Page 14 of 69 FirstFirst ...
4
12
13
14
15
16
24
64
... LastLast
  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Yggdrasil View Post
    It certainly was. Let's see.. we had MORE tiers of raiding. We had MORE people raiding.

    Sounds pretty fucking productive to me. Not to mention we still have 2 sizes. Flex and Mythic. Sorry buddy I know you like the current setup because it's working for you. I do too. It's working for me as well. But over all it's shit. Sorry to burst the bubble.
    You're using a poor metric to define the success of raiding. There were undeniably more people raiding in 10M HC guilds but not because it was better, but because it was easier to organize. You're not bursting my bubble on anything because I personally believe the quality of the raid itself should always usurp the participation levels. WoD, by and large, had much better tuned encounters than anything in MoP/Cata and I'm personally glad they did away with a design philosophy which required them to make two versions of the same thing.

    You can disagree with me on this point if you'd like, but the fact that Mythic is sticking around for Legion speaks volumes for what the developers feel as well.

  2. #262
    Immortal TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Texas(I wish it were CO)
    Posts
    7,512
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Designing encounters twice for two raid difficulties was never a perfect compromise, regardless of your progression. There was always one version of the same encounter that was harder/easier than the other and the endless 10v25 debates which it brought about were hardly productive for the community.
    The only people engaged in the 10v25 debate are the same bloody idiots who whine whenever something is changed to make them feel less special. They are the same tiny bunch of people that whine over the Ulduar drake still being obtainable, the only people who give a shit about them are those obsessed with how others perceive them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    You're using a poor metric to define the success of raiding. There were undeniably more people raiding in 10M HC guilds but not because it was better, but because it was easier to organize. You're not bursting my bubble on anything because I personally believe the quality of the raid itself should always usurp the participation levels. WoD, by and large, had much better tuned encounters than anything in MoP/Cata and I'm personally glad they did away with a design philosophy which required them to make two versions of the same thing.

    You can disagree with me on this point if you'd like, but the fact that Mythic is sticking around for Legion speaks volumes for what the developers feel as well.
    Well the previous way stuck around for like 3 expansions so don't line up your pats on the back yet. But honestly the who, whats, and whys don't matter in production. More raids and more raiders is more production. Even the reasons they said they moved to it make zero sense. So we know you have all the classes argument. Well shit I remember half the fights getting 5 to 10 boomkins in. Or next to no fights that really required a class. Tuning was decent for a few fights but many were still loose as fuck.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    I'm fine with it not being balanced to be honest.
    I had more fun in the smaller raid groups we had in Cata and MoP. Some bosses might be harder that way and it would be fine if it was balanced around 20 man anyway but you could actually do it with 15-16 players.

    Another issue with todays system is that you can do normal and hc with more than 20 people but once you move up to mythic there will be that guy that didn't make the cut, not because he's bad but because theres just no spots left. It's not a good system and I'm pretty sure that it'll drive people away from mythic more than it'll make people enjoy it.

    I love the flex system for raids but I'd rather they removed it if it's not there for all difficulties.
    Well back in Cata you had some fight that simply weren't doable for a long while on for example 10 man (Halfus wyrmbraker) till they nerfed it, which sadly took some time.
    And IMO the big issue with the balance of the 2, is you can end up being stuck on a boss, that be a lot easier and doable on the other difficulty.
    Let's take blackfuse one of the hardest fights in SoO Heroic. On 10 man you had a lot more space, the bombs were tuned way to low on health and you could have a single hunter or Warlock handle the belt (one of the biggest issues of the fight) given you comparable a lot more people on the floor and no people who had to move to the belt from the raid group on the floor.

    And it depends on what you find fun of cause. I personally love to be challenged, and I'd say that Mythic adds to this. Since you can balance the fights a lot easier, they can make fights "as hard" as they want to.

    Regarding the 1 guy who didn't make the cut, you can't have a raid roster of exactly 20 people, This is a utopia that i haven't seen at least happen yet. you need a bigger roster, since duo to real life stuff, some people will not be able to make a given raid. we haven't at least had issues with keeping a roster of 25-28 people and keep those people happy.
    It also makes it possible to bring a certain class for a given fight if need be. What we've been doing is pretty much just rotating people, which after a short time wasn't a issue since we'll have players who doesn't need anything from a given boss. So we often rotate from boss to boss, or can give the option to some people to sit out if they're not feeling well or need to spend some more time on their studies.

    But i can see your point with Flex, and i can see why it've been a good addition. I just can't see it being it for Mythic I must admit. I think i would find it better if they just weren't so slow with adding content and raids.

    I think they need to Merge the servers, like other MMo's have done. I think this would make it a lot easier when it comes to recruitment in general. They need to try to make all their servers have enough "active" players on.
    Last edited by Neevs; 2016-05-19 at 03:29 PM. Reason: forgot

  5. #265
    Are you Rob Kazinsky?

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Tincjin View Post
    Well my small guild always has to pug at least 3 people, so our mythic progression goes kinda slow.

    It's nor a success nor a failure it just needs polishing .
    I agree on this point. I think if Blizzard designed an in-game UI for guild recruitment -- perhaps something similar to OpenRaid -- it would go a long way to resolving many of the problems players have with the current system. There will still be players who prefer smaller raids but I think most players would be happy with the opportunity to raid, period, especially if they're not currently. And for those players, there's an endless CMode version of instancing in Legion which may help placate this niche. (And the rewards are similar to raiding, too.)

  7. #267
    Banned SLSAMG's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Vila nova de gaia
    Posts
    2,010
    The WotLK raid model was the best model imo.

  8. #268
    Elemental Lord
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    8,527
    Failure from my POV, yes those who liked it did like it a lot, but it has had an overall negative effect on the raid scene.

    The big problems were, the way I see it:

    1: The 20m format did nothing positive for for raiding. Yes it meant we got one whole encounter that couldn't have been done in 10m as it required a priest (Blast Furnace) however that mechanic was lifted from Naxx40 and had already been replaced in Naxx10 by a much better one.

    2: It killed many guilds and made it harder to raid mythic causing many players to stop bothering, yes it can be argued that "it's supposed to be hard, hurr hurr" but the actual encounters were no more difficult than the mythic ones seen since WotLK, the thing that made it harder in WoD was the recruitment boss, which just subtracted so much fun/enjoyment from raiding.

    3: Many people cited things like Wildstars 40m raiding as a reason Blizz needed/had to do 20m etc, but Wildstar failed and went F2P, mostly because of that format. 10m high end raiding was something that only WoW provided, now WoW provides nothing that other MMORPGs don't, this is something I believe will hurt it in the long run as the 10m mythic playerbase was by far bigger than the 25m mythic playerbase and this exclusion of most of the mythic playerbase has hurt the raiding scene and the popularity of the game. Between SoO and HFC 66% of the mythic playerbase quit which cannot be blamed on the sub loss as that was only 33% of the playerbase from SoO to HFC, which means that the expansion that was called "raid or die" by many, actually lost mythic raiders at double the % rate it lost players (not inc the big player spike at the start obv).

  9. #269
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Under construction
    Posts
    14,631
    I'm pretty happy with 20 man. I'm not entirely happy with the difficulty curve in HFC, but that is definitely another topic.

    Flex feels okay, but I have little to no interest in the flex difficulties. I can imagine it's nice for the more casual guilds who don't always have a consistent roster though.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Neevs View Post
    Well back in Cata you had some fight that simply weren't doable for a long while on for example 10 man (Halfus wyrmbraker) till they nerfed it, which sadly took some time.
    And IMO the big issue with the balance of the 2, is you can end up being stuck on a boss, that be a lot easier and doable on the other difficulty.
    Let's take blackfuse one of the hardest fights in SoO Heroic. On 10 man you had a lot more space, the bombs were tuned way to low on health and you could have a single hunter or Warlock handle the belt (one of the biggest issues of the fight) given you comparable a lot more people on the floor and no people who had to move to the belt from the raid group on the floor.

    And it depends on what you find fun of cause. I personally love to be challenged, and I'd say that Mythic adds to this. Since you can balance the fights a lot easier, they can make fights "as hard" as they want to.

    Regarding the 1 guy who didn't make the cut, you can't have a raid roster of exactly 20 people, This is a utopia that i haven't seen at least happen yet. you need a bigger roster, since duo to real life stuff, some people will not be able to make a given raid. we haven't at least had issues with keeping a roster of 25-28 people and keep those people happy.
    It also makes it possible to bring a certain class for a given fight if need be. What we've been doing is pretty much just rotating people, which after a short time wasn't a issue since we'll have players who doesn't need anything from a given boss. So we often rotate from boss to boss, or can give the option to some people to sit out if they're not feeling well or need to spend some more time on their studies.

    But i can see your point with Flex, and i can see why it've been a good addition. I just can't see it being it for Mythic I must admit. I think i would find it better if they just weren't so slow with adding content and raids.

    I think they need to Merge the servers, like other MMo's have done. I think this would make it a lot easier when it comes to recruitment in general. They need to try to make all their servers have enough "active" players on.
    I, to like the challenge but I don't see how 20 man adds more challenge in any way. If anything, it makes the fights easier as you have room for every spec thats needed.

    What I liked about the smaller groups was that they were more personal. We were all IRL friends and it made the conetnt more fun.
    Being forced to get a few random people in is fine of coruse but it doesn't make the raids more fun.

    You're right, you can't have a raid team of 20, you have to have a team where some people just aren't going to raid each week. With flex that would not be an issue however and thats one of the best things about that system.

    Flex would be a good addition if it was there for all levels of raiding. As it is now, it servers no purpose.

  11. #271
    Elemental Lord
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    8,527
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    There were undeniably more people raiding in 10M HC guilds but not because it was better, but because it was easier to organize.
    Raiding difficulty should be dictated by how hard the encounter is, not because of how hard it is to organise. That's like saying harder games should have longer load times. WoD did not lose over half the mythic playerbase because it's encounters were just as hard as they have always been, it lost over half the mythic playerbase because most of it was 10m players and when given the option of 20m or nothing they chose nothing.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    I, to like the challenge but I don't see how 20 man adds more challenge in any way. If anything, it makes the fights easier as you have room for every spec thats needed.

    What I liked about the smaller groups was that they were more personal. We were all IRL friends and it made the conetnt more fun.
    Being forced to get a few random people in is fine of coruse but it doesn't make the raids more fun.

    You're right, you can't have a raid team of 20, you have to have a team where some people just aren't going to raid each week. With flex that would not be an issue however and thats one of the best things about that system.

    Flex would be a good addition if it was there for all levels of raiding. As it is now, it servers no purpose.
    The problem with Flex Mythic is that whatever raid size is perceived easiest will always be used for progression. For example, boss 1 is easiest with 17 people, boss 2 is easiest with 13, boss 3 is easiest with 19, boss 4 is easiest with 16. That'd be a logistical nightmare multitudes of times worse than what we have right now.

  13. #273
    Deleted
    People could also choose to play a singleplayer game if they prefer to deal with as less people as possible.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    The problem with Flex Mythic is that whatever raid size is perceived easiest will always be used for progression. For example, boss 1 is easiest with 17 people, boss 2 is easiest with 13, boss 3 is easiest with 19, boss 4 is easiest with 16. That'd be a logistical nightmare multitudes of times worse than what we have right now.
    If you're in one of the top guilds, sure. But lets be fair here, most aren't.

    Again though, this is not a big issue but it's a bit disappointing in my opinion.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    The problem with Flex Mythic is that whatever raid size is perceived easiest will always be used for progression. For example, boss 1 is easiest with 17 people, boss 2 is easiest with 13, boss 3 is easiest with 19, boss 4 is easiest with 16. That'd be a logistical nightmare multitudes of times worse than what we have right now.
    Turn it on after the 'race' is over, when legendaries are allowed in anyway and any sense of hardcore progression is gone.

    Afterall which is worse for mythic hellfire - legendary ring or flex?
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Raiding difficulty should be dictated by how hard the encounter is, not because of how hard it is to organise. That's like saying harder games should have longer load times. WoD did not lose over half the mythic playerbase because it's encounters were just as hard as they have always been, it lost over half the mythic playerbase because most of it was 10m players and when given the option of 20m or nothing they chose nothing.
    It's a MMO not a single player game, I have no idea how load times has any bearing on raid difficulty in a game where raiding itself is predicated on playing with other people. As for endgame raiding losing "half" of its playerbase... for the reasons I've mentioned in other posts, I believe the people who left were never actually raiders to begin with. I realize this is a No True Scotsman argument but it's my personal opinion if raiding meant as much as people like to say it did, I feel they would have done whatever it took to continue raiding.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    I, to like the challenge but I don't see how 20 man adds more challenge in any way. If anything, it makes the fights easier as you have room for every spec thats needed.

    What I liked about the smaller groups was that they were more personal. We were all IRL friends and it made the conetnt more fun.
    Being forced to get a few random people in is fine of coruse but it doesn't make the raids more fun.

    You're right, you can't have a raid team of 20, you have to have a team where some people just aren't going to raid each week. With flex that would not be an issue however and thats one of the best things about that system.

    Flex would be a good addition if it was there for all levels of raiding. As it is now, it servers no purpose.
    Flex mythic would just made it so guilds would use cookiecutter number of players for EACH boss. So if it would be easier with 10 - they would go with 10, or if it would be easier with 30 they would go for 30 players, same if "magic" number would be 10 mages and 2 paladins (etc, etc). 20man Mythic have been made so Blizzard can easier balance encounters, and it did work! People bitching about how it is hard to gather 20 people - just play on heroic! Or find new guild. Or make your own guild.

    IMO 20man Mythic is not an issue - real problem is having only 2 raid tiers per expansion ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    black people have no power, privilege they cannot be racist since they were oppressed
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Men are NOT suffering societal hardships due to being male. That doesn't exist in most 1st world countries.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Turn it on after the 'race' is over, when legendaries are allowed in anyway and any sense of hardcore progression is gone.

    Afterall which is worse for mythic hellfire - legendary ring or flex?
    The problem is that for them to "turn it on" the encounters would need to be designed with Flex difficulty in mind from the beginning thereby inhibiting the developers from creating mechanics tuned for a fixed raid size.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    The problem is that for them to "turn it on" the encounters would need to be designed with Flex difficulty in mind from the beginning thereby inhibiting the developers from creating mechanics tuned for a fixed raid size.
    Ah yes, all those mechanics in wod that couldn't be done on flex. Despite the only ones that aren't already tuned that way are the mythic only mechanics, and nothing even comes to mind provided the flex group is mindful of their comp.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  20. #280
    From the designers perspective I imagine it was a success, they get to put significantly less time and effort into mythic and are potentially less constrained when designing mechanics since they can just exclude mechanics that don't scale down well from lower difficulties.

    That said I don't believe it did what they told us it set out to do. I'm just not seeing any benefit on the player end, there was what... one class specific mechanic in 3 tiers? I'd say the encounters weren't significantly better tuned than prior to the change either. And with the amount of player power they shower on us now the tuning is out the window. Any semblance of the fights being tightly tuned died around august when people got their legendary rings.

    Players in my guild generally preferred 25 over 20, 20 puts constraints that just don't feel good coming from a 25 man. Its nowhere near as simple as just dropping 5 people. Just the same the existence of 10 man didn't exactly offend me as a 25 man guild, I had no problem with the mode existing alongside 25 man. I as well as many of my guild mates would prefer they go back to the old 10 / 25 split as opposed to continuing with 20 man.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •