20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[Ebalina]

It was a big factor for a ton of people and it does take a bit to run a guild well. You are also forgetting smaller servers who have a every hard time getting 20 good players, 20 man was a dumb idea they should have went with 15 or stayed 10.

It really does not matter what should of happened.
Fact is all i hear is excuse me i cannot do this i cannot do that or that you flat out refuse to play with other people then your inner circle.

Well guess what blizzard decided its 20man much like they decided to make abomination out of raiding when they introduced 10man with same rewards and you were seeing 25man guilds dying left and right cause of those special 10snowflakes that tough they were better then the rest.

Do you understand that this argument 10 tight knit community has been debunked time and time again.
Hell even one guy here said "We were 10man tight knit heroic grp made of friends, but as soon as the 20man mythic was announced we lost a tank a healer and soon after guild disbanded" but mate if you were such close friends why didn't you work together to overcome the problems you all so claim to have with 20man.

Right you decide to take the path of least resistance once again because it is the easy way out.

Basics all i hear is "mom they took my toy's so i wont find new ways to play with other kids" excuse .

[Deleted]

I want 10man mythic back..

[Raiju]

Well guess what blizzard decided its 20man much like they decided to make abomination out of raiding when they introduced 10man with same rewards and you were seeing 25man guilds dying left and right cause of those special 10snowflakes that tough they were better then the rest.

After all these years I've still yet to hear a valid argument supporting this. 25man had more loot, it later got more bonuses on top, it was the most profitable raid setting and T11 was anything but 10man friendly... yet everyone went 10man.

So what caused all the established 25mans to die?

[Deleted]

I would say yes. I cannot imagine fights like Xul, Mannaroth, or even more in 10mythic mode. It prolly would be too easy or too hard. 20man killed my great guild with great people but you know time goes on

[Aggrophobic]

Flex was one of the best features in MoP/WoD. Still wish they would have had it for mythic as well or at least kept 10 man mythic.
It's not a big deal but it would have made the game much more fun.

[I Push Buttons]

Flex was one of the best features in MoP/WoD. Still wish they would have had it for mythic as well or at least kept 10 man mythic.
It's not a big deal but it would have made the game much more fun.

I miss when flex was broken into wings :'(

Just randomly log in and get bite size bits of raiding at any given time.

[Raiju]

Flex was one of the best features in MoP/WoD. Still wish they would have had it for mythic as well or at least kept 10 man mythic.
It's not a big deal but it would have made the game much more fun.

Given things like vantus runes, later legendary inclusion in raids, etc. I wouldn't be surprised (assuming crz comes in fairly early) to see mythic go flex end of legion or the expansion after to deal with lower participation.

[Deleted]

After all these years I've still yet to hear a valid argument supporting this. 25man had more loot, it later got more bonuses on top, it was the most profitable raid setting and T11 was anything but 10man friendly... yet everyone went 10man.

So what caused all the established 25mans to die?

Many people in Cataclysm quit the game (as seen in the subscriber numbers), which made it harder and harder to keep enough people for 25m. So, on our server it was mostly lack of recruits to keep the big rosters. There were more or less two options: Take everyone you can get, and go slower through the content due to a reduced quality, or scale down to 10man. The first options sometimes causes more experienced / better raiders to leave because of lacking progress, which exacerbates the problem. My guild was the only one who took that option, the rest of the 25m guilds on our faction disbanded during T11. And while some bosses during that content were really badly tuned in 10m (e.g. Maloriak), the hardest bosses were far more challenging in 25m (Cho'gall, Al'akir, Council) with the exception of Sinestra. E.g. the best 25m guild on our server (was always ~200-250) broke up after not being able to kill Cho'gall. They were able to clear the content bar Sinestra within one week, and kill her the next one.

@ topic: I think it wasn't a success. Going from 10/25 to 20 proved to be a logistical nightmare for many. If it would have been a change from the WotLK system to the WoD system, it probably would have been smooth for most. But MoP > WoD wasn't.
I do really like the flex size on the lower difficulties, though. But they have to balance it a little better. It sucks to kick some people during progress for the first kill because a boss is much easier with 20 people than with 25.

[kamuimac]

So what caused all the established 25mans to die?

community which simply do not want to raid in big groups. to the point that blizzard had to force feed players into 20 man because if they were given even tiny choice majority woudl still prefer 10 mans

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Many people in Cataclysm quit the game (as seen in the subscriber numbers), which made it harder and harder to keep enough people for 25m. So, on our server it was mostly lack of recruits to keep the big rosters.

ye no thats not what happened - it was all the way "jezus christ thank you god findally we can get rid of those 10-15 faceless keyboard lickers and raid with tight group of friends"

[Deleted]

ye no thats not what happened - it was all the way "jezus christ thank you god findally we can get rid of those 10-15 faceless keyboard lickers and raid with tight group of friends"

That's exactly what happened, at least in my guild and most other 25m guilds on my faction and server (the only ones I'm sure of, because I was in contact with them). Not to all of them - some decided to go for 10m already before the addon, maybe due to the reasons you mentioned - but it happened to most of them.

The amount of players leaving us for better 25m guilds or quitting the game was at least 5 times higher than leaving us for a 10m guild.

[Magnosh]

It is an hard question, on one side you will have players swearing that it was the best thing they haver had, the best encounters and the best mechanics, on the other side you will have the players that disliked. So it will depend on the metric you use to assess the success or failure of the system.

In my opinion, I felt is was a rushed decision and not really thought about by Blizzard, some servers had really hard times to adapt to 20 Man Mythic because they were composed of mainly 10 Man Heroic guilds. On my server I saw guilds moving out of the servers to keep raiding Mythic, I saw guilds quiting and players refusing to join other guilds and ending up quiting with their in game friends. I raided alot of Siege of Orgrimmar Heroic (old mythic) on a 10 man group and I didn't had as much fun as fights like Iron Juggernault, Dark Shamans, Thok or even Siegecrafter Blackfuse.

I don't think all classes should be 100% balanced but they should be all competitive. I also never though that all fights should have been as hard in 10 man as 25 man, it was understandable that some fights were harder for smaller groups and others harder for bigger groups and that is totally fine as long as both sizes have an overall similar difficulty.

For me, as a Raid Leader and Guild Master, 20 man mythic was a failure it forced my old guild to disband and start fresh had officers sat down on garrison for 3h a day spaming trade chat for recruits with no luck, was forced back to Normal/Heroic to recruit players with lower item level but ultimately had to call it.

The big questions in my mind are:
If 10 man was more popular than 25 man on a lot of servers why did Blizzard forced 20 man? Was it because they want to provide the same experience for everyone? Was it because they don't want to bother with tuning as it becomes time consuming and they rather work on twiter/selfie patches instead?

[Raiju]

That's exactly what happened, at least in my guild and most other 25m guilds on my faction and server (the only ones I'm sure of, because I was in contact with them). Not to all of them - some decided to go for 10m already before the addon, maybe due to the reasons you mentioned - but to most of them.

The amount of players leaving us for better 25m guilds or quitting the game was at least 5 times higher than leaving us for a 10m guild.

Every guild on the servers I played (literally every single one) that went 10man did it because they didn't like carrying the weak end. Either as the guild officers or making a new guild without the weak management.

Cataclysm also had no large sub drop in t11- it went from 12-11.4m over 3 months.

[Fenixhart]

Unmitigated Disaster.

Cutting smaller guilds out of the endgame they previously had access to was the dumbest thing Blizzard ever did.

[Echo of Soul]

community which simply do not want to raid in big groups. to the point that blizzard had to force feed players into 20 man because if they were given even tiny choice majority woudl still prefer 10 mans

The only thing that would have made 25-man popular again would've been if the rewards were actually better than 10-man. I think most people would trade a faster gearing process for a more manageable roster and more fun experience to be honest. I think mythic+ is going to be a huge success for much the same reason. I believe most players don't want scheduled large group content.

[Pua]

Depends what metric you use to measure the success of it.

The only worthwhile metric is player participation, which means it's been a calamitous failure.

[Cynep]

Success, definitely.

WoD had huge problems in other areas, but leveling and raids were great. 20-man Mythic raids were great.

[Deleted]

Every guild on the servers I played (literally every single one) that went 10man did it because they didn't like carrying the weak end. Either as the guild officers or making a new guild without the weak management.

Cataclysm also had no large sub drop in t11- it went from 12-11.4m over 3 months.

Then our servers seemed to be fundamentally different in that case.
On a side note, what happened to many guilds: Ultimately, they did disband because of the reason you mention. BUT: They wanted to stay 25 man. They tried to find recruits who can keep up with them. They stayed there for quite some time. But they couldn't keep a roster of a (for their progress, respectively) high quality, so at some point they scaled down. So there is an overlap of the reasons, though it all began with not being able to keep a good raid of 25+ people, not with "let's scale down to 10m, I don't want to carry".

[Jessicka]

I think it worked for BRF where it seemed that there were a lot of unique new things to keep it fresh, but I don't think HFC was innovative enough to continue to carry it. There were a lot of outside factors of course, with there being so little outside of the raid that hit populations hard and really hurting recruitment, but it can't carry itself. In a better supported expansion it would have worked better, but that's the story of the expansion as a whole.

[Delekii]

The only worthwhile metric is player participation, which means it's been a calamitous failure.

Bingo.

Of the players still playing the game, far less are doing high level raiding than ever before. For those that enjoy what it offers, it is apparently universally acclaimed... but then, who actually cares what those players think? They are still playing and don't need to be convinced to keep doing so.

Killing small group sizes in a shrinking userbase is disastrous. Not for any reason that has anything to do with people who keep playing in the bigger group sizes; they would do so anyway.

20 man is a succes. Anything smaller is not an option with 33 specs. 10 man leaves room for 5 dps spots choosing from 21 specs. Sure, optimal class stacking happens always, but the bigger the raidsize, the flexible it becomes. Bring the player doesnt excist.

It might be a success in terms of mechanical prowess, but it means nothing in the context of players enjoying the game. Raiding is catering to the smallest subset of players since the end of BC. But grats, the raids are better! Big whoop.

[Deleted]

I'm ok with 20 man Mythic. Might aswell be 25 though.

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Bingo.

Of the players still playing the game, far less are doing high level raiding than ever before. For those that enjoy what it offers, it is apparently universally acclaimed... but then, who actually cares what those players think? They are still playing and don't need to be convinced to keep doing so.

Killing small group sizes in a shrinking userbase is disastrous. Not for any reason that has anything to do with people who keep playing in the bigger group sizes; they would do so anyway.



It might be a success in terms of mechanical prowess, but it means nothing in the context of players enjoying the game. Raiding is catering to the smallest subset of players since the end of BC. But grats, the raids are better! Big whoop.

Blizzard's greatest mistake of all time is listening to entitled casuals and whiners.

A dedicated minority is what makes a game great, others will flock to it if these people build a great community.