Casualization is the biggest problem wow: True or false

[primalmatter]

It doesn't unless you just like blanket statements. I play casually and have cleared high-end content and played arena at a high level. Casual doesn't mean bad just lack of time or playing for fun instead of trying to burn through content as fast as possible.

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No, they lost a ton of content and got it replaces with garbage. That comment was about wod not mist because that expansion had a ton to do when compared to warlord's.

What content was it they lost? I know but I honestly wonder if you do...

[thunterman]

I play casually and have cleared high-end content and played arena at a high level. Casual doesn't mean bad just lack of time or playing for fun instead of trying to burn through content as fast as possible.

Same, I play about 10 hours a week, I raid for 9 of them. My guild still lands somewhere between 500-1000 on rankings, we are better than allot of guild that raid twice the amount of time as us.

[Tomana]

EVE online still has hundreds of thousands of people that play. All on one server. Can't get any more hardcore.

I know, I play it. Still, from a financial standpoint, it's a niche game at best (last reported revenue figures for CCP were around ~80M$)

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

What content was it they lost? I know but I honestly wonder if you do...

18 Scenarios with their own unique stories. It was also updated every major patch.
Brawlers guild and it was updated every major patch.
A daily zones per patch we only got one this expansions. We got timeless isle, and isle of thunder last expansion. We might've gotten more but to lazy to look that up.
Mist launched with actual daily quest instead kill x amount of mob for reputation grinds.
Mist had more world bosses.
New class and race but we did get model updates.
Three new battlegrounds and Two new arenas. We got did get Ashran in warlord's.
More mounts and battle pets.
Professions bonus got removed. Not really content just kind of salty about it.

Garrison was also the worst idea ever. Tillers was more balanced but Class halls are more interesting.

[primalmatter]

18 Scenarios with their own unique stories. It was also updated every major patch.
Brawlers guild and it was updated every major patch.
A daily zones per patch we only got one this expansions. We got timeless isle, and isle of thunder last expansion. We might've gotten more but to lazy to look that up.
Mist launched with actual daily quest instead kill x amount of mob for reputation grinds.
Mist had more world bosses.
New class and race but we did get model updates.
Three new battlegrounds and Two new arenas. We got did get Ashran in warlord's.
More mounts and battle pets.
Professions bonus got removed. Not really content just kind of salty about it.

Garrison was also the worst idea ever. Tillers was more balanced but Class halls are more interesting.

Ah so you do not know...

Casuals lost their progression paths... Look at vanilla,tbc,and even wrath.

They lost their ability to progress at a measured rate instead it rained loot and left them with nothing to do...

Till your eyes are open you can not fix the problem.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Ah so you do not know...

Casuals lost their progression paths... Look at vanilla,tbc,and even wrath.

They lost their ability to progress at a measured rate instead it rained loot and left them with nothing to do...

Till your eyes are open you can not fix the problem.

Most people weren't max level during those expansion's and most weren't raiding. They might have been doing world content but that got gutted in warlord's. They were left with nothing to do because warlord's had less than half of mist content at best.

[primalmatter]

Most people weren't max level during those expansion's and most weren't raiding. They might have been doing world content but that got gutted in warlord's. They were left with nothing to do because warlord's had less than half of mist content at best.

Starting to see the bigger picture.

Think about it for a bit tbc is my preferred example. What did hitting level cap at tbc look like even if you never intended to raid? What did WoD look like?

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Starting to see the bigger picture.

Think about it for a bit tbc is my preferred example. What did hitting level cap at tbc look like even if you never intended to raid? What did WoD look like?

Dungeons, heroic dungeons, dailies, daily zones, new starting zones, new races, reputation grind(killing x amount of mobs), world pvp hubs, world pvp objectives, new battleground, profession bonuses, professions perks like weapons, and arenas.

Wod lack content which was my original point...

[primalmatter]

Dungeons, heroic dungeons, dailies, daily zones, new starting zones, new races, reputation grind(killing x amount of mobs), world pvp hubs, world pvp objectives, new battleground, profession bonuses, professions perks like weapons, and arenas.

Wod lack content which was my original point...

No... WoD didn't lack content it actually held more...

The problem with WoD was you out geared everything in a day. Through lfr,garrisons, and other sources of easy gear everything was made trivial and pointless.

Casuals need a progression path and it can not be max level into lfr then done. Blizzard needs to rebuild the slow and steady crawl like tbc has.

WoD wasn't lacking it was structured horribly.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

No... WoD didn't lack content it actually held more...

The problem with WoD was you out geared everything in a day. Through lfr,garrisons, and other sources of easy gear everything was made trivial and pointless.

Casuals need a progression path and it can not be max level into lfr then done. Blizzard needs to rebuild the slow and steady crawl like tbc has.

WoD wasn't lacking it was structured horribly.

It didn't warlord's had heroic dungeons, dungeons, challenge modes, garrison, battle pets, and reputation grinds on launch. It later added daily quest, daily zones, and mythic dungeons stuff that is suppose to in the game at launch.

Burning crusade had heroic dungeons, dungeons, reputation grinds, two new races, new starting zones, daily zones, daily quest, new battlegrounds, world pvp hubs, world pvp objectives, pvp dailies, dungeon dailies, and profession perks. Burning Crusade had the most launch content of any expansion at launch. Actually wrath had a lot more quest.

Burning crusade had 110% of warlord's content at launch except mythic dungeons, garrisons, and challenge modes. It also had more raid bosses, reputations, and dungeons than warlord's did on launch. The content was more challenging and I will give you that but burning crusade shit on warlord's in the content department as well. Every expansion but cataclysm did honestly.

I think the game could benefit from a difficulty increase but burning crusade shit on warlord's content wise. It wasn't just horribly structured, blizzard dropped the ball in the content department to the point an older expansion had more than it.

Warlord's had less quest, dungeons, bosses, raid instances, dailies(weren't in the game at launch), reputation grinds, world bosses, zones, then burning crusade as well and not to mention that people had different expectation for the amount of content in an mmo back then.

[Daffan]

Most people weren't max level during those expansion's and most weren't raiding. They might have been doing world content but that got gutted in warlord's. They were left with nothing to do because warlord's had less than half of mist content at best.

The amount of content is completely different when comparing casuals vs top players.

Casuals never even finish the original content, they just keep skipping over everything because it's obsolete and beneath them so they don't care about it anymore.

It didn't warlord's had heroic dungeons, dungeons, challenge modes, garrison, battle pets, and reputation grinds on launch. It later added daily quest, daily zones, and mythic dungeons stuff that is suppose to in the game at launch.

Burning crusade had heroic dungeons, dungeons, reputation grinds, two new races, new starting zones, daily zones, daily quest, new battlegrounds, world pvp hubs, world pvp objectives, pvp dailies, dungeon dailies, and profession perks. Burning Crusade had the most launch content of any expansion at launch.

Burning crusade had 110% of warlord's content at launch except mythic dungeons, garrisons, and challenge modes. It also had more raid bosses, reputations, and dungeons than warlord's did on launch. The content was more challenging and I will give you that but burning crusade shit on warlord's in the content department as well. Every expansion but cataclysm did honestly.

I think the game could benefit from a difficulty increase but burning crusade shit on warlord's content wise. It wasn't just horribly structured, blizzard dropped the ball in the content department to the point an older expansion had more than it.

Warlord's had less quest, dungeons, bosses, raid instances, dailies(weren't in the game at launch), reputation grinds, world bosses, zones, then burning crusade as well and not to mention that people had different expectation for the amount of content in an mmo back then.

And guess what, everything progression you listed in TBC became completely irrelevant when Sunwell came out and rained free epics.

Now imagine, if WoD style catch up existed in TBC from patch 2.1, everything would of became irrelevant straight away instead of near the end with Sunwell.

It did not even really matter that WoD had less of the basic non-raid stuff because nobody is doing it in the first place. You don't have to work through heroics for weeks, you don't have to go through the earlier raids, there is no attunements, there is no reason to do professions - it's all a complete waste of time for the average player.

Your average joe blow who keeps talking about wanting more world content and dungeons to keep him busy is the same guy who gets full 700 + welfare and never gives a rat about any of that stuff the second he gets it.

[Deleted]

A big problem is the player mentality really. When we get catch up patches they just leave the last raid tier and jump to the next, while complaining they got nothing to do. I get it - new tiers offers better quality gear and all, but claiming there is nothing to do is just.. Meh..

Perhaps the problem is based on gear level- imagine there was only 5 item levels difference between tiers, then you actually might want a piece that has lower item level, just because it got the right stats. If BRF was 670 and HFC was 675 (add more for HC and mythic) there would/ could be a reason to still complete last tier raiding without feeling that you wasted time.

[judgementofantonidas]

Still, if you can get heroic items from a shipyard mission, getting them from crafting is not too much to ask imo.

honestly, I think you should be able to craft all slots up to normal raid level and that is it. anything above that should be earned from raid. however if crafted items of heroic or better level are allowed then there should not be an artificial limit of three equiped items because honestly there are enough players that you could gear them out in complete mythic gear and they would still wipe on normal.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

The amount of content is completely different when comparing casuals vs top players.

Casuals never even finish the original content, they just keep skipping over everything because it's obsolete and beneath them so they don't care about it anymore.



And guess what, everything progression you listed in TBC became completely irrelevant when Sunwell came out and rained free epics.

Now imagine, if WoD style catch up existed in TBC from patch 2.1, everything would of became irrelevant straight away instead of near the end with Sunwell.

It did not even really matter that WoD had less of the basic non-raid stuff because nobody is doing it in the first place. You don't have to work through heroics for weeks, you don't have to go through the earlier raids, there is no attunements, there is no reason to do professions - it's all a complete waste of time for the average player.

Your average joe blow who keeps talking about wanting more world content and dungeons to keep him busy is the same guy who gets full 700 + welfare and never gives a rat about any of that stuff the second he gets it.

I know several people who run older content for vanity items. I've seen people run older raids for gear, mounts, sets, weapons, trinkets, and pets. Some of my friends run them for upgrades but they're a minority of a minority.

It wouldn't make that content obsolete. Heroic dungeons dropped badge gear and daily heroic quest gave badges. Older and newer raids dropped badges and killing every boss meant you could get more badges. Reputations still had pets to farm and unique gear sets that some collectors would like to farm. World bosses could drop badges which would make them relevant. Profession perks would be used to catch up until something better came a long. If they never added the 20% nerf to all the content in Burning Crusade most of that shit would still take months unless you had someone to carry you through it because it was actually hard.

Yeah but blizzard would spread raid release out to counter that problem... You would have to work through heroic for weeks because they were actually challenging unless you have a group of friends who would carry you through them. Attunements could just require you to complete the previous raid. Professions use to be in mist because they gave you static or active stat bonuses which were nice as well as special mounts and perks. I am that average Joe because I like vanity items, and random world shit even raiders enjoy those activity and complain about the lack of them in warlord's.

I never said the game couldn't use a difficult increase but that warlord's suffered from a lack of shit to do which isn't wrong especially when compared to other expansions.

[OreoLover]

The amount of content is completely different when comparing casuals vs top players.

Whaaaaat? "Top players" usually commit to 1 type of content far more than casuals.

[Kyriani]

honestly, I think you should be able to craft all slots up to normal raid level and that is it. anything above that should be earned from raid. however if crafted items of heroic or better level are allowed then there should not be an artificial limit of three equiped items because honestly there are enough players that you could gear them out in complete mythic gear and they would still wipe on normal.

See I don't care for this mentality. Raiding should not be the sole benchmark for character progression. It's been over a decade and the game needs to evolve past that. There's nothing wrong with players earning gear just as powerful as that found in raids through content other than raids. The acquisition of that gear just has to take time and/or resources.

Take crafting for example. There's nothing wrong with being able to craft high end gear. While this isn't the best example, let's look at the old Spellfire and Frozen Shadoweave sets from TBC. Now these sets had the problem of just being too amazing for their ilvl since if you weren't raiding (and in many cases even if you were) they were extremely hard to replace. But there IS a good idea there. Now imagine if crafting kept up with raid progression, and I'm not talking about recipes or mats dropping IN raids cause that's always been stupid IMO. Raiders already have gear (and sometimes currency depending on the xpac/raid) raining down on them. I'm talking about say each new content patch new recipes are added to the world for crafters to find that make gear equivalent in ilvl to the current raid tier. Now make each of these recipes require a significant investment in effort to acquire the mats. Not time gating cooldowns cause those can go die in a fire, but actually making players go out into the world to collect these mats. Maybe some can be rare drops from dungeons? Or perhaps rare world mobs that require a small group to defeat? Maybe add a system of breaking gear down into components which sometimes results in rare materials being generated which are required to make something better?

Then beyond crafting there should be yet other methods of gear acquisition. We used to get reputations at the start of an xpac which offered gear that tended to be at the ilvl of the initial raid. They took time and dedication to acquire and in many cases were pretty decent gear. Now what if, rep levels were different, what if reps continued to evolve with each content patch. So instead of just grinding to exalted and then done, you grinded to friendly (which would not be as quick to achieve as it is now but should come naturally progressing the zone the rep is tied to) to get a few pieces of initial max level blue gear, players could then continue advancing that rep to Honored for a few epics from that rep equivalent to the initial raid tier. Then a new content patch comes out and that rep gets new (and more difficult) content that gives rep to take you to Revered, with new rewards at the end... and the same happens at the next content patch allowing players to finally reach exalted with rewards equivalent to the final raid tier. Now I am not saying that a single rep should give a full set of gear. But rather different reps give gear for different slots so that a non raider has multiple story driven reputations (think MoP's Landfall content) to progress that reward gear on par to that which raiders can acquire. It would take far longer for the non-raider to gear up via this path than a raider would running raids but it would exist as an alternative path of character progression that isn't inferior, just much slower. While not the greatest example (cause its less story and more grindy) look at FFXIV's relic weapon quests. These relic weapons are near equivalent to that which can be earned from raids in that game, and they improve with every major content patch that adds a new tier of gear. They take a hell of a long time to acquire though and require a dedicated investment of time and effort. It's far easier and faster to get a raid drop but for those who don't raid it's probably the best weapon they'll ever get and it doesn't remain static throughout the xpac cause the quest to upgrade it continues each time a new tier of gear is added.

The point is, all progression eggs should not be solely in the raiding basket. Non-raiders need their own progression path that's just as rewarding as raiding but much slower. It shouldn't award the same gear as raids but it should award equivalent/desirable gear. And if raiders feel obligated to engage that content too? Well lucky them they have even more paths of progression than non-raiders do! At least this way, there's multiple ways to get things done. You can do the reps that have gear you want, maybe turn to crafting to fill some other slots, and then fill the rest with max level heroic/mythic dungeon drops. Essentially the non-raider would have a way to gain significant character progression that isn't fast or without investment. Putting raiding on some "this must be the best and only real way to progress" pedestal has always been a mistake IMO.

[Deleted]

See I don't care for this mentality. Raiding should not be the sole benchmark for character progression. It's been over a decade and the game needs to evolve past that. There's nothing wrong with players earning gear just as powerful as that found in raids through content other than raids. The acquisition of that gear just has to take time and/or resources.

Take crafting for example. There's nothing wrong with being able to craft high end gear. While this isn't the best example, let's look at the old Spellfire and Frozen Shadoweave sets from TBC. Now these sets had the problem of just being too amazing for their ilvl since if you weren't raiding (and in many cases even if you were) they were extremely hard to replace. But there IS a good idea there. Now imagine if crafting kept up with raid progression, and I'm not talking about recipes or mats dropping IN raids cause that's always been stupid IMO. Raiders already have gear (and sometimes currency depending on the xpac/raid) raining down on them. I'm talking about say each new content patch new recipes are added to the world for crafters to find that make gear equivalent in ilvl to the current raid tier. Now make each of these recipes require a significant investment in effort to acquire the mats. Not time gating cooldowns cause those can go die in a fire, but actually making players go out into the world to collect these mats. Maybe some can be rare drops from dungeons? Or perhaps rare world mobs that require a small group to defeat? Maybe add a system of breaking gear down into components which sometimes results in rare materials being generated which are required to make something better?

Then beyond crafting there should be yet other methods of gear acquisition. We used to get reputations at the start of an xpac which offered gear that tended to be at the ilvl of the initial raid. They took time and dedication to acquire and in many cases were pretty decent gear. Now what if, rep levels were different, what if reps continued to evolve with each content patch. So instead of just grinding to exalted and then done, you grinded to friendly (which would not be as quick to achieve as it is now but should come naturally progressing the zone the rep is tied to) to get a few pieces of initial max level blue gear, players could then continue advancing that rep to Honored for a few epics from that rep equivalent to the initial raid tier. Then a new content patch comes out and that rep gets new (and more difficult) content that gives rep to take you to Revered, with new rewards at the end... and the same happens at the next content patch allowing players to finally reach exalted with rewards equivalent to the final raid tier. Now I am not saying that a single rep should give a full set of gear. But rather different reps give gear for different slots so that a non raider has multiple story driven reputations (think MoP's Landfall content) to progress that reward gear on par to that which raiders can acquire. It would take far longer for the non-raider to gear up via this path than a raider would running raids but it would exist as an alternative path of character progression that isn't inferior, just much slower. While not the greatest example (cause its less story and more grindy) look at FFXIV's relic weapon quests. These relic weapons are near equivalent to that which can be earned from raids in that game, and they improve with every major content patch that adds a new tier of gear. They take a hell of a long time to acquire though and require a dedicated investment of time and effort. It's far easier and faster to get a raid drop but for those who don't raid it's probably the best weapon they'll ever get and it doesn't remain static throughout the xpac cause the quest to upgrade it continues each time a new tier of gear is added.

The point is, all progression eggs should not be solely in the raiding basket. Non-raiders need their own progression path that's just as rewarding as raiding but much slower. It shouldn't award the same gear as raids but it should award equivalent/desirable gear. And if raiders feel obligated to engage that content too? Well lucky them they have even more paths of progression than non-raiders do! At least this way, there's multiple ways to get things done. You can do the reps that have gear you want, maybe turn to crafting to fill some other slots, and then fill the rest with max level heroic/mythic dungeon drops. Essentially the non-raider would have a way to gain significant character progression that isn't fast or without investment. Putting raiding on some "this must be the best and only real way to progress" pedestal has always been a mistake IMO.

This kind of logic is awful...

By making all the rewards the same you make sure raiding is the only form of progression at the end of the day...

Rewards should be spread out and matched to their content. Hell look at the explanation of tbc. Players should be advancing through content designed for them. This being equal to raiders in terms of power has destroyed the game for everyone but raiders. It is a stance only held by the short sighted and the greedy...

So you get full raid gear from non raid content then what? Your done. You will never be challenged at any point due to your absurd ilv and you don't raid...


Players wanting to be equal to players running the hardest content in the game when their not touching anything half as hard is why WoW has gone to shit for none raiders these last few expacs. Ask for a proper progression path not to be thrown to the very end of progression from mindless grinds to get power you did not earn that breaks the game for you.


A good rep reward would be something like the scryers in tbc. Weeks of grinding got you a nice blue staff that was almost as good as the best heroic dungeon drop.

[primalmatter]

See I don't care for this mentality. Raiding should not be the sole benchmark for character progression. It's been over a decade and the game needs to evolve past that. There's nothing wrong with players earning gear just as powerful as that found in raids through content other than raids. The acquisition of that gear just has to take time and/or resources.

Take crafting for example. There's nothing wrong with being able to craft high end gear. While this isn't the best example, let's look at the old Spellfire and Frozen Shadoweave sets from TBC. Now these sets had the problem of just being too amazing for their ilvl since if you weren't raiding (and in many cases even if you were) they were extremely hard to replace. But there IS a good idea there. Now imagine if crafting kept up with raid progression, and I'm not talking about recipes or mats dropping IN raids cause that's always been stupid IMO. Raiders already have gear (and sometimes currency depending on the xpac/raid) raining down on them. I'm talking about say each new content patch new recipes are added to the world for crafters to find that make gear equivalent in ilvl to the current raid tier. Now make each of these recipes require a significant investment in effort to acquire the mats. Not time gating cooldowns cause those can go die in a fire, but actually making players go out into the world to collect these mats. Maybe some can be rare drops from dungeons? Or perhaps rare world mobs that require a small group to defeat? Maybe add a system of breaking gear down into components which sometimes results in rare materials being generated which are required to make something better?

Then beyond crafting there should be yet other methods of gear acquisition. We used to get reputations at the start of an xpac which offered gear that tended to be at the ilvl of the initial raid. They took time and dedication to acquire and in many cases were pretty decent gear. Now what if, rep levels were different, what if reps continued to evolve with each content patch. So instead of just grinding to exalted and then done, you grinded to friendly (which would not be as quick to achieve as it is now but should come naturally progressing the zone the rep is tied to) to get a few pieces of initial max level blue gear, players could then continue advancing that rep to Honored for a few epics from that rep equivalent to the initial raid tier. Then a new content patch comes out and that rep gets new (and more difficult) content that gives rep to take you to Revered, with new rewards at the end... and the same happens at the next content patch allowing players to finally reach exalted with rewards equivalent to the final raid tier. Now I am not saying that a single rep should give a full set of gear. But rather different reps give gear for different slots so that a non raider has multiple story driven reputations (think MoP's Landfall content) to progress that reward gear on par to that which raiders can acquire. It would take far longer for the non-raider to gear up via this path than a raider would running raids but it would exist as an alternative path of character progression that isn't inferior, just much slower. While not the greatest example (cause its less story and more grindy) look at FFXIV's relic weapon quests. These relic weapons are near equivalent to that which can be earned from raids in that game, and they improve with every major content patch that adds a new tier of gear. They take a hell of a long time to acquire though and require a dedicated investment of time and effort. It's far easier and faster to get a raid drop but for those who don't raid it's probably the best weapon they'll ever get and it doesn't remain static throughout the xpac cause the quest to upgrade it continues each time a new tier of gear is added.

The point is, all progression eggs should not be solely in the raiding basket. Non-raiders need their own progression path that's just as rewarding as raiding but much slower. It shouldn't award the same gear as raids but it should award equivalent/desirable gear. And if raiders feel obligated to engage that content too? Well lucky them they have even more paths of progression than non-raiders do! At least this way, there's multiple ways to get things done. You can do the reps that have gear you want, maybe turn to crafting to fill some other slots, and then fill the rest with max level heroic/mythic dungeon drops. Essentially the non-raider would have a way to gain significant character progression that isn't fast or without investment. Putting raiding on some "this must be the best and only real way to progress" pedestal has always been a mistake IMO.

No there shouldn't be...

Stop trying to destroy the game outside of raid or die.

Christ nothing is enough for a casual. When you get your raid gear you are not going to be happy you are just going to bitch that there is nothing to do.

[Kyriani]

No there shouldn't be...

Stop trying to destroy the game outside of raid or die.

Christ nothing is enough for a casual. When you get your raid gear you are not going to be happy you are just going to bitch that there is nothing to do.

Raid or die is what's destroying the game.

There needs to be more to the game than just raiding. WoD was a perfect example of that. With nothing beyond raiding for endgame advancement of any real significance, look what happened. An unprecedented exodus of subs. Hide you head in the sand all you want, but as a former raider myself (I stopped playing wow because there was nothing to do outside of raiding among other reasons) I am not blind to the need of alternatives to raiding for character advancement.

Like it or not, raiders aren't the only players deserving on meaningful content. That doesn't mean non-raid content has to be easy or fast. I believe in the philosophy that group based content should be the quicker way to rewards but it should not be the ONLY way to rewards. The devs used to know that... now its just a conveyor belt into and out of raids with nothing substantial to do in between.

At the end of the day every player wants to make their characters better and stronger regardless of the content they engage in. If the only way to get significant character power is raiding... and you don't like raiding... well then you're out of luck. That needs to change and it looks like the devs see that. So stamp your feet all you want but character power is not going to be held hostage to raid or die anymore. If Legion is successful you'll see even more shifting away from the raid or die mentality.

Wow itself needs to diversify much how Blizzard did. Blizzard used to be all about WoW and only WoW. It was the golden goose and got all the focus. But even blizzard realzied they needed to diversify their portfolio. WoW would not be able to keep things going on its own. Thus we have so many more Blizzard games thriving now. WoW needs to do the same. It needs a diverse array of rewarding content for a variety of playstyles not just one (raid or die).

Ultimately the writing is on the wall and raid or die is going to go the way of the dodo. Not to say raiding itself will disappear but it will not be the ONLY way to advance character power anymore. And that's a GOOD thing IMO.

[primalmatter]

Raid or die is what's destroying the game.

There needs to be more to the game than just raiding. WoD was a perfect example of that. With nothing beyond raiding for endgame advancement of any real significance, look what happened. An unprecedented exodus of subs. Hide you head in the sand all you want, but as a former raider myself (I stopped playing wow because there was nothing to do outside of raiding among other reasons) I am not blind to the need of alternatives to raiding for character advancement.

Like it or not, raiders aren't the only players deserving on meaningful content. That doesn't mean non-raid content has to be easy or fast. I believe in the philosophy that group based content should be the quicker way to rewards but it should not be the ONLY way to rewards. The devs used to know that... now its just a conveyor belt into and out of raids with nothing substantial to do in between.

At the end of the day every player wants to make their characters better and stronger regardless of the content they engage in. If the only way to get significant character power is raiding... and you don't like raiding... well then you're out of luck. That needs to change and it looks like the devs see that. So stamp your feet all you want but character power is not going to be held hostage to raid or die anymore. If Legion is successful you'll see even more shifting away from the raid or die mentality.

Wow itself needs to diversify much how Blizzard did. Blizzard used to be all about WoW and only WoW. It was the golden goose and got all the focus. But even blizzard realzied they needed to diversify their portfolio. WoW would not be able to keep things going on its own. Thus we have so many more Blizzard games thriving now. WoW needs to do the same. It needs a diverse array of rewarding content for a variety of playstyles not just one (raid or die).

Ultimately the writing is on the wall and raid or die is going to go the way of the dodo. Not to say raiding itself will disappear but it will not be the ONLY way to advance character power anymore. And that's a GOOD thing IMO.

Why is meaningful content only what gives BiS in the entire game to you?

You actively advocate the destruction of your own content by making it trivial then try to chip away at raid.... just why?

Look at vanilla and tbc. They had proper progression. Do not ask that your none raid content gives you mythic raid gear. Ask that it gives you blues and greens that prepare you for the next stage of difficulty.

You keep actively asking for progression to be destroyed outside of raids so you can progress in raids but you don't raid nor want to... Can you really not see how that is bad idea?