Upcoming talent change gutting

[Deleted]

Uh, I've been 13/13M since over half a year, and been raidtesting on alpha / beta now.

No, my guild even killed Xul'horac Mythic without any rogues and deathknights to cheeze the black holes. No definitely not every mythic guild does that, even my old world top #3 guild (years ago) didn't do that.

The majority of mythic guilds definitely don't make sure they have the perfect class setup for every boss either. They're often happy to do it "with what they have", and "what they have" is good enough. Mythic isn't -that- demanding when it comes to class or spec setup. There already is a large margin to let people play whatever they want / got.

There's a huge difference with working what you've got and can't change and allowing team members to perform sub-par when they don't need to. I mean, I am fairly sure your guild wouldn't have tolerated people on a progress night to not have flasks/pots/runes/food...would they?

The talent change is like that - it will not change behaviour at all: people in raids outside of LFR will jump through whatever annoying little hoops there are to switch talents around, and outside of raids, except Mythic+, most people will pick a best all rounder off Icy Veins

Guilds don't usually minmax classes because they don't have them and having people level up and gear up multiple chars to raid level is far too onerous. They do however expect the team members to optimise their spec/class

It's entirely reasonable and expected in a guild, even in normal and heroic modes, to bring consumables and to pick suitable talents. Even to switch specialisation.

As has been endlessly pointed out the talent system in Legion is obviously built with switching in mind from the ground up. You don't take away baseline abilities and repeatedly put situational talents on the same tiers so that they mutually exclude each other without drawing that conclusion.

That's why deciding to put in extra hoops to jump through when people want to change talents after designing the talent system to more or less require them to change talents sucks.

We've already got plenty of "identity" in the classes. I think people in raids - the only place talents will really matter - care a hell of a lot more about maximising their contribution to the team effort and maximising performance than they do about thinking how great it is to be a single-target special snowflake

Playing affliction in AOE situations it was neve rmuch comfort thinking how great it was at single target. It just felt sucky to be rubbish at AOE.

[deadman1]

You have to be purposefully misreading everything, because I literally just said that.

---

Ok, sure he's condescending, but his message is still there.


Would be a decent argument against it if it wasn't for the fact you can...

I know you can use one of those tomes ... but he didn't or at least he didn't in his response. I was not responding to the legion mechanic I was responding to his hyperbole with more hyperbole.

I'm don't with this conversation, I've been saying the same thing over and over and your posts don't change what happened TWO DAYS AGO.

[Accendor]

I have the feeling that his change will drastically decrease the flow of raiding. E.g. while progressing before each boss the whole group will just port to Dalaran, change talents and come back. And as long as the boss is not on farm status the group will have to do that again and again every time they arrive at a new boss. I don't know, that just feels very frustrating to me, because I will now spend half of the raid getting back to the instance.

Edit: And no, the item will not really help because you usually change your talents many times when you progress and if the cost for that item is too high for constant use for a single person it will also be too high to drop it between each pull.

[Mafic]

Slowing down player progression using gimmicks is the same trick they tried in WoD.

Players are not against gating mechanisms, soft/hard caps on currency, or even waiting for a daily/weekly timer.

But nickel and diming a players time with trivial things is what will cause a massive backlash.

[Deleted]

Yeah, surely it's obvious that the intention is to slow progression down and to increase the requirement to grind world content for mats and/or gold.

It all adds up to more hours played for practically no effort or expense for Blizz.

[Tharkkun]

feasts cost a lot more than 2k start of expansion generally. Once again - before hte mop-wod inflation.

Feasts were around 100g on my server. Within a month they were given away for free because every single person had a barn. We drew pictures with them in Highmaul.

[Mafic]

Yeah, surely it's obvious that the intention is to slow progression down and to increase the requirement to grind world content for mats and/or gold.

It all adds up to more hours played for practically no effort or expense for Blizz.

Yup.

Recently Vanta runes were changed to offer Versatility +. That to me is going to cause a lot of interesting discussions in the weeks to come. Pointless timesinks for little gain.

[Raiju]

Feasts were around 100g on my server. Within a month they were given away for free because every single person had a barn. We drew pictures with them in Highmaul.

I hope I shall have such feast wealth on a populated server this time around

[Deleted]

The gold cost makes no sense. You just throw money in the air and poof your talents are gone? No.

I'm happy we don't have to carry reagents anymore as well, but instead we pick talents and go adventure until we visit a safe place again. Being able to change talents on the fly means we are forced to change talents all the time because that's how it's designed. If you don't do it, you know you are playing it wrong, it was very annoying.

I welcome this change

[Deliverer]

The gold cost makes no sense. You just throw money in the air and poof your talents are gone? No.

I'm happy we don't have to carry reagents anymore as well, but instead we pick talents and go adventure until we visit a safe place again. Being able to change talents on the fly means we are forced to change talents all the time because that's how it's designed. If you don't do it, you know you are playing it wrong, it was very annoying.

I welcome this change

why are you forced to change talents all the time? did you even read some comments on this thread? if you don't want to change talents don't do it and i assume you don't raid so this change won't affect you at all

[striderZA]

Yeah, surely it's obvious that the intention is to slow progression down and to increase the requirement to grind world content for mats and/or gold.

It all adds up to more hours played for practically no effort or expense for Blizz.

Tinfoil hats ready yo

[zrvnavi]

just take talents out of the game, they dont serve a purpose anymore. All they do is appear to add depth to the game, when in fact they literally do nothing

[TheLimonTree]

I know you can use one of those tomes ... but he didn't or at least he didn't in his response. I was not responding to the legion mechanic I was responding to his hyperbole with more hyperbole.

I'm don't with this conversation, I've been saying the same thing over and over and your posts don't change what happened TWO DAYS AGO.

Next time don't get offended when someone presents your hyperbole with a fact that agrees with you then

[deadman1]

Next time don't get offended when someone presents your hyperbole with a fact that agrees with you then

I'm not offended, I just don't see the need to talk about a hyperbolic statement out of context.


Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding what you are getting at, that's entirely possible, if that's the case, help me understand.

[Tharkkun]

I hope I shall have such feast wealth on a populated server this time around

This was on a low pop server. Our server economy is like living in Africa.

[Gorthezar]

I get your point. But who has there hearth set to dal? My main hearth has been set for the shrine since it has all the major portals unless ofcourse you're lvling out in northrend. :P

Well I was mostly talking about the new "Dalaran Hearthstone" that people have on beta. I also have my hearth set to Shrine lol.

[TheLimonTree]

I'm not offended, I just don't see the need to talk about a hyperbolic statement out of context.


Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding what you are getting at, that's entirely possible, if that's the case, help me understand.

I was just following up with your hyperbole with sarcasm, sorry if that was confusing.

[Deleted]

The gold cost makes no sense. You just throw money in the air and poof your talents are gone? No.

I'm happy we don't have to carry reagents anymore as well, but instead we pick talents and go adventure until we visit a safe place again. Being able to change talents on the fly means we are forced to change talents all the time because that's how it's designed. If you don't do it, you know you are playing it wrong, it was very annoying.

I welcome this change

You will be forced to change talents much more in Legion - they are designed that way. Look at the talent trees, baseline abilities made talents (warlocks, for example, have to choose between mobility and survivability, because teleport/burning rush/shield are all talents now, and they are mutually exclusive.)

And AOE/cleave/single target enhancing talents are all on the same tiers, so they are mutually exclusive too. Affliction, for example, is going to be godawful at AOE without Sow the Seeds. But that talent is utterly useless in any other situation, whereas the ones that it shares the tier with are useless for AOE - and so on.

You didn't really need to change talents much in WoD, because the design philosophy was to make them play style choices, most of them were pretty much equivalent to each other and it didn't really matter which ones you picked, they were more "flavour of play" than anything. That was Bliz' stated intention, to make all of the talents equally attractive so that players could chose a style without being penalised and without feeling they had to pick a cookie-cutter talent choice from Icy Veins and stick with it. For affliction I didn't change talents much except to take Cataclysm for AOE where it was worth it (which wasn't very often at all)

But the Legion talents aren't like that at all. They are clearly designed to make you change them around to fit the situation. So we have the design that forces you to change talents all the time, bu makes it much harder to do so. You will have to jump through hoops that add nothing whatever to the game, except annoyance. In WoD, we had mostly trivial talents that you didn't have to change very often, if at all, and yet it was remarkably painless to do that.

You idea of picking talents, having an adventure then coming back to a safe place sounds fine. In practise in WoW it means pick talents and then either jump through annoying little hoops to switch talents before the next boss, or accept you will perform like crap.

So as we all know, raiders will simply jump through the hoops, outside of raids (except Mythic+ dungeons) talents don't mean shit, so non-raiders can pick a best-all-rounder off Icy Veins and never change it.

" If you don't do it, you know you are playing it wrong, it was very annoying."

If you aren't doing it, you're still playing it wrong, except now playing it right will be three times as annoying.

Talents are now much more important, have a much bigger impact on situational play (i.e. every single raid boss) and sticking with one talent build across multiple bosses will be very bad. Unless the raid wings are designed very badly so that encounters are monotonously similar to each other.

The only result of this change is to more or less force raiders to carry the reagent or to have mass hearthstoning and summons - repeatedly. How's that better that in Draenor?

It's obviously just a time-sink, and a rubbish one. Basically design talents in such a way as to hugely encourage players to switch them around all the time, then introduce a profoundly unfun time-sink cost to doing that.

When I first saw the Legion talents my very first thought was that Bliz were going to have to include a tool that allowed players to retrieve talent builds because it was blindingly obvious they were designed to make you want to change them around a hell of a lot more than any previous expansion.

Then we got this.

As to the "tinfoil hats" comment earlier, rubbish. Everything in the game is designed to increase hours played. Why do you think we have flying instead of instant teleports? Why do we already have a whole bunch of consumables for raids?

Because virtually no-one actually finds gathering stuff or the professions fun. But they do find raids fun, and to perform well in raids, you have to have consumables, and to have consumables, someone somewhere has to run around clicking on herb icons or whatever and level up alchemy.

Or they have to grind some other content to generate the gold to pay another player to do that stuff.

They're just time-sinks. And the talent switch cost will certainly act to slow raids down in any one run, with hearthing/summoning, and/or greatly increase the requirement to grind in world content for the reagents

It's a very cheap way of "keeping world content relevant" as the jargon goes.

More hoops to jump through=more gametime logged. It's all a calculated balance between keeping players logging game time but not introducing so much boring stuff that players give up and unsub.

[BiggestNoob]

http://www.wowhead.com/news=253081/l...7-data-updates

Data is also in about the "safe spaces" required to change talents without a special consumable: NEW ERR_TALENT_FAILED_REST_AREA: You must be in a rest area to change talents

Blizzard moving forward with safe spaces. Get ready: http://www.wikihow.com/Tie-a-Noose

[Jagorath]

Also, Wartome of the Sharpened Mind, dunno if crafting cost is placeholder or not :

200 light parchment, 10 sallow pigment (from milling), 100 roseate pigment (from milling).