[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[Sxq]

Anything that has to compete with with twist of fate will seem bad... I really think that ToF should be baseline (maybe nerfed by 5-10%) because that playstyle of executing minions and keeping ToF buff is clearly super core to the current and future iteration of shadow. Give us some room to actually have real talent choices in that row while preserving the ToF playstyle. Buffing other talents is meh too, because either they are buffed so hard they become the default choice, or they're not buffed enough and ToF is still better. I guess you could make a similar statement about other strong talents, but ToF is basically strong in all situations so it doesn't really give room for niche talents to flourish around it.

Not even just for Legion, but in WoD it was the ONLY talent that I never switched. Every other talent row had at least 2 choices that were viable in different situations, or at least different patches. ToF was always the best choice for everything.

I don't have Legion access and haven't closely followed everything, so maybe there's only one good choice for most talents in Legion.... but I'd be surprised if it's as one sided as ToF always is.

[snaxattax]

I mean you can make a similar argument about half our talents as far as pve dps effectiveness goes, so.

[Ilir]

I feel like Shadow Word: Void would be fine if it was just a talent to give Mind Blast three charges and maybe an additional 5 Insanity per cast. Replace the MB-has-charges legendary with something else.

Basically this. I never really liked this spell because it always was a shitty MB in my opinion. I want a legendary that interacts with SWD or our pets.

[Ifritx]

... I really think that ToF should be baseline (maybe nerfed by 5-10%) because that playstyle of executing minions and keeping ToF buff is clearly super core to the current and future iteration of shadow.

I second this lol

[Theed]

From a pvp perspective Shadow Word: Void will be the best choice in in most situations.

[Kretan]

From a pvp perspective Shadow Word: Void will be the best choice in in most situations.

Really? I disagree. I was running twist of fate a lot because I found that if I could cast I had no issues getting to void form quickly even without shadow word void, but if I couldn't cast there's no point in getting a cast time spell in the first place. Aside from that, we will likely be running legacy of the void barring a buff to mind spike, and getting 60 insanity is extremely easy/fast.

A 20% damage buff on execute is colossal to me especially when you can proc it off of shadow word pain on pets combined with instant spreading of shadow word pain to a million targets. I don't think shadow word void gets you anywhere near the strength of twist of fate personally.

[Romanticide]

I'd like to see SI proc Void Bolts instead (in and out of Voidform).

[Aeriel]

I'd like to see SI proc Void Bolts instead (in and out of Voidform).

Why? MB has a longer cooldown, and higher dpct. VB's refresh mechanic would not be consistent enough to add targets beyond 4/5. Casting dots outside of VF is fine since that is your build-up rotation, and your time outside of VF is typically short enough that if you cast VB to start VF you rarely drop dots on primary target.

[Tanned]

From a pvp perspective Shadow Word: Void will be the best choice in in most situations.

SW:V is the best insanity generator by far in PVE of the three. Current Sims don't use it correctly. I haven't quite worked out what Voidform uptime is worth in terms of DPS.

There is an important feature of Void Torrent that a lot of people miss. It is always 4 seconds long. It gains ticks with extra haste, meaning it is a one minute CD that benefits a lot from properly leveraging your buffs and Voidform stacks.

[Isentropy]

I tried gaming it like that Tanned, many times, and while it felt like a fun thing to do it didn't actually net me any significant damage increase versus just using it on cooldown. Especially in raids where saving it for late Voidform isn't something you can reliably do because of boss mechanics (obviously depends on the boss), using it as soon as possible seems like the appropriate way to use it. Delaying it a couple of times could also mean losing a Void Torrent over the course of a fight which is obviously not worth it.

[Theed]

Really? I disagree. I was running twist of fate a lot because I found that if I could cast I had no issues getting to void form quickly even without shadow word void, but if I couldn't cast there's no point in getting a cast time spell in the first place. Aside from that, we will likely be running legacy of the void barring a buff to mind spike, and getting 60 insanity is extremely easy/fast.

A 20% damage buff on execute is colossal to me especially when you can proc it off of shadow word pain on pets combined with instant spreading of shadow word pain to a million targets. I don't think shadow word void gets you anywhere near the strength of twist of fate personally.

You are talking about random bgs and not competetive arena where nothing can be planned perfectly and you don't chain cast. Most pvp situation require fast actions and on demand/command burst switches. If you require more than 2 seconds to get into void form in these situations it will be bad Thats why SW:V will be the best choice in any competetive environment. You haven't played in any competetive environment on alpha/beta realms.

[Aeriel]

I tried gaming it like that Tanned, many times, and while it felt like a fun thing to do it didn't actually net me any significant damage increase versus just using it on cooldown. Especially in raids where saving it for late Voidform isn't something you can reliably do because of boss mechanics (obviously depends on the boss), using it as soon as possible seems like the appropriate way to use it. Delaying it a couple of times could also mean losing a Void Torrent over the course of a fight which is obviously not worth it.

Would you say that it is better to use VTor immediately in the first VF, or wait so that it will typically be available later in each subsequent VF?

[Theed]

You are talking about random bgs and not competetive arena where nothing can be planned perfectly and you don't chain cast. Most pvp situation require fast actions and on demand/command burst switches. If you require more than 2 seconds to get into void form in these situations it will be bad Thats why SW:V will be the best choice in any competetive environment. You haven't played in any competetive environment on alpha/beta realms.

Also who the hell cares about scoreboard damage? Spread SWP even with AS is not enough to create huge amounts of AoE pressure to the healers. It does nothing but push your overall damage. That's not what kills anything in WoD and it will be even worse in Legion. Burst is everything.

[Kretan]

You are talking about random bgs and not competetive arena where nothing can be planned perfectly and you don't chain cast. Most pvp situation require fast actions and on demand/command burst switches. If you require more than 2 seconds to get into void form in these situations it will be bad Thats why SW:V will be the best choice in any competetive environment. You haven't played in any competetive environment on alpha/beta realms.

No one has played in any competitive environment on alpha. It's all theorycraft.

But that's the point....you can't chain cast. I don't see where shadow word void adds more value than a 20% damage buff in an environment where you A) can't chain cast and B) Void form is very easy to get in to even without shadow word void. If you can't chain cast, why do you think you'll be allowed to cast shadow word void where it's major benefit comes from chain casting while outside of void form? If you can chain cast, getting to void form isn't a concern so shadow word void is diminished, or you can't chain cast so shadow word void is diminished because it's unused. Aside from that, you will get void form passively from driven to madness in 12 seconds. Even beyond that, lingering insanity makes getting void form extremely fast. Getting to void form isn't a problem to me, and taking shadow word void doesn't help you when locked down.

I also imagine shadow will play in a significantly more rot oriented style than in the past few expansions. Playing this shadow priest like it's still a part of a god comp burst set up is going to be very sub optimal in my eyes. I imagine a meta for shadow where you dot the world and your partner bursts hard pushing someone in to sub 35% range to get a huge boost with twist of fate.....20% is a massive damage boost. Beyond that benefit, one of the weaknesses of a rot comp is lack of execute, and twist of fate is a major boost to execute.

- - - Updated - - -

Also who the hell cares about scoreboard damage? Spread SWP even with AS is not enough to create huge amounts of AoE pressure to the healers. It does nothing but push your overall damage. That's not what kills anything in WoD and it will be even worse in Legion. Burst is everything.

No the point isn't scoreboard damage. It's that it's very easy to snipe anything that drops below 35% with a single global to put SWP on everything. With as high of an up time as we get with void form, not being able to plan burst in those up times is a learn to play problem imo. If your team is so bad they can't plan to something as easy as that, then I don't know what to say.

I think shadow is going to be playing more like LSD than god comp in Legion....we aren't bursting people down in a stun anymore with our real kill window inside of psyfiend + void torrent. (if we end up taking psyfiend over void shift)

Also, we are hugely a dot/rot spec.....how can you say having one of our dots up isn't a huge deal? Our entire meta is going to be dot up time on multiple targets for spread rot pressure.....something like 30% of our damage is dots in pve, and that is likely to be MUCH higher in pvp because like you said, we can't chain cast to get as much void form up time for void bolts. If our dots can't spread rot a team when combined with void bolts for added pressure, we are in serious trouble for competitive 3v3. In WoD we got ahead with huge burst in stuns/horror, but without CC like that in legion we are forced to get ahead through damage/reduced CC.

On top of all of this, you say burst is everything yet in your own alpha videos with 3v3 you highlight the extreme rot capability of shadow by zooming in on the health bars of the team in certain cases....sure burst is what ultimately kills, but I don't think we are setting up from 100% hp on the target anymore and dots are a massive deal now to put people behind. And with any rot comp you have people sitting at pretty low hp pretty often....boosting twist of fate's up time.

[Theed]

TLDR

I'm not going to start another heated discussion with you. It is my prediction as a 9x glad pvp shadow and from my experience on alpha. I'm not saying ToF is a bad choice all the time. I'm saying SW:V will be the prefered choice. Because it is on demand insanity and your playstyle become 1000x more flexible. If legion pvp meta is anything like WoD where kill windows are very short and flexibility on your burst is needed SW:V is better.

I can see ToF beeing used in Shadowplay like comps and RBG spread damage comps. I would love to play shadowplay again but Shadowplay hasn't been a tier 1 comp since Cataclysm and i doubt it will return in Legion.

[Kretan]

I'm not going to start another heated discussion with you. It is my prediction as a 9x glad pvp shadow and from my experience on alpha. I'm not saying ToF is a bad choice all the time. I'm saying SW:V will be the prefered choice. Because it is on demand insanity and your playstyle become 1000x more flexible. If legion pvp meta is anything like WoD where kill windows are very short and flexibility on your burst is needed SW:V is better.

I can see ToF beeing used in Shadowplay like comps and RBG spread damage comps. I would love to play shadowplay again but Shadowplay hasn't been a tier 1 comp since Cataclysm and i doubt it will return in Legion.

Why does it have to be a heated discussion? Why not just refute points? "I got glads" isn't an argument for what shadow word void gives. This is an alpha discussion thread where we can debate without it having to be an echo chamber of one opinion or a slug fest of insults.

I don't think shadow word void gives you any more flexibility at all. If you're trained you struggle to get maximum void form up time (shadow word void won't fix this), and if you aren't trained you can go 0 to void form in seconds (shadow word void does nothing for you). What additional flexibility does shadow word void give you in any situation? Getting someone to 35% is very easy....and 20% damage buff has a WAY bigger impact than what little (if anything) shadow word void gives. Just getting to void form a few seconds faster doesn't open massive burst..it opens up stronger rot.

Do you think we are going to burst in a stun in Legion? I don't think we have the capability anymore for that level of burst in a global or two, and our ability to rot is way better than our ability to burst. Twist of fate fixes a lot of weaknesses in rot style dps, and shadow word void fixes almost nothing if you communicate with your team properly. I see shadow as a class in comps where you see someone dying a long way off compared to what we have today in god comp where you don't give any chance to react.

[snaxattax]

Why does it have to be a heated discussion? Why not just refute points?

because you seldom make points as opposed to mindless cheerleading.

shadow isn't tanky enough for a non burstwindow style of play. if our burst isn't 'bursty' enough, the answer won't be to figure out some sort of ridiculous 50 minute win condition double healer comp that can keep a priest alive, it'll be to not play a shadowpriest in 3s.

[Kretan]

because you seldom make points as opposed to mindless cheerleading.

shadow isn't tanky enough for a non burstwindow style of play. if our burst isn't 'bursty' enough, the answer won't be to figure out some sort of ridiculous 50 minute win condition double healer comp that can keep a priest alive, it'll be to not play a shadowpriest in 3s.

Did you miss the rest of my post? The entire thing is filled with points. You mistake points you disagree with "mindless cheerleading". Irregardless my points:

1) Shadow word void doesn't help when trained
2) When not trained shadow word void doesn't have a large impact because void form is easy to slip in to
3) 20% twist of fate helps with a rot comps inability to execute

Also, I agree that shadow's defensives may not be good enough for the style of play it is strongest at. That's a real concern I have for shadow's viability in 3s. We aren't set up to burst to the degree we can on live so we need long games. Long games means dampening. Dampening means less survivability for self heals. But this whole point is completely different than the debate at hand. Not sure why you brought it up at all.

Either way, like I've asked you specifically multiple times, attack my points not me. I'm open to debate.

[Theed]

Did you miss the rest of my post? The entire thing is filled with points. You mistake points you disagree with "mindless cheerleading". Irregardless my points:

1) Shadow word void doesn't help when trained
2) When not trained shadow word void doesn't have a large impact because void form is easy to slip in to
3) 20% twist of fate helps with a rot comps inability to execute

Also, I agree that shadow's defensives may not be good enough for the style of play it is strongest at. That's a real concern I have for shadow's viability in 3s. We aren't set up to burst to the degree we can on live so we need long games. Long games means dampening. Dampening means less survivability for self heals. But this whole point is completely different than the debate at hand. Not sure why you brought it up at all.

Either way, like I've asked you specifically multiple times, attack my points not me. I'm open to debate.

Yet you are the one claiming it a L2P issue to support your argument. Multiple times in this thread.

It's pointless i won't discuss anything with you.

[Yvaelle]

Kretan, listen to Theed - I hold his opinion on Shadow PvP higher than my own opinion, and I'm both the Shadowpriest & PvP forum moderator.

Responses to your points:
1) ToF doesn't help when trained either. Big executes are nice, and they do help to secure kills, but Void Form is stronger. Uptime on ToF doesn't matter, it's all about - when you have that brief window of opportunity - and you have the burst to make it a kill: being able to get into Void Form at that moment counts for a lot - and if they get into Death range, people often die anyways because there are so many execute abilities now (in which case ToF is overkill, and 'does nothing').


2) Getting into Void Form randomly is not the goal for PvP, the moment you aren't trained (which usually means your teammates just pulled off their CC chain) - you need to be into Void Form and Void-murdering the kill target - because you likely only have a couple GCDs before their CC chain will end and you will be trained again. Getting into Void Form in 2 GCDs is worth 100x more than getting into it in 5 GCDs: because it gives you 3 more GCDs of Void Form damage during your kill window. That's the difference between a kill and a near-miss - and winning in Arena is all about overcoming the Near-Misses, to perfect the Kill.

"Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades." - is the old expression


3) Actually a lot of rot comps are quite good at executing - Shadowpriests have always had some of the bigger executes in the game, and Unholy DKs are no slouches either. In the past Affliction's Drain Soul was quite strong, though it may not be much in Legion (but I suspect Affliction will be overpowered in Legion arenas, so you'll see no tears from me for Drain Soul). Execute damage hasn't often been a rot comps problem (and, given we're talking Spriests here - has never a Spriest-based rot comps problem).

Rots are a good talking point though - because they explain precisely the problem that Theed is getting at. The reason Spriest rot comps rarely work - is because so much of our CC breaks on damage now, but to rot effectively, we need to DoT everything. Without CC, we don't survive - without DoTs we can't rot. Rots only succeed when the enemy healer can't keep up with our damage - but in a world where healers can heal to full in a single (sometimes instant!) cast in Arenas - this is a difficult endeavour.

Rots thrived back when we had Drain Mana - the process was at the time three parts, 1) Rot everything, 2) Drain Mana / Mana Burn the healer, 3) dispelling our DoTs was tedious (1-2 at a time) and painful (strong dispel deterrents on UA / VT). Without our mana draining spells, and weaker dispel deterrents, the effectiveness of rot comps declined significantly - almost vanished spare a few portions of a couple seasons. Ever since then, the dominant path to victory in Arenas has been burst-oriented. You stick CC on the healer (and you have to know it will hold before you commit), and then you have a couple seconds to kill someone or watch them return to full health.