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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Cebel View Post
    Thats why we have these things called forums. Go to wowprogress, look for guilds that interest you that speak your language. etc.

    You have no one to blame but yourself for wasting money.
    Ok dude

    A new player has his friends and everything is fine at Burning Blade, then suddenly by the end of Wrath the server starts to be overrun with Polish or whatever, most of the friends either stop of move, I move damn it! probably should have stopped playing wow because it was my fault for being new at the game and for people abandoning ship while the server was being overrun.

    Grim batol was great when I moved there, was great until WoD. Again my fault for not being able to predict the server would become a ghost town in WoD, shouldn't have moved here. It was all over the forums that guilds would disband and which servers would become ghost towns.

    Or wait, maybe it was not predictable and some players just got the short end of the stick while others didn't. In the end and the only thing that matters is that we all pay the same subscription fee and some have nice servers others don't and Blizzard doesn't care about it because they can grab more money out of players if they ignore that servers going down is a result of their changes either the ones we discuss here or because the general quality of the expansion.

  2. #362
    Banned Cebel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnosh View Post
    Ok dude

    A new player has his friends and everything is fine at Burning Blade, then suddenly by the end of Wrath the server starts to be overrun with Polish or whatever, most of the friends either stop of move, I move damn it! probably should have stopped playing wow because it was my fault for being new at the game and for people abandoning ship while the server was being overrun.

    Grim batol was great when I moved there, was great until WoD. Again my fault for not being able to predict the server would become a ghost town in WoD, shouldn't have moved here. It was all over the forums that guilds would disband and which servers would become ghost towns.

    Or wait, maybe it was not predictable and some players just got the short end of the stick while others didn't. In the end and the only thing that matters is that we all pay the same subscription fee and some have nice servers others don't and Blizzard doesn't care about it because they can grab more money out of players if they ignore that servers going down is a result of their changes either the ones we discuss here or because the general quality of the expansion.
    You're still not comprehending my statements.

    Dont move to a server because of shit like " oh it HAD a population ", move because you have friends there, or because you have a new guild youre joining that has proven to be stable, good, and been around for a LONG time.

    Servers are USELESS at this point. Theres no community on 98% of servers, so you need to move to where your friends are, or where your guild is. Period.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Cebel View Post
    You're still not comprehending my statements.

    Dont move to a server because of shit like " oh it HAD a population ", move because you have friends there, or because you have a new guild youre joining that has proven to be stable, good, and been around for a LONG time.

    Servers are USELESS at this point. Theres no community on 98% of servers, so you need to move to where your friends are, or where your guild is. Period.
    What you are not understanding is that for a while (some years) I had that on those servers. But in the end players stop playing. I had my own guild I made friends and I still have friends we just couldn't find players to get a stable team for Mythic. What I'm saying is that I will have pay to move to play Mythic while others don't despiste paying the same monthly fee as me.

  4. #364
    Banned Cebel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnosh View Post
    What you are not understanding is that for a while (some years) I had that on those servers. But in the end players stop playing. I had my own guild I made friends and I still have friends we just couldn't find players to get a stable team for Mythic. What I'm saying is that I will have pay to move to play Mythic while others don't despiste paying the same monthly fee as me.
    You couldnt find players... more like you didnt try hard enough to find players. But please continue to read your sob story about how you were hindered because of blizzard, rather than doing whatever you had to do.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Cebel View Post
    You couldnt find players... more like you didnt try hard enough to find players. But please continue to read your sob story about how you were hindered because of blizzard, rather than doing whatever you had to do.

    Please go back and read my posts on this topic instead of looking clueless. But its fine this is like talking to a wall.

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    I think people are witnessing Blizzard continually produce better and better raids and, unsurprisingly, coming to the conclusion that because the raids in WoD were largely an improvement over the raids in MoP that this is somehow directly related to the raid size.

    The reality is HM, BRF and HFC would've been amazing raids no matter what size they'd gone with because, well, they're simply getting better and better at designing raids. As someone who hasn't done HFC (M), even I can see that HFC is miles and miles beyond some of the timeless classics like BT or ICC (mechanically speaking, of course, nobody is as sicknasty as the Lich King).
    Because that's all they largely do any moe design raids. Nobody is surprised they got better at it it's the only fucking content they make.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #367
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    Long post inc.

    From my Point of View, it has allowed the option of seeing Class specific Mechanics be useful in Raids (Blast Furnace MC). I understand it is somewhat better tuned, and there's no debate between 10/25 Man being the 'real' World First.

    However, it does have some flaws, the first being Flexible Numbers for every other difficulty means that if you have more than 20 who want to Raid some people have to be benched/rotated, whereas with flex you take what you want. Also there is a reliance on specific classes for Cooldowns and Abilities, when you may not be able to get someone of that Class (DK's for Mannoroth, Rogue's Smoke Bomb).

    Ultimately, I was in a 10 Heroic Guild in MoP. I joined in ToT, had a great time, and we progressed into Mythic a little in ToT and got up to Blackfuse Mythic 10, which felt almost impossible. When the WoD/Mythic 20 changes hit, we began to run SoO 20 Mythic Giggles and slaughter Garrosh for Kor'kron Annihilators (Lucky me).

    Anyways, we decided to push Mythic in WoD. We made 3/7 in HM, 2/10 in BRF and 5/13 in HFC. Ultimately, there was a Guild breakdown, accompanied by a struggle to recruit new Members and also people being bored of the Expansion/Raid. I would assume that since HM there has been over 40 people at one point or another in the Roster, and have left for various reasons. We obviously tried to recruit Cross Realm, posted in game and the Forums, updated WoWProgress and so on. Unfortunately, a crap half dead server and struggling to put out a Raid Team every week doesn't attract Players, and the Guild fell apart and essentially split.

    I see the Guild in two halves now. The original Guild has a few core Players who are barely logging WoW every other Week and plan to Raid 10 Heroic in Legion. The other Group has reformed as Horde on a new Realm with a Casual Heroic Aim for Legion. Neither group wants Mythic now, and as such WoD ended the Mythic Dream.

    Was it a success? For bigger Realms, for difficulty, for tuning, yes. For the smaller Realms, the 10 Heroic Guilds, the Friendly Guilds and others, no. It's now just a barrier between Heroic and Mythic, that is much bigger than it was in MoP. Obviously, I've seen the downside. I still want to do it. But to do it I have to leave every Player I've enjoyed playing with over the last few years behind and potentially pay (or level) to move to a new server with more life and more options.

    43 Guilds killed a Mythic Boss in HM or BRF on my Server. 29 Guilds killed a Mythic Boss in HFC. Of those 21 I know of at least 5 who are no longer Raiding. Mythic has crushed around half of those Guilds on our Servers dreams of the highest difficulty. I'm concerned that without a Realm Merge it will drop again.
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  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by GetREAL View Post
    Huge failure. When the hardest boss in the game is the attendance boss you know that the format is fail.
    The hardest boss in the game has ALWAYS been the attendance boss, even for 10 man groups. The format has so very little to do with it.

  9. #369
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    All these anecdotal stories of their guild falling apart meaning the 20-player format is a failure kek

    It was a raging success for what Blizzard aimed for with it; tightly tuned raid bosses.

    Not Blizzard's fault your 20 players couldn't beat the bosses.
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  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bootybear View Post
    All these anecdotal stories of their guild falling apart meaning the 20-player format is a failure kek

    It was a raging success for what Blizzard aimed for with it; tightly tuned raid bosses.

    Not Blizzard's fault your 20 players couldn't beat the bosses.
    I feel like you somehow don't understand that many of us didn't have 20 players in guild, and that the recruitment pool on non-high pop servers has been in severe decline throughout the entirety of WoD.
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  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    I feel like you somehow don't understand that many of us didn't have 20 players in guild, and that the recruitment pool on non-high pop servers has been in severe decline throughout the entirety of WoD.
    And if you wanted to commit to Mythic, you would've found a new guild to raid in. Just like the rest of the players who moved from 10man to 20man to commit to Mythic.
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  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bootybear View Post
    And if you wanted to commit to Mythic, you would've found a new guild to raid in. Just like the rest of the players who moved from 10man to 20man to commit to Mythic.
    True. Similar to the past format changes, guilds fall apart and guilds are built, while some players drop raiding.
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    Unsub or sub later. Give Blizzard feedback, "vote" with money.
    Give feedback through official channels → quit paying.

  13. #373
    I will start off by saying this is my opinion only but i see it as a failure.

    I raided in classic and BC and was an officer in a server first 25 guild all through ICC heroic. I left that guild just before the launch of Cata to form my own 10 man group. I did this to be able to raid difficult with my family and the group of friends ive developed over the years, as well as to no longer have to tolerate the people whom i felt were a utter waste of oxygen as human beings just because they were good raiders. From that point till the launch of WoD we downed every available boss on heroic and while it was no fun we managed to slowly build up the numbers to continue raiding mythic but it isnt nearly as fun as it used to be.

    I raid because I enjoy the challenge of the fights not the challenge of managing the roster, for those that enjoy working with the big groups thats fine but it sucks that those of us who prefer the feeling of a tight knit unit had to have that taken from us.

    A lot of people seem to be saying that 10 man was popular due to being easier but i promise you there where many if not most of the 10 man raiders who were in that setting because it was simply more fun for them. Yes it killed a lot of 25 man guilds when the option for a challenging 10 man raid was opened up however the exodus from 25 wasn't due to some difficulty disparity but because those raiders wanted to tackle the most challenging content and were not in love with the large raid sizes.

    Yes fights are tuned very well at the moment and that likely has a lot to do with the fixed raid size, however I would gladly trade that and then some in order to have challenging content I could with my 10 man. I successfully made the transition to 20 man but raiding lost something in the process, I want to feel like part of that elite team again tackling a challenge even the heroes of our world couldn't accomplish not part of a mob waving our pitchforks at some big bad

    Like i said thats my just my opinion and before its said I dont wanted the larger format removed, there are plenty of people who really prefer the larger amount of people and that gives them a larger more epic feel to the raid and I think they should be able to keep that. Plus i know just how it feels to have your preferred method to enjoying the hardest content in the game taken away from you and I wouldn't wish that upon anyone.

  14. #374
    I wouldn't know. The ability to put together 20 people proved insurmountable for my guild until cross realming was enabled. The combination of raid size, my server size, a dwindling player base, and our raid times proved difficult. In heroic any time we got beyond 15 raiders we lost one or two.

    I'd blame our raid times (we end at 10pm eastern time) the most, but most other guilds on our server that run at common times were in the same boat.

    I like the 20m format as a player. Group sizes made it epic enough, and as these have all been solid raids this expansion, the ability to tailor your mechanics better apparently worked. But as a raid leader/guild officer trying to defeat the rostermonster? Very frustrated.

    They really need to either merge more servers, allow cross realm mythic much earlier, or do something to account for losing more than half of their player base soon.
    Last edited by Cathbadh; 2016-05-20 at 05:11 AM.

  15. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bootybear View Post
    And if you wanted to commit to Mythic, you would've found a new guild to raid in. Just like the rest of the players who moved from 10man to 20man to commit to Mythic.
    Heroic is too easy and Mythic would've required me to leave all my friends, and you see no problem with Blizzard creating that situation?
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  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    Heroic is too easy and Mythic would've required me to leave all my friends, and you see no problem with Blizzard creating that situation?
    As has been said before in this thread.

    The attendance boss has been around since long before WoD. Hardest content has always been an "adapt or die" scenario, stop acting like 20man is anything different.
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  17. #377
    This change from my point of view has several facets:

    1. Regarding the balancing of the encounters - it was a change long welcome. I mean there was never really a balance between difficulties on 10 man and 25 man heroic. Before. And they were not going to reach this balance in WOD. So they decided to make a 20 man well balanced raid. Good job on this blizzard.
    2. Regarding the communication required between a larger group of people - this change is also perfect from my point of view. I really miss the old bigger guilds. From the 25 man raid times, or even from the 40 man raid times. Yes it was a pain in the ass to organize, but the guilds had a much more epic feel. The amount of communication required to succeed was higher. But maybe this is just me.

    All the dungeon finders, garrisons, smaller raids, have taken a big amount of communication of the game. Up to the mythic raiding you can really play this game as a single player one, without actually speaking to anyone.
    It is not the way this game should be played.

  18. #378
    Unmitigated failure.

    Just compare some of the statistics from wowprogress between the previous expansion and this one.

    Guilds that killed Heroic Ra-Den as of the end of T15 (September 10 2013): 4795
    Guilds that have killed Mythic Archimonde as of today: 1599

    Keep in mind that this tier has been going on for 11 motnhs while 15 lasted 6 months. It is not too inaccurate to say that Three times as many guilds cleared T15 than in T18 in half the time. Let's assume that EVERY guild in T15 was 10 man: that means 47950 people killed Ra-Den. This is of course an underestimate because several of those guilds were 25 man. In comparison, 31980 people have killed Mythic Arhimonde. So even when underestimating the amount of people who raided in T15 AND giving almost double the amount of time to T18 there is still a 33% drop in the participation.

    Siege of Orgrimmar looks on the surface to be more in-line with HFC since it lasted a similar amount of time and 3193 guilds killed Garrosh, but that's a big outlier considering Garrosh was one of the most difficult raid bosses ever on 10 man and most of the guilds were 10 man. 4808 guilds killed Klaxxi, the boss right before Garrosh.

    So any misinformed posts about how guilds falling apart must be anecdotal like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bootybear View Post
    All these anecdotal stories of their guild falling apart meaning the 20-player format is a failure kek

    It was a raging success for what Blizzard aimed for with it; tightly tuned raid bosses.

    Not Blizzard's fault your 20 players couldn't beat the bosses.
    ...are just that: misinformed. Guilds ARE falling apart and raiders, i.e. the demographic that should have the HIGHEST retention in WoW, have left en masse.

    I keep hearing these starry-eyed nostalgic Vanilla WoW acolytes in this thread talking about how we went 20 man because larger raid sizes are more "epic" (a description which conveniently for them can't actually be quantified) and more like Vanilla. They failed to take into account the fact that we have had 10 man raiding since 2008. Smaller raid sizes were not only added due to overwhelming player demand, but they stayed that entire time due to their success and reception. Forcing players up to 20 man in 2014 was a misinformed and stupid decision; it didn't take into account the majority opinion and instead opted to listen to a minority of players from MMO-champion. The same demographic was listened to on flying and we all saw how that turned out. Sadly it's clear from general developer arrogance that that the only way to make Blizzard change their minds on anything these days is to have an outcry as large as that for flying, and there just aren't enough raiders to generate that (especially since a significant amount of them have straight up given up on the mess that is mythic raiding).

    Let's not also forget that both Final Fantasy 14 and Star Wars: The Old Republic have 8-man raiding. It is clear that raiders in MMOs want smaller raid sizes. It's generally more enjoyable to have a closer-knit group of friends rather than being forced to take a lot of extra people. Higher raid sizes will have a higher likelihood of drama. Higher raid sizes have a large organizational overhead and a harder "attendance boss" which often overshadows the difficulty of actual raid bosses. You'll want to sit down for this one: higher raid sizes tend to be EASIER since individual mistakes have lower impact (just look at fights like Garrosh).

    And sure, some people actually like the larger raid sizes. That's why there was a choice to go 25 man or go 10 man. I saw someone use the word "compromise" to describe the new system. The PREVIOUS system was the compromise; the new system is the epitome of the anti-player-choice stance that Blizzard has been taking for the past few years (flying, garrisons, legion talents, etc).

    Finally, the sheer desperation that Blizzard's acolytes on these forums never fails to amaze me. One of the consequences of the clear raiding exodus I detailed above is that there is a greater and greater reliance on server transfers (how convenient for Blizzard!) as a server's raiding population bottoms out, as it has done for so many servers. Existing guilds need recruits to transfer over while raiders migrate to more populated realms to seek better and more plentiful raiding guilds there. You would think that would be yet another reason to say that the failure of mythic 20 man raiding is just that, but apparently people have other ideas:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cebel View Post
    Low pop servers are blizzards fault, but not mythics fault.

    Move servers. Its 25$. Its not a fortune.

    However blizzard does need to merge servers, cause theres zero point to having servers with no on on them.
    So there you have it. You get to watch all your fellow raiders over the year leave one by one since, as it turns out, people don't like being forced to a higher raid size. You get to take part in the endless struggle of recruitment and turnover that comes with larger raid sizes. You get to watch your server's raiding population bottom out as people abandon the sinking ship that is mythic raiding, further worsening the recruitment problem. These are all direct results of Blizzard's decisions, yet here we are rewarding them by paying for server transfers to fix their mistakes. And here people like Cebel are cheering this all on. How much self loathing do you have to have as a consumer to actually be fine with being screwed over like this? To not only be fine with it but to claim you enjoy it and you are benefiting from it? Go ask people like Cebel because I don't have the answer.

  19. #379
    Banned Cebel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post

    So there you have it. You get to watch all your fellow raiders over the year leave one by one since, as it turns out, people don't like being forced to a higher raid size. You get to take part in the endless struggle of recruitment and turnover that comes with larger raid sizes. You get to watch your server's raiding population bottom out as people abandon the sinking ship that is mythic raiding, further worsening the recruitment problem. These are all direct results of Blizzard's decisions, yet here we are rewarding them by paying for server transfers to fix their mistakes. And here people like Cebel are cheering this all on. How much self loathing do you have to have as a consumer to actually be fine with being screwed over like this? To not only be fine with it but to claim you enjoy it and you are benefiting from it? Go ask people like Cebel because I don't have the answer.
    Lol, you literally just spewed so much shit all over it, its unreal. People quit the game because theres nothing to fucking do outside of raiding. A small portion of the playerbase raids, the people quitting isnt because of the raid size. You cant actually be fucking serious right?

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Bootybear View Post
    As has been said before in this thread.

    The attendance boss has been around since long before WoD. Hardest content has always been an "adapt or die" scenario, stop acting like 20man is anything different.
    Classic pro-Blizzard zealotry. Blizzard makes shit decisions and you, as players, must deal with them. No, you can't call them out on their bullshit, you simply must deal with them and all their negative effects and continue to watch the game circle the drain as Blizzard's arrogance only gets larger the more they fuck up. When in doubt, blame the players!

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