20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[Relapses]

It is not about self entitlement but it is displeasing when you see that the recruitment boss is harder than the raid itself. With comments like that what I see is someone leaving on wonderland, good server population, probably not even having to recruit just loging and raiding and that is the kind of self entitled players on my eyes because everything comes to them on a silver plater.

If we assume the number of players droping from World of Warcraft is a serious problem then we should probably stop with that kind of mentality because in the end more players will stop as they can't get into Mythic Raiding despise having enough skills to do so. In game friends is probably something that keeps players subbed even on terrible expansions and when you deprive players from enjoy the game with their friends odds are those guys will stop playing this game and find another one and sooner or later what will happen is that less and less guilds will get fresh recruits due to the decrease of game population.

If you don't care about the loss of population then keep going your on the right path.

I don't live in a fantasy world. I raided in a 10M guild in SoO that needed to recruit for WoD. We raided from 2:30 AM to 6:30 AM. There does not exist a more difficult time slot for which to recruit players. Yet we still managed to have a very solid roster going into WoD and finished T17 US 89th. I realize this is anecdotal evidence but we had more than a year to prepare our roster for WoD and I think the main reason ex-10HC players feel displaced is because they failed to accomplish this. That sucks, but that's not Blizzard's fault.

[Trifande]

I don't understand how you can complain about the accessibility of raids when there's literally 3 other raid difficulties Blizzard has implemented for players who don't want to commit to Mythic. If anything, that's too many raid difficulties. It's this idea of entitlement that people who prefer smaller raids that's the core issue when discussing 20M Mythic. Blizzard doesn't owe you anything, if you want to hold strong and refuse to raid the hardest difficulty because of your own personal preference, that's not on Blizzard, that's on you.

You seem to be reading into my statement with extremist goggles on.

I don't refuse to raid the hardest difficulty. I have NOTHING against 20 or even 25m Mythic only. All I'm saying is that Blizz should've added tools/support to help the transition be smoother. I even gave examples of tools/support they can implement, one of which was purely removing / abating on the restriction of realm xFers.

You seem like you have a bone to pick with 'casuals', potentially because of some preconceived notion that they are taking things away from you. Try not to let that color your every interaction with others.

[Relapses]

I enjoy how people keep throwing around the word "entitled" to describe people who want 10 man in the same breath that they drone on about how theirs is the chosen difficulty, above the rest and not at all sounding "entitled."

I'm supporting my opinion that a singular raid difficulty for endgame content is better for the game. That isn't entitlement.

On the other hand, demanding Blizzard design raid encounters to cater content for two separate raid sizes sounds an awful lot like it...

[Relapses]

You seem like you have a bone to pick with 'casuals', potentially because of some preconceived notion that they are taking things away from you. Try not to let that color your every interaction with others.

I have a bone to pick with players in 10 HC guilds in Cata/MoP that never had any desire to clear content. They existed just to farm the "easy" bosses and pretend like they were just as good as players who actually cleared content. I dislike that 10M HC gave rise to a player who clearly wasn't good enough to complete a raid tier but still got to enjoy the same rewards of players who were. It's exactly this type of player who seems to be most opposed to Mythic's current design so if I seem a bit extreme in my perspective, that's why.

I realize it's an unpopular opinion as well. I'm not looking to change anybody's mind. But I do believe the game as it is now is far better off for endgame raiding than it was at any point during Cata/MoP.

[Trifande]

Well I mean there is actual evidence for my extremist view...

They bitched that their guilds "forced" them to grind reps to buy gear from vendors... So Blizzard removed all gear from vendors.
They bitched that their guilds "forced" them to run LFR to get sets and trinkets early in a patch because the new tier was much stronger than the previous tier... So Blizzard removed sets and good trinkets from LFR.
They bitched that their guilds "forced" them to run dungeons to get valor to upgrade their gear... So (for a time) Blizzard removed gear upgrades and valor.
They bitched that they needed to reforge their gear... So reforging was removed.
They bitched that they needed to gem and enchant their gear... So jewel crafting was curb stomped and only a few pieces of enchants any more.

That Paladin Tank streamer who partakes in the world first races... Trekkie... He said it best... "If there is a way to improve your gear outside of raiding then the best guilds will force their players to grind it." (Paraphrased-ish)

You seem to be under some misapprehension that each of those changes was requested by the same homogeneous faction of the community. I know it's easy to fall into the trap of blaming the ominous 'them' for all the decisions that Blizz took that changed the game away from the way you wanted it to be, but try and take a step back and realize that the community has a multitude of different voices, each clamoring for their own 'vision' of what Blizz should or should not do. Likewise, Blizz is not a democratic institution, where every time a 'seeming' majority of voices clamor for a change they have to go about and implement it. They make their decisions by their own committee, which may or may not be influenced by voices in the community.

Overall, stop trying to lump this entire discussion into an 'us' v/s 'them'. It takes us nowhere, really quickly.

[diox990]

I think it was a success. While I miss 10 man, I think it's way more balanced now compared to the 25 vs 10 man balance issues (I still remember you Halfus 10H!).

[Trifande]

I have a bone to pick with players in 10 HC guilds in Cata/MoP that never had any desire to clear content. They existed just to farm the "easy" bosses and pretend like they were just as good as players who actually cleared content. I dislike that 10M HC gave rise to a player who clearly wasn't good enough to complete a raid tier but still got to enjoy the same rewards of players who were. It's exactly this type of player who seems to be most opposed to Mythic's current design so if I seem a bit extreme in my perspective, that's why.

I realize it's an unpopular opinion as well. I'm not looking to change anybody's mind. But I do believe the game as it is now is far better off for endgame raiding than it was at any point during Cata/MoP.

It's fine for your to be disgruntled by those kinds of players. Just try and make a conscious attempt not to lump everyone that's not you (or those you know) into that category. Will potentially lead to more interesting discussion, rather than the bandying of (not so) subtle insults and hyperbole.

[coprax]

I personally would like to go back to 25man, a raid group of 20 still feels too small for me.

[I Push Buttons]

You seem to be under some misapprehension that each of those changes was requested by the same homogeneous faction of the community. I know it's easy to fall into the trap of blaming the ominous 'them' for all the decisions that Blizz took that changed the game away from the way you wanted it to be, but try and take a step back and realize that the community has a multitude of different voices, each clamoring for their own 'vision' of what Blizz should or should not do. Likewise, Blizz is not a democratic institution, where every time a 'seeming' majority of voices clamor for a change they have to go about and implement it. They make their decisions by their own committee, which may or may not be influenced by voices in the community.

Overall, stop trying to lump this entire discussion into an 'us' v/s 'them'. It takes us nowhere, really quickly.

Yeah obviously... All those casuals shouting from the rooftops "OMG Blizzard you are giving me way too much good loot, tone it down a bit you are rewarding me way too handsomely!"

Makes sense.

[Toppy]

How are people defending a raiding system that unquestionably has been killing raiding like no other system before, the entire expansion?

A system that has never been well received. Ever. From the very start it was suggested it would tear raiding apart, and shocker, it did.

Mythic has left FAR more people unhappy than it has left them happy. Flex was a very good idea that needed some tweaking and would have done wonders for raiding. Instead blizz took the easy way out and did 20m and hoped that all the mountains of feedback was wrong.

[Magnosh]

I don't understand how you can complain about the accessibility of raids when there's literally 3 other raid difficulties Blizzard has implemented for players who don't want to commit to Mythic. If anything, that's too many raid difficulties. It's this idea of entitlement that people who prefer smaller raids that's the core issue when discussing 20M Mythic. Blizzard doesn't owe you anything, if you want to hold strong and refuse to raid the hardest difficulty because of your own personal preference, that's not on Blizzard, that's on you.

Some servers are not as effective as others on delivering Mythic Raiding and that ends up being Blizzard's fault either for keeping 20 man or for not merging more servers together or just for ignoring this.

LFR is not content for most players, specially after nerfed to the ground.
Normal is a joke but I can see how it ends up being content to others
Heroic is the start of Raiding and Mythic the goal of most raiders.

So realistically speaking for the players who really want to raid there are only 2 difficulties as there were in the past 2 expansions (Normal & Heroic) the difference is that on some servers you can have both on other servers you can't. This was a change not something that was always like this and the change was made by Blizzard not the players.

I don't like raiding on 20 man but I did this expansion, I did mythic until some players got bored of the content and we couldn't find decent replacements but this is no longer the ''I want 10 man back because I liked it more'' its the ''We need another solution for high end raiding because not everyone is willing to spend even more money on this game to move their max level chars and rather stop playing instead of investing real money''.

I really don't care what the solution is, if going back to 10 man, 15 man or just merging servers. What I care about is having either the chance to rebuild a guild or join a guild that suits my available time frame/my friends time frame and where we can progress together. I told the remaining of my guildies to join some of the guilds that were still standing so at least they could keep raiding and those guilds would't end up having lack of players, for some this is not a problem, but I didn't wanted to join any because I wanted a guild where I can start the progress not jump at the middle of it.

I don't live in a fantasy world. I raided in a 10M guild in SoO that needed to recruit for WoD. We raided from 2:30 AM to 6:30 AM. There does not exist a more difficult time slot for which to recruit players. Yet we still managed to have a very solid roster going into WoD and finished T17 US 89th. I realize this is anecdotal evidence but we had more than a year to prepare our roster for WoD and I think the main reason ex-10HC players feel displaced is because they failed to accomplish this. That sucks, but that's not Blizzard's fault.

I raided on a guild that had a 10 man team on SoO HC and a second team of around 7 man + 3 alts from main group also doing SoO HC, 3 nights a week 20:00-23:00 on Wednesday and Friday and from 16:00 to 23:00 on Sundays, this doesn't say much to be honest as people leave from expansion to expansion.

What I can tell you is that the launch was bad for this guild the GM at that time was not ingame due to work, I was not there at launch and things derailed but that doesn't explain the situation for the rest of the guilds in the server that had to disband/move to another server.

I don't know how it works on the US but in the EU besides everything there is also the language factor and some players do not join international guilds which reduces even more the amount of players you can recruit from, our server is paired with a Portuguese server for instance (I have nothing against Portugal, I'm Portuguese myself)

[Lora]

Killed my guild and made it into a heroic guild because adding another 10 people committed to raiding 3 nights a week for 4-5 hours is hard, not because the content was hard. We ending up pugging out mythic runs.

[Alexeht]

The only worthwhile metric is player participation, which means it's been a calamitous failure.

Someone could say the same about Vanilla raiding ...

[Deleted]

Major failure, our guild was casual but still cleared mythic before next tiers release in MoP and Cata, but with failed mergers and lack of good recruits, we couldn't make a steady mythic team all the way through highmaul and brf, we finally ended up throwing in the towel after beating archimonde HC 2 weeks after hfc release, but still short on players for mythic progress.

This day none of us raid, and only 4 of us are even considering raiding in legion. I laugh at the people who say "only weak guilds broke in this expansion", you're the kind of person who contributes so little to your raid that you dont see the massive amount of work that is put in by officers when not raiding. I'm sure you haven't had to "take shifts" recruiting everyday of the week in trade. Or had to seek out and negotiate mergers with other frustrated 10 man guilds. Then having to deal with pissed off players that progress is happening too slow, because the 50% increase in roster came with social challenges aswell as cultural challenges.

This is a game, it shouldn't take so much management just to get into the challenging content. It's enough of a barrier that you have to commit to raiding x hours a week.

See, this is smells of bullshit. If you were good enough, to routinely clear heroic raids in MoP and Cataclysm on a casual schedule before the next raid tier hit, I don't buy that you had such trouble recruiting players. Why? Because I have been leading a 2-day a week raid with good progression and know that niche is actually pretty easy to recruit for (comparably).

But then again, you guys seemed to have started recruitment for mythic only after you were done with the heroic version. Why did you not expand your roster at the end of MoP / start of WoD? Thats what we did (went from 25-man in WotLK to 3x 10 man in Cata to 1x 10 man in MoP to 20 man in WoD) and it wasn't that hard, because we had a history of getting shit done for years - as you claim you had.

But hey, if you know 20-man mythic is coming a year in advance, it sure is Blizzards fault if you start recruiting more players after waiting out that year. You guys simply were too late to the party. Your fault, I am sorry to say.

[stomination]

Depends what metric you use to measure the success of it.

Which most people just throw opinions.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Blizzard's greatest mistake of all time is listening to entitled casuals and whiners.

A dedicated minority is what makes a game great, others will flock to it if these people build a great community.

Yeah, your idea doesn't work. Carbine tried that with Wildstar, and now they've laid off over half their employees and have canceled the release of the game in China. Catering to only the hardcore minority is how you guarantee a MMORPG dies.

[Deleted]

The only worthwhile metric is player participation, which means it's been a calamitous failure.

See, this is just untrue.

3.200 heroic/mytic kills on Garrosh after 14 months of MoP + WoD. Most of them done with 10 player raids.
We are at 1.600 kills on Archimone mythic with 3 months to go and with only 20 man raids.

Seems pretty even, at the end of this expansion this will look even better than the MoP model. And this does not even account for the player base being 50% less than what it used to be in MoP (or even less than that).

So your argument is bullshit.

[stomination]

Big failure, for two main reasons:

1) Less guilds raiding mythic and the switch to a strict 20 man mythic broke guilds up.

2) None of the great mechanics Blizz claimed they were going to be able to incorporate based on the set 20 man limited ever appeared. The raid bosses were good, but they weren't anything really better than mythic bosses when it was flex (and still called heroic). At least I didn't notice a big difference.

If the change to set 20 man mattered, you would have noticed the improvement.

1. Well no shit Sherlock. I suppose when it take 2 10 man guilds to = 1 20 man guild the number is going to go down. Its also very common in every game that there is always less people playing at higher difficulties/ladders.

2.They claimed the would be able to incorporate mechanics without having to wonder how it might be easier or harder in different modes. After all the flak they got from Siege of Org about how certain bosses are easy on x size than y size and vice versa.

I have noticed the improvements and less hotifixes needing to be done because something is harder in 10 man over 25 man or vice versa.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, your idea doesn't work. Carbine tried that with Wildstar, and now they've laid off over half their employees and have canceled the release of the game in China. Catering to only the hardcore minority is how you guarantee a MMORPG dies.

I wouldn't consider 95% of mythic raiders hardcore tho.

[Pua]

Someone could say the same about Vanilla raiding ...

No, they couldn't. The circumstances were entirely different.

[Etselion]

Succes on killing guilds and emptying servers.