (however the Death Knights have indeed received new minor glyphs to change the graphic look of their shields...)

[Rothex]

I kinda gotta agree with Blizz there. If every class had different cosmetic appearances (whether different spells or minor glyphs) for the same spells then I can see where it would get confusing. Even though I have a lot of alts of different classes I only know about 2-3 classes' spells well, I barely know the names or visuals for the vast majority of the others. I can definitely see myself getting confused or wondering "what was that spell?" in both PVP and PVE content.

[Sarm]

Because if the opponent doesn't realize it's a glyph, it'd be confusing to interrupt a fire spell just to see him throw up "Fire Barrier", which should appear to be impossible until the fire lockout is over. That's probably just as immersion-breaking than just having the wrong color for a barrier.

[Lebanese Dude]

Because if the opponent doesn't realize it's a glyph, it'd be confusing to interrupt a fire spell just to see him throw up "Fire Barrier", which should appear to be impossible until the fire lockout is over. That's probably just as immersion-breaking than just having the wrong color for a barrier.

Honestly how is that an excuse? It's still called Ice Barrier. It just has a different graphic.

If you're concerned about immersion breaking, I wonder what you think about apparently being incapable under any circumstance of disarming a weapon-wielding fighter.

[Seneca]

I kinda gotta agree with Blizz there. If every class had different cosmetic appearances (whether different spells or minor glyphs) for the same spells then I can see where it would get confusing. Even though I have a lot of alts of different classes I only know about 2-3 classes' spells well, I barely know the names or visuals for the vast majority of the others. I can definitely see myself getting confused or wondering "what was that spell?" in both PVP and PVE content.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but why there's this double standard by blizzard side?

Wraith Walk has a frosty appearance but there are a unholy and blood glyphed version:

Glyph of the Unholy Wraith/Glyph of the Blood Wraith.

Anti-Magic Shell has a unholy appearance but there are a frost and blood glyphed version:

Glyph of the Chilled Shell/Glyph of the Crimson Shell

If it was not enough, Raise Dead (the spell which summons a Ghoul) can also summon, if glyphed, a Geist or a Skeleton (we only have 1 WE model, right?):

Glyph of the Geist/Glyph of the Skeleton.

It was not the end, I am afraid. Army of the Dead (it summons an army of Ghouls) can also summon, with a glyph, "an assortment of undead minions":

Glyph of Foul Menagerie.



Explain the design philosophy because it is not "no alternate version for everyone" or "alternate version for everyone". It might be "alternate version for someone", I guess?

Source: http://legion.wowhead.com/items=16.6

You can see the models in the "screenshot" section of some glyphs (by clicking on them one by one) and also the rest of their (DKs) minor glyphs (some, which alter the appearance of other spells too).

Because if the opponent doesn't realize it's a glyph, it'd be confusing to interrupt a fire spell just to see him throw up "Fire Barrier", which should appear to be impossible until the fire lockout is over. That's probably just as immersion-breaking than just having the wrong color for a barrier.

I guess we will all panic when we'll see a DK, won't we? (let alone all the other classes that I didn't bother to check).

Update:

Also, what you say doesn't seem to apply to Druids, for example.

it'd be confusing to interrupt a fire spell just to see him throw up "Fire Barrier", which should appear to be impossible until the fire lockout is over

http://legion.wowhead.com/item=11806...un#screenshots

It would be confusing to interrupt a nature spell just to see druids throw up "Sun Fall" which should appear to be impossible until the nature lockout is over. Oh wait, for blizzard, this doesn't seem to be the case actually, considering that they add Glyph of the Sun.

(To make it clearer, Glyph of the Sun change Star fall to have a solar appearance (which is the appearance of their nature spells) rather than a lunar appearance (the appearance of their arcane spells)).

[Polarthief]

I kinda gotta agree with Blizz there. If every class had different cosmetic appearances (whether different spells or minor glyphs) for the same spells then I can see where it would get confusing. Even though I have a lot of alts of different classes I only know about 2-3 classes' spells well, I barely know the names or visuals for the vast majority of the others. I can definitely see myself getting confused or wondering "what was that spell?" in both PVP and PVE content.

So make it only look different to the player, not the server, problem solved?

Regardless though, small cosmetic things pale in comparison to the other problems we still have as of now.

[Rothex]

Snip re DK stuff

I don't think it's a double standard. Those DK spells aren't tied to a specific school that is specific to one of the DK specs. Anti-Magic Shell and Wraith Walk aren't Blood, Frost, nor Unholy-type spells. They're neutral in terms of how they relate school-wise to the class. Simply re-colouring those spells isn't exactly an issue when it comes to lore or fantasy.

It's different for Ice Barrier I think. Ice Barrier is directly tied to the Frost school and is intended to be, lorewise, an icy-type spell. Simply recolouring that and going "hey it's red now for Fire" while still calling it Ice Barrier is contradictory and silly IMO. A simply recolour cannot possibly be used here unlike in the DK options above. The spell would have to be changed to Fire Barrier, removing the Frost aspect of it, in order to not seem dumb otherwise we'd be surrounded by a barrier of ice that is flaming. This would mean creating a new spell, which would serve the same purpose as Ice Barrier but with a different name and appearance. Doing so just in order to please a few people's aesthetics seems irrelevant when it comes to actual issues that developers need to put time and effort into.

Not to mention the issues that arise with being locked out of specific schools through interrupts and how, by changing Ice Barrier to a Fire spell, would screw Fire over defensively.

It would be different if Ice Barrier wasn't tied to the Frost school and was just a plain, old, boring, generic, neutral Arcane-school defensive. Similar to how those DK spells are. That way it could be recoloured to your heart's content and it doesn't contradict itself or seem stupid.

So make it only look different to the player, not the server, problem solved?

Is that even possible, code-wise? Trying to think of examples atm that already exist but can't.

[Deleted]

With the excuse that PvP would be more complicated (WTF?) Blizzard refuses to

Can you explain what you are implying here about Blizzard when Mages don't get something Death Knights might get? Are they evil? Are they stubborn? Are the stupid?

Anyway, on this particular quotation, they say that an issue is often the one described, it does not mean that factor it's 100% equalized across classes.

The game is known and it is definitely not a hard science like an FPS game and some imperfection in class-equality always existed.

Inequality does not mean imbalance though. You might not get that and you might get something they don't. It's a complex RPG.

[Seneca]

I don't think it's a double standard. Those DK spells aren't tied to a specific school that is specific to one of the DK specs. Anti-Magic Shell and Wraith Walk aren't Blood, Frost, nor Unholy-type spells. They're neutral in terms of how they relate school-wise to the class.

They are tied to a specific school, actually.

Anti-Magic Shell is a shadow spell (so if we interrupt their shadow school or silence them they can't cast it).

Wraith Walk is a physical spell (so they can always cast it, no matter what we interrupt or if we silence them).

This is extremely important, gameplay wise.

Raise Dead is phyiscal.

Army of the dead is shadow.

If we interrupt their shadow school or silence them, they cannot cast AMS or AotD, but can use Raise Dead and Wraith Walk.

Simply re-colouring those spells isn't exactly an issue when it comes to lore or fantasy.

Wait so it is a lore/fantasy issue? Or is it a gameplay issue? Because you wrote "I can definitely see myself getting confused or wondering "what was that spell?" in both PVP and PVE content.", meaning that it is a gameplay issue.

Blizzard bypass lore/fantasy issue whenever they want, as we already know, so if that's the nature of the problem (lore/fantasy) they could make everyone happy by adding recolored versions through glyphs and do not care about immersion, as they almost always did in the past.

It's different for Ice Barrier I think. Ice Barrier is directly tied to the Frost school and is intended to be, lorewise, an icy-type spell.

So are AotD and AMS.

This is extremely important.

Many times I silenced (when CS was a silence too) DKs when they were frozen to prevent them to use AMS and negate my bad ass shatter combo. I knew that AMS was(is) a shadow spell and have always reacted accordingly to my knowledge.

I also know that Raise Dead is physical so I don't silence/interrupt them to prevent them from using it.

A simply recolour cannot possibly be used here unlike in the DK options above. The spell would have to be changed to Fire Barrier, removing the Frost aspect of it, in order to not seem dumb otherwise we'd be surrounded by a barrier of ice that is flaming.

In the same way, their shadowy bubble (AMS) becomes a frosty bubble, and it seems blizzard is fine with that.

This would mean creating a new spell, which would serve the same purpose as Ice Barrier but with a different name and appearance.

Isn't this what they are doing with every minor glyph? Druids have, like, thousand of glyphs which alter their forms.

Acquatic Form can change to an Orca.

Flight Form can change to a Sentinel Owl.

Travel Form can change to a Cheetah or a Doe (and confouding everyone who face a druid, I guess? KappaRoss).

Doing so just in order to please a few people's aesthetics seems irrelevant when it comes to actual issues that developers need to put time and effort into.

Excluding the fact that they are a multi-milion company and that the art team is different from the gameplay team, "pleasing a few people's aesthetics" isn't what they are trying to do with the thousand of glyphs there are/there will be?

I mean, are you asking for them to stop making Glyphs because it is a waste of time? (Not necessarily disagree with that point, just trying to get what you are implying).

Not to mention the issues that arise with being locked out of specific schools through interrupts and how, by changing Ice Barrier to a Fire spell, would screw Fire over defensively.

Ice Barrier should still be a frost spell (otherwise the glyph might add an advantage).

You know what, scrap the DK part, look at druids and tell me why it should be different for mages:

http://legion.wowhead.com/item=11806...un#screenshots

It would be confusing to interrupt a nature spell just to see druids throw up "Sun Fall" which should appear to be impossible until the nature lockout is over. Oh wait, for blizzard, this doesn't seem to be the case actually, considering that they add Glyph of the Sun.

(To make it clearer, Glyph of the Sun change Star fall to have a solar appearance (which is the appearance of their nature spells) rather than a lunar appearance (the appearance of their arcane spells)).

As you can see, all the points you have made, until now, seems to have been ignored by blizzard, if druids and Glyph of Sun are of any indication.

It would be different if Ice Barrier wasn't tied to the Frost school and was just a plain, old, boring, generic, neutral Arcane-school defensive.

Let's pretend that plain, boring and generic are not subjective terms. How is this different from Stellar Flare being a not-neutral Arcane spell glyphable into a nature-looking spell?

Druids main school is nature. Arcane is their secondary school. They have like 20 nature spells and 1 more or less (Moonfire), or a few more for Moonkins. As arcane (main) and fire-frost (secondary) are for us, respectively.

That way it could be recoloured to your heart's content and it doesn't contradict itself or seem stupid.

Tell me how this doesn't apply to Star Fall.

@Tobindax

Saying alternate versions of the same spells confound players and adding dozens of glylphs which gives alternate version of some spells to many classes, if not all but mages (can't bother to check), goes over any possible, logical explanation.

The only "logical" explanation is that they want to confound players but do not want mage to be the ones who confound, for whatever reason.

I do really think that everyone can check them on wikias but if it is not the case, here are the minor glyphs of all the classes (filters available too):

http://legion.wowhead.com/items=16

How can it be so that 3 different DK (unholy) pet models does not confound players but 3 potentially different Mage (frost) pet models does?

Why a Ghoul, a Skeleton and a Geist do not confound players but a, let's say, a Water Elemental, a Frost Elemental and a Frost Familiar do?

I look forward what you guys have to say, but I am not, realistically speaking, waiting for that to change my mind as far as my last rethorical questions are concerned.

I really hope you can surprise me, I like surprises.

[Rothex]

They are tied to a specific school, actually.

Anti-Magic Shell is a shadow spell (so if we interrupt their shadow school or silence them they can't cast it).

Wraith Walk is a physical spell (so they can always cast it, no matter what we interrupt or if we silence them).

This is extremely important, gameplay wise.

Raise Dead is phyiscal.

Army of the dead is shadow.

If we interrupt their shadow school or silence them, they cannot cast AMS or AotD, but can use Raise Dead and Wraith Walk.

I am aware of what school these spells are from and how they work gameplay wise. I'll quote myself again: Those DK spells aren't tied to a specific school that is specific to one of the DK specs". AMS is not Blood Magic Shield, or Frost Magic Shield, or Unholy Magic shield. It has no direct obvious connection to any of the specs' individual identities; most DK spells are shadow spells. It would only fall into the same issue as Ice Barrier if AMS was actually a blood shield that Frost and Unholy both used, but it's not; it's just a generic spell that is not tied directly to any of the DK spec identities.

Wait so it is a lore/fantasy issue? Or is it a gameplay issue? Because you wrote "I can definitely see myself getting confused or wondering "what was that spell?" in both PVP and PVE content.", meaning that it is a gameplay issue.

Blizzard bypass lore/fantasy issue whenever they want, as we already know, so if that's the nature of the problem (lore/fantasy) they could make everyone happy by adding recolored versions through glyphs and do not care about immersion, as they almost always did in the past.

I definitely think it's both a lore issue and a gameplay issue. Simply re-colouring generic spells that are not tied to individual specs are a non-issue both lorewise and gameplay wise IMO. This goes for AMS, AotD, or any of the druid cosmetic glyphs. None of those glyphs or spells are inherently tied, both lorewise and gameplay wise, to a specific spec of those classes. Ice Barrier is directly tied to Frost. This is the difference.

I mean, are you asking for them to stop making Glyphs because it is a waste of time? (Not necessarily disagree with that point, just trying to get what you are implying).

Of course glyphs are not a waste of time. What I was trying to say was that if every class-wide spell was given a glyph to change its appearance then we'd end up with hundreds of new glyphs and hundreds of new colours or animations. This would take up a lot of dev time that is, honestly, not really necessary.

Ice Barrier should still be a frost spell (otherwise the glyph might add an advantage).

What's the point then? I thought people were championing for a 'Fire Barrier' because they didn't like being a Fire Mage who used Frost spells. There's no point in simply recolouring Ice Barrier to red and saying hey here's your fix if it's still called Ice Barrier, it still looks like Ice Barrier, and is still a Frost school spell. It doesn't actually address the issue that some people want addressed. Hence why it'd have to be changed to a Fire spell and given a new look, which is the problem.

Other classes, such as the DK and Druid examples given, don't suffer this same issue because none of those spell mentioned above are inherently tied to a specific spec of those classes. Ice Barrier is tied to Frost in name, appearance, lore, and school. Any Druid can use any of the glyphs that alter their forms and this has no impact on any of the specs' identities since none of those glyphs are tied to any of the individual specs.

Tell me how this doesn't apply to Star Fall.

Are you referring to Glyph of the Solstice? Star Fall is specific only to Balance; Ice Barrier is class wide. I think I'm missing what point you wanted to raise here.

How can it be so that 3 different DK (unholy) pet models does not confound players but 3 potentially different Mage (frost) pet models does?

Why a Ghoul, a Skeleton and a Geist do not confound players but a, let's say, a Water Elemental, a Frost Elemental and a Frost Familiar do?

But this issue has nothing to do with pet appearances. It has to do with Arcane and Fire using a Frost spell. Blizzard should definitely make some glyphs for the Water Elemental so we can have multiple appearance options like DKs have for their pets. Tbh a new updated model would totally be better but variety would be welcomed.

[Sarm]

Ice Barrier should still be a frost spell (otherwise the glyph might add an advantage).

I actually can't think of any situation where changing the actual spell's school to the mage's spec would be anything but a possible disadvantage. There's no absorption or cooldown bonus for making it match, while it'd suffer from the same lockout if your main spec's spells got interrupted. It's actually a unique frost weakness in that regard.

[Seneca]

I am aware of what school these spells are from and how they work gameplay wise. I'll quote myself again: Those DK spells aren't tied to a specific school that is specific to one of the DK specs".

Mate this feels so arbitrary, but I guess the main issue here is that in-game mechanics are quite fucked up.

So DK shadow spells are not tied to Unholy because it is called Unholy?

Warlock fire spells are not tied to Destruction because it is called Destruction?

Mage arcane, fire and frost spells are tied to arcane, fire and frost because they share the same name?

I get what you mean, but it is all based on subjective interpretations.

Priest holy spells belong the the holy spec but not to the disci spec? (For example, PW:S is Disci only, in Legion, but I guess by ur pov it belongs to the Holy spec).

I know in-game mechanics are quite randoms but the fact that, for you, all frost spells belong to the frost spec but not all shadow spells belong to the unholy spec seems arbitrary.

AMS is not Blood Magic Shield, or Frost Magic Shield, or Unholy Magic shield. It has no direct obvious connection to any of the specs' individual identities;

But I guess that if Unholy was renamed to Shadow it would have a obvious connection to you?

To me, a dark, purple shield remind me of an unholy thing. Surely it doesn't remind me of a frost thing, lol.

I mean, we have to plagued by the names of our spec? What if they were called Secrets, Wildness and Solidity? No issue here?

It would only fall into the same issue as Ice Barrier if AMS was actually a blood shield that Frost and Unholy both used, but it's not; it's just a generic spell that is not tied directly to any of the DK spec identities.

I don't get this. Anyway, how does all of this change the fact that I am confused when I see DKs with different shapes of shields, pets and such?

I have HS up. If I see their purple shield, I don't use it, if I see a red/frost thing around them, I could actually use it but oh, wait, I didn't do any damage, why? I might wonder.

Simply re-colouring generic spells that are not tied to individual specs are a non-issue both lorewise and gameplay wise IMO. This goes for AMS, AotD, or any of the druid cosmetic glyphs. None of those glyphs or spells are inherently tied, both lorewise and gameplay wise, to a specific spec of those classes. Ice Barrier is directly tied to Frost. This is the difference.

and

Are you referring to Glyph of the Solstice? Star Fall is specific only to Balance; Ice Barrier is class wide. I think I'm missing what point you wanted to raise here.

I re-read it 3 times but my mind is still fucked. Explain further, if you don't mind. I just see contradictions here.

Spec-only spells can/can't be recolored?

Class wide spells can/can't be recolored?

Of course glyphs are not a waste of time. What I was trying to say was that if every class-wide spell was given a glyph to change its appearance then we'd end up with hundreds of new glyphs and hundreds of new colours or animations. This would take up a lot of dev time that is, honestly, not really necessary.

I mean, druids have 2 completely model for their travel form, didn't I said enough? I am sure they could dedicate 5 min for Ice Barrier, considering that they devolped 200 glyphs which alter spells of the other classes, being them spec-only spells, class wide spells, 2-spec only spells, and whatever thing is in between.

What's the point then? I thought people were championing for a 'Fire Barrier' because they didn't like being a Fire Mage who used Frost spells. There's no point in simply recolouring Ice Barrier to red and saying hey here's your fix if it's still called Ice Barrier, it still looks like Ice Barrier, and is still a Frost school spell. It doesn't actually address the issue that some people want addressed. Hence why it'd have to be changed to a Fire spell and given a new look, which is the problem.

What's the point of all the other minor glyphs, then?

The majority of us (well I am not really complaining, I don't care a lot about it actually), complain about sprouting fireballs while being covered 99% of the time by a frost shield. Such class fantasy.

If we have to have a "fire school based" shield, it can't come through a minor glyph, for obvious reasons.

Other classes, such as the DK and Druid examples given, don't suffer this same issue because none of those spell mentioned above are inherently tied to a specific spec of those classes.

Ehm, Stellar Flare is Balance only, as you have also said if I am not wrong 0o

Are you referring to Glyph of the Solstice? Star Fall is specific only to Balance

Again, no idea what to answer. Clarify further, if you don't mind.

But this issue has nothing to do with pet appearances. It has to do with Arcane and Fire using a Frost spell. Blizzard should definitely make some glyphs for the Water Elemental so we can have multiple appearance options like DKs have for their pets. Tbh a new updated model would totally be better but variety would be welcomed.

I am glad we agree here.

I actually can't think of any situation where changing the actual spell's school to the mage's spec would be anything but a possible disadvantage. There's no absorption or cooldown bonus for making it match, while it'd suffer from the same lockout if your main spec's spells got interrupted. It's actually a unique frost weakness in that regard.

Well an advantage or a disadvantage. Anyway, it would alter the gameplay, and they do not want minor glyphs to alter it.

In addition, all the other glyphs of all the other classes which change the appearance of the spells, doesn't change their schools, so it would feel arbitrary.