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  1. #121
    If this game is going to get into the esports realm, it will be interesting to see what kind of restrictions are placed on hero selection

  2. #122
    Deleted
    One of the points of the game is to come up with a crafty team composition
    Another point of the game is to counter the opposing team composition with one of your own

    There shouldn't be a cap in my opinion, but it can of course be explored by Blizzard and their testers

    Remember folks: THERE'S A COUNTER TO EVERYTHING! You just have to find it.

  3. #123
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by THE DIVINE View Post
    One of the points of the game is to come up with a crafty team composition
    Another point of the game is to counter the opposing team composition with one of your own

    There shouldn't be a cap in my opinion, but it can of course be explored by Blizzard and their testers

    Remember folks: THERE'S A COUNTER TO EVERYTHING! You just have to find it.
    As previously mentioned in the higher skill levels this isn't true, there were a lot of tournament games (for example the gosu ones) where professional teams had mirrorplay nearly every game because of specific stacks being OP at the given time and the only way to play against that stack was to mirror it until heroes used in these stacks got nerfed by blizzard. So this statement is simply not true (as previously noted) but i guess you didn't read through the pages.

  4. #124
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by b4dcrc View Post
    As previously mentioned in the higher skill levels this isn't true, there were a lot of tournament games (for example the gosu ones) where professional teams had mirrorplay nearly every game because of specific stacks being OP at the given time and the only way to play against that stack was to mirror it until heroes used in these stacks got nerfed by blizzard. So this statement is simply not true (as previously noted) but i guess you didn't read through the pages.
    Or perhaps they hadn't found the right counter yet.
    No game is perfectly balanced, but Blizzard will find a way to make the best balance in a game that they can. Be it limit heroes to a certain amount individually, collectively, or by means of nerfing single characters.

    You cannot speak for everyone and the entire game saying; "Oh well the 'pro's did it in a Beta tournament, so that's the way it is."
    It's a creative process and everyone thinks, acts & behaves differently.

    ( I suppose I shouldn't mention that no one can be called a pro yet because the game isn't even out yet. :facepalm: )

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by b4dcrc View Post
    As previously mentioned in the higher skill levels this isn't true, there were a lot of tournament games (for example the gosu ones) where professional teams had mirrorplay nearly every game because of specific stacks being OP at the given time and the only way to play against that stack was to mirror it until heroes used in these stacks got nerfed by blizzard. So this statement is simply not true (as previously noted) but i guess you didn't read through the pages.
    Yeah because its not like the meta develops or anything? These were pre-release tourney's man, the meta still has a long ways to go and even pros don't know EVERY counter.

    Example: Reunited has been dominating on KOTH maps with the double Winston, Double Lucio, Double Tracer team comp. Surefour on Cloud 9 went Bastion and single-handedly changed the tide of the match and Reunited had to switch comps. Its interesting because Bastion went from very niche to being used much more since he hard counters double Winston comps(Which were previously thought to be "unbeatable".

    Vid for proof(1:47:00):
    watch?v=B-UnsT1i1_k(you'll have to type the first part of youtube link yourself because this site won't let me post links :/ )

    C9 ended up having to switch from the Bastion eventually but they did effectively counter the comp mentioned above. If something is dominating after like a month of competitive play then this discussion should be had but until then there is no reason to restrict teams until people have enough time to come up with counters.f

  6. #126
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoidberg747 View Post
    Yeah because its not like the meta develops or anything? These were pre-release tourney's man, the meta still has a long ways to go and even pros don't know EVERY counter.

    Example: Reunited has been dominating on KOTH maps with the double Winston, Double Lucio, Double Tracer team comp. Surefour on Cloud 9 went Bastion and single-handedly changed the tide of the match and Reunited had to switch comps. Its interesting because Bastion went from very niche to being used much more since he hard counters double Winston comps(Which were previously thought to be "unbeatable".

    Vid for proof(1:47:00):
    watch?v=B-UnsT1i1_k(you'll have to type the first part of youtube link yourself because this site won't let me post links :/ )

    C9 ended up having to switch from the Bastion eventually but they did effectively counter the comp mentioned above. If something is dominating after like a month of competitive play then this discussion should be had but until then there is no reason to restrict teams until people have enough time to come up with counters.f
    There's someone with a brain. Kudos to you.

  7. #127
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmityosaurus View Post
    A friend and I were discussing this last night actually. We just watched a final to one of the beta tournaments and one of the teams were running 3 Winston's, it was obviously next to unstoppable for the opposing team. Also it actually wasn't fun to watch, in the slightest. They really need to add a cap on competitive, even if it's 2 per team. It will make the game easier to balance from Blizzards perspective, plus make the game more fun to play for the majority.

    I'd stick to anything goes in normal games though as it's pretty fun to mess around when there's nothing but a win or loss at stake.
    so no one decided to go symetra as her orbs go through shields? 3 symetra all launching balls into the spheres
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    My ideas are objectively good

  8. #128
    Bastion's cannonfire shreds Winston's shield. Outside of his shield his HP is atrocious. He's also pretty much helpless vs Pharah.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
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    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Bastion's cannonfire shreds Winston's shield. Outside of his shield his HP is atrocious. He's also pretty much helpless vs Pharah.
    A good McCree or Reaper can shred him as well.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    Cheese is just a term a group falls on when they fucked up and lost.

    If X group is using Y comp then Z group needs to use A comp. It isn't a cheese its a tatic. Thats like saying basketball players shooting 3 pointers is a cheese. No its apart of the game so l2p it.
    In basketball, only one person can score at a time. So having a whole team of guys who can shoot from fullcourt is pointless. In fact it's worse than pointless because if your whole strat is to threaten from underneath your own hoop then you're too easily defended and the best you can hope for is to hit every shot, trade 3s for 2s, and never foul, otherwise you're screwed. In a game like Overwatch, or CoD, or TF2 if you prefer, everybody has the ball all the time and they can all shoot simultaneously. So having a whole team of (for example) snipers is cheesy, unless they have glaring, easily exploitable weaknesses, to the point where their counter class can 1v5 them.
    OMG 13:37 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Cleave unto me, and I shall grant to thee the blessing of eternal salvation."

    And His disciples said unto Him, "Can we get Kings instead?"

  11. #131
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by THE DIVINE View Post
    Or perhaps they hadn't found the right counter yet.
    No game is perfectly balanced, but Blizzard will find a way to make the best balance in a game that they can. Be it limit heroes to a certain amount individually, collectively, or by means of nerfing single characters.

    You cannot speak for everyone and the entire game saying; "Oh well the 'pro's did it in a Beta tournament, so that's the way it is."
    It's a creative process and everyone thinks, acts & behaves differently.

    ( I suppose I shouldn't mention that no one can be called a pro yet because the game isn't even out yet. :facepalm: )
    This was literally not a case of countering a certain comp but of certain synergies being too OP and leading to stacking. Winstons barrier got pretty much cut in half a day after a tournament by a nerf because it was stacking too much which hasn't been noticed before because 1 winston was pretty much fine with the bigger barrier and after that zenyattas orb got changed because double tracer or double genji with perma orb were uncontrollable by anything but mirrorplay, which again would have probably been fine if it wasn't two flankers but one that had the orb.

    I am not speaking for everyone, i'm simply stating a fact, there have been hero comps that have stacked in a ridiculous way and got nerfed not because imbalance in the hero per se, but because of the way they stacked when used in multiples. The stacks are giving exactly zero to competitive play and are making it harder on the watchers to follow the gameplay which is a no go in esports as well as making matchups generally more dull, this is my opinion.

    I call them pros because most of the players have been pro gaming in other games for years so yeah the game isn't out yet but you can be pretty sure that reunited and co. will be there playing in the competitive scene after the game releases as well so that's what they are. so go facepalm somewhere else.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoidberg747 View Post
    Yeah because its not like the meta develops or anything? These were pre-release tourney's man, the meta still has a long ways to go and even pros don't know EVERY counter.
    Sure it develops and it will continue to do so, but so far there have been already nerfs based off of the synergy of stacking heroes and not because a hero by itself needed it, which i personally dislike.

    Example: Reunited has been dominating on KOTH maps with the double Winston, Double Lucio, Double Tracer team comp. Surefour on Cloud 9 went Bastion and single-handedly changed the tide of the match and Reunited had to switch comps. Its interesting because Bastion went from very niche to being used much more since he hard counters double Winston comps(Which were previously thought to be "unbeatable".

    Vid for proof(1:47:00):
    watch?v=B-UnsT1i1_k(you'll have to type the first part of youtube link yourself because this site won't let me post links :/ )

    C9 ended up having to switch from the Bastion eventually but they did effectively counter the comp mentioned above. If something is dominating after like a month of competitive play then this discussion should be had but until then there is no reason to restrict teams until people have enough time to come up with counters.f
    [/QUOTE]

    Ah ok, first i'm gonna say this, because it is a petpeeve of mine. Surefour has been accused of cheating multiple times during this beta alone and i watched the video because i was curious if something looks strange again, look at the snapping of the camera while he gets spectated before and after he goes into tank mode on the fight where reunited takes over the point...... every single time someone arguments about bastion being used or something being countered it's literally every single time because of a play of surefour (look up my other posts, seriously every time someone argued a point with me about something and tried to prove it,it was with a video of surefour). So i will take that with the appropriate grain of salt tbh.

    But yeah i'm glad they switched things up. Now I'm gonna say the same thing the commentators said basically "FINALLY THEY SWITCHED OFF OF 2x2x2 vs mirrorplay" because it got SO much more exciting to watch just because of the amount of diversity the hero switches brought into the game. watching the double winston double lucio double tracer vs double winston double lucio double tracer on the control point before that was a fucking tedious clusterfuck, to be honest this alone is enough to make me want a 1hero per team limit imo. Also as soon as the point fell C9 went back to double winston double lucio double tracer (ugh). In any case we will see after release how they will handle stacking synergies etc. and if either blizzard themselves or tournament organization or league organization will put a custom hero limit on their events (like the esl had for a while).

  12. #132
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Spl4sh3r View Post
    I agree on this for random/ranked matches. However I think it should still be allowed for custom.
    To be honest the opposite makes more sense - People in ranked play should be aware of how to counter cheese, however your Average Joe that randomly signs up for a game might not have the insight and might find it super frustrating to fight 6x the same hero or 3 bastions guarded by a shield and healing.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I've seen Cloud 9 pick a no tank team in a final round of hots tourney and lose so yeah, maybe you should stop hero worshiping people who are capable of making bad calls. I'm no pro and I immiediately winced when I saw them lock in with no tank.
    You are smart enough to know that it's not the same people playing hots and Overwatch right?

    Also I'm not saying Overwatch is the next great esport, but if you mention hots and serious esport in the same sentence you make a lot of moba fans rofl

  14. #134
    Elemental Lord Spl4sh3r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cellineth View Post
    To be honest the opposite makes more sense - People in ranked play should be aware of how to counter cheese, however your Average Joe that randomly signs up for a game might not have the insight and might find it super frustrating to fight 6x the same hero or 3 bastions guarded by a shield and healing.
    Custom is when you make your own game against people you invite, meaning no randoms will ever join it. So why shouldn't multiple of the same heroes be allowed in that? And the reason I don't want it for random and ranked is because it will most likely turn into the meta and everyone will ALWAYS play the same hero even if you start countering them.

  15. #135
    Pit Lord Mrbleedinggums's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chesder View Post
    I will never respond to the statement of "stop being bad"

    When you have two teams of equally skilled players, sometimes hero-stacking is unbeatable. A couple of really good tracers can devastate a team no matter the skill level.
    You keep thinking that. You're still bad if you don't know how to counter a group of tracers though. Nothing is unbeatable unless it's determined by the skill (or lack thereof) of the players.
    "Why of course the people don't want war…. But, after all… it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

  16. #136
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    I always chose a champion no one else was using.

    Feels weird when I play the same as someone else on my team.

  17. #137
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrbleedinggums View Post
    You keep thinking that. You're still bad if you don't know how to counter a group of tracers though. Nothing is unbeatable unless it's determined by the skill (or lack thereof) of the players.
    double winston double tracer double lucio from reunited, pretty much winning every game on KotH maps. they lost to c9 who mirrorplayed the same comp but no one else afaik.

    So AGAIN in competitive double stacks proved to be actually problematic as well as extremely tedious to watch and it's not a l2p issue, it's just the synergy of certain comps for certain mapmodes

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by b4dcrc View Post
    double winston double tracer double lucio from reunited, pretty much winning every game on KotH maps. they lost to c9 who mirrorplayed the same comp but no one else afaik.

    So AGAIN in competitive double stacks proved to be actually problematic as well as extremely tedious to watch and it's not a l2p issue, it's just the synergy of certain comps for certain mapmodes
    Luminosity and C9 both beat that comp with Bastion as I mentioned before. Try again.

  19. #139
    Old God Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoidberg747 View Post
    Luminosity and C9 both beat that comp with Bastion as I mentioned before. Try again.
    Sounds about right. Bastion absolutely destroys Winston and doesn't really have much trouble with Lucio and Tracer.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    Sounds about right. Bastion absolutely destroys Winston and doesn't really have much trouble with Lucio and Tracer.
    Pretty much. Ive also seen TVIQ counter that comp. with Pharah and Seagull with Genji(aided by a mercy ofc). Those are more map dependent though.

    Edit: Don't take this to say that the comp. isn't the best comp for Control. It is, but it's not unbeatable.
    Last edited by Zoidberg747; 2016-05-22 at 03:19 AM.

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