[MARKSMANSHIP]Legion Alpha Discussion

[Deleted]

Sidewinders is terrible for leveling, and if you want to have some aoe go trickshot, patient sniper and headshot (or L&L). That would be probably the best for destroying mobs while leveling.

Just don't use arcane shot, use multi shot, it also applies hunter mark. If it procs (marked shot) you'll destroy mobs before they realize who hit them, if it doesn't, time for barrage and/or headshot.

I have some super shit gear on newly created hunter, doing some normal dungeons from time to time and on large pack of mobs 5+ dps varies from the best (~160k while no one else comes close) to the worst (like 90k if i have bad luck).

It has this advantage over SW in leveling that it is usually proccing at the beginning so you will need just ~2 more procs to kill pack while being almost perfectly mobile. From what i have seen multi shot is better even with two mobs (4vs5 focus BUT it applies hunter mark). And marked shot is above aimed shot (with trick shot talent) because MS deals full damage to all marked targets not just 100% + 30% to the rest. You will basically be using aimed shots only when you are out of options.

dont know friend, but im pulling these numbers in normal dungeons with sidewinders too.
also i dont have any problems leveling with sindewinders

[kaminaris]

I haven't said sidewinders is bad in terms of dps, its the opposite.
I said its terrible for leveling. Pull 10 average (something that does moderate amount of damage, not critters or stags) mobs and try not to die using sidewinders. Without SW you can kite them pretty much forever while killing pretty quickly. And you dont need to restore hp after each pack.

[Tehterokkar]

So sidewinders = Barrage in that scenario...... gonna be laughing real hard when leveling and seeing another hunter pull everything in the zone again.....

Sidewinders work like a mix of Barrage and Glaive Toss. The Sidewinder rockets only reach to your target, while doing same kind of cone cleave as barrage up-to that distance.

You want to always target the mob that is the farthest back, like with Glaive Toss, otherwise it won't hit everything.

[Kennyloggins]

I haven't said sidewinders is bad in terms of dps, its the opposite.
I said its terrible for leveling. Pull 10 average (something that does moderate amount of damage, not critters or stags) mobs and try not to die using sidewinders. Without SW you can kite them pretty much forever while killing pretty quickly. And you dont need to restore hp after each pack.

You have binding shot, disengage, and barrage, how can you possibly say you cannot kite with Sidewinders? Sidewinders is way better for leveling if you can actually play the game. FailFish

[Ifritlol]

Say all u want, but leveling as a tank is easier than ever. You literally can't die. Look's like the "First on the Server" would be Bears and DK's

[Deleted]

You have binding shot, disengage, and barrage, how can you possibly say you cannot kite with Sidewinders? Sidewinders is way better for leveling if you can actually play the game. FailFish

take black arrow as a kiting tool too

[Cebel]

You have binding shot, disengage, and barrage, how can you possibly say you cannot kite with Sidewinders? Sidewinders is way better for leveling if you can actually play the game. FailFish

idk breh, headshot is practically one shotting shit for me lol :P

[DeadSwordz]

I finally got access to the beta today so not sure if this is a bug but sidewinders applies vulnerable/deadeye without having to press marked shot. If this is intended it will fix all the complaints about rng

[Deleted]

I finally got access to the beta today so not sure if this is a bug but sidewinders applies vulnerable/deadeye without having to press marked shot. If this is intended it will fix all the complaints about rng

Its in the tooltip. http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=214579/sidewinders

"Applies Vulnerable to all targets hit."

[kaminaris]

You have binding shot, disengage, and barrage, how can you possibly say you cannot kite with Sidewinders? Sidewinders is way better for leveling if you can actually play the game. FailFish

Why would I ever want to use CC and waste global cooldowns when i can just hit and run with full dps not even stopping?
See pack of mobs, barrage, multi + marked, headshot OR (multi + marked, multi + marked), and dey all dead. If it crits mobs die even faster. I rarely need to use aimed and i almost never fight with less than 3 mobs.
Disengage is only good for leveling because of posthaste which makes kiting even easier. With L&L and Headshot You. Don't. Stop.

Ranged mobs are the only problem cause i can't kite them.

[Bepples]

You have binding shot, disengage, and barrage, how can you possibly say you cannot kite with Sidewinders? Sidewinders is way better for leveling if you can actually play the game. FailFish

Key words "killing pretty quickly". When you take Sidewinders the spec is MUCH less effective during full movement since you have no movement filler; you'll spend several seconds at a time casting nothing since Blizzard nerfed Aimed Shot movement (and yes, it is just that: a nerf) and sidewinders has a cooldown. This, funnily enough, is something you lauded several pages ago as removing a "pathetic crutch", and it looks like even you didn't have anything with which to defend that statement back then.

[Avikur]

I know tuning hasn't been done but my MM hunter does over double the dps of other classes I e tried on the training dummies on the PVP 110 server, is anyone else finding this or do I just play the spec much better than I play other classes?!

[Deleted]

I know tuning hasn't been done but my MM hunter does over double the dps of other classes I e tried on the training dummies on the PVP 110 server, is anyone else finding this or do I just play the spec much better than I play other classes?!

shhhtt
let them cry a bit more bout things who arent real

[Deleted]

Sidewinders is weird. Firing small rockets, so much for the class fantasy.

That fits the class fantasy well for goblins.

[Deleted]

Ive only really played around with MM on Beta atm - Just wondering, is it on par - worse or better than BM in terms output from those who have done a few dungs, tested etc?

[kaminaris]

Highest number I have seen on MM on a boss fight was around 70K its usually 40-60K depending on boss, rng and stuff. BM was around 65K - but its pretty much stable (only done one dung with BM and multiple with MM so far after beta reset). But I believe my "numbers" are not even close to actual situation because of gear. So far they look pretty much on par. I'm getting a feeling that on cleave fights MM will be better while on more single target BM will be, especially if fight will involve a lot of movement.

But one thing is sure BM is a LOT LESS carcinogenic. The only RNG there is procs of dire beast and crits. So dps is much more consistent.

[Nightspear]

Why would I ever want to use CC and waste global cooldowns when i can just hit and run with full dps not even stopping?
See pack of mobs, barrage, multi + marked, headshot OR (multi + marked, multi + marked), and dey all dead. If it crits mobs die even faster. I rarely need to use aimed and i almost never fight with less than 3 mobs.
Disengage is only good for leveling because of posthaste which makes kiting even easier. With L&L and Headshot You. Don't. Stop.

Ranged mobs are the only problem cause i can't kite them.

If you use Sidewinders and pull everything and CC, you kill 5 mobs at a time with ease (if not more). If you're singletarget lvling as MM, you're not playing to potential. I use sidewinders, barrage, binding shot, patient sniper and trick shot. (Im not a fan of explosive shot, even tho its good)
You basicly kill so fast, you always have a heal, even if you facetank.

[Jthecrazed]

What I see in one the beta forums troubles me greatly. Lots of people are complaining about everything from the MM AOE still being boring, to the now also boring single target rotation.

The WoD hunter was simple, but a lot of fun to play as they gave you a lot of freedom in what you wanted to do. They had the awesome ability to always be on the move while casting and switching targets without penalty. I was fun to stand still for three seconds and then move again for three trying to get as much mastery uptime as possible. In legion both are gone. Aimed shot FORCES you to stand still all the time while casting it. Marked shot requires you to stick to a target or suffer a massive dps loss. Second the MM hunter had a burst that could be used on command after pooling some focus. Now there is just this endless weaving with an occasional dps increse from Deadeye...

Blizzard had aslo been talking about embracing "Class Fantasy", but marksmanship has gone in the opposite direction, straying further from it's identity as it is forced to adapt aspects of survival that don't belong in the marksman spec a.k.a. magic stuff. When I think of a marksman I think of sniper, the old mastery best reflected this. Besides that casting is something that annoys me aswell especially if there's only one baseline ability using it. Then there's the utility. It's nonexistent. Exhaliration and busting shot are the only basline ones and are both horrible. exhaliration is only useful when leveling as only then the cd will go down more quickly and bursting shot is a more pathetic version of scattershot.

So I started to think what would make a better set of abilities for the mm hunter. I decided to stark looking for ispiration at wow's "source material", no not the warcraft games. D&D is the most famous tabletop RPG ever so I decided to look where the ispiration came from. Let's start with the Ranger. The ranger is the inpriation for hunter's mark and eagle eye for example. A lot of the ranger spell are found in the arsenal of the hunter. But marksamship Just doesn't fit with the ranger as they are not centered around nature or magic. So we look at the other ranged class in the game: The Fighter. Although you don't think about them very often with a bow and arrow in hand, they are the closest thing to the marksman hunter. alass they don't have ranged focussed abilities apart from maneuvers or "trickshots" (if you take the gunslinger spec) these are ver marksmanlike though. Include stuff like aiming for a specific body part to stun, disarm, cripple or just deal more damage, or you can just increase accuracy.

All this caused me to think of a new system they could use, building up hunter's mark stacks (counted on the player, if you please) and each ability using an amount of stacks. Examples of abilities that I thought of were: Flaming arrow, cost: 50 focus, produces a dot on the target that does moderate dps over 12 sec every 1 sec and has a 5% chance to give 1 stack of hunter's mark.; Headshot, cost: 3 marks, causes your nex autoattack to deal a high amount of damage and stun the target for 4 seconds. 25 sec cooldown.; Tar Grenade, 2 marks 35 focus,1,5 sec cast time , can be cast while moving drenches an area in tar applying the "Smeared!" debuff and spreading the flame arrow to all targets in the area. Being smeared causes that opponent to take 25% more damage from flaming arrow. Smeared stacks 3 times. lasts 12 seconds.; These are examples of things that are possible, the three kinds of abilities you might find are deadeye generators like flaming arrow and quick shot that cost focus, but have a chance to generate a stack (autoattacks also have a chance to generate marks and crits have double) , The trick shots, that have powerful effects, but cost a certain amount of stacks of hunter's mark and finally grenades, the MM hunter utility. Grenades all have a effect on a bunch of people and are the only abilities with cast times. the rest of your abilities will either empower your autoattacks (trick shots) or be instant (deadeye generators).

The mastery seems a little dull and I decided it should still involve movement. So now while walking the your haste increases gradually and while standing still crit increases gradually while the one incresed the other dimishes, the rate at wich this happens and the cap to it are determined by mastery an alternative would be teh old wod mastery. this rewuires les ramp and gives more aoe. If you have a few stacks you can dump them for on demand burst or go for a weaving approach.

If you either agree or disagree please let me know.

[kaminaris]

not playing to potential.

You do realize that marked shot deals the same damage to every target while trick shot talent + aimed shot deals 100% to primary and 30% to the others?
You do realize that combo multi shot + marked shot not only deals pretty high damage to all targets AND applies deadeye to ALL targets which means you actually CAN use aimed shot (trick shot) after that?

Long story shot multi + marked deals a lot more damage aoe that trickshot + aimed. The more mobs the more difference it is. And the problem is that with sidewinders you basically cant move. While not having it, you are very mobile unless it doesn't proc.

[Cebel]

What I see in one the beta forums troubles me greatly. Lots of people are complaining about everything from the MM AOE still being boring, to the now also boring single target rotation.

The WoD hunter was simple, but a lot of fun to play as they gave you a lot of freedom in what you wanted to do. They had the awesome ability to always be on the move while casting and switching targets without penalty. I was fun to stand still for three seconds and then move again for three trying to get as much mastery uptime as possible. In legion both are gone. Aimed shot FORCES you to stand still all the time while casting it. Marked shot requires you to stick to a target or suffer a massive dps loss. Second the MM hunter had a burst that could be used on command after pooling some focus. Now there is just this endless weaving with an occasional dps increse from Deadeye...

Blizzard had aslo been talking about embracing "Class Fantasy", but marksmanship has gone in the opposite direction, straying further from it's identity as it is forced to adapt aspects of survival that don't belong in the marksman spec a.k.a. magic stuff. When I think of a marksman I think of sniper, the old mastery best reflected this. Besides that casting is something that annoys me aswell especially if there's only one baseline ability using it. Then there's the utility. It's nonexistent. Exhaliration and busting shot are the only basline ones and are both horrible. exhaliration is only useful when leveling as only then the cd will go down more quickly and bursting shot is a more pathetic version of scattershot.

So I started to think what would make a better set of abilities for the mm hunter. I decided to stark looking for ispiration at wow's "source material", no not the warcraft games. D&D is the most famous tabletop RPG ever so I decided to look where the ispiration came from. Let's start with the Ranger. The ranger is the inpriation for hunter's mark and eagle eye for example. A lot of the ranger spell are found in the arsenal of the hunter. But marksamship Just doesn't fit with the ranger as they are not centered around nature or magic. So we look at the other ranged class in the game: The Fighter. Although you don't think about them very often with a bow and arrow in hand, they are the closest thing to the marksman hunter. alass they don't have ranged focussed abilities apart from maneuvers or "trickshots" (if you take the gunslinger spec) these are ver marksmanlike though. Include stuff like aiming for a specific body part to stun, disarm, cripple or just deal more damage, or you can just increase accuracy.

All this caused me to think of a new system they could use, building up hunter's mark stacks (counted on the player, if you please) and each ability using an amount of stacks. Examples of abilities that I thought of were: Flaming arrow, cost: 50 focus, produces a dot on the target that does moderate dps over 12 sec every 1 sec and has a 5% chance to give 1 stack of hunter's mark.; Headshot, cost: 3 marks, causes your nex autoattack to deal a high amount of damage and stun the target for 4 seconds. 25 sec cooldown.; Tar Grenade, 2 marks 35 focus,1,5 sec cast time , can be cast while moving drenches an area in tar applying the "Smeared!" debuff and spreading the flame arrow to all targets in the area. Being smeared causes that opponent to take 25% more damage from flaming arrow. Smeared stacks 3 times. lasts 12 seconds.; These are examples of things that are possible, the three kinds of abilities you might find are deadeye generators like flaming arrow and quick shot that cost focus, but have a chance to generate a stack (autoattacks also have a chance to generate marks and crits have double) , The trick shots, that have powerful effects, but cost a certain amount of stacks of hunter's mark and finally grenades, the MM hunter utility. Grenades all have a effect on a bunch of people and are the only abilities with cast times. the rest of your abilities will either empower your autoattacks (trick shots) or be instant (deadeye generators).

The mastery seems a little dull and I decided it should still involve movement. So now while walking the your haste increases gradually and while standing still crit increases gradually while the one incresed the other dimishes, the rate at wich this happens and the cap to it are determined by mastery an alternative would be teh old wod mastery. this rewuires les ramp and gives more aoe. If you have a few stacks you can dump them for on demand burst or go for a weaving approach.

If you either agree or disagree please let me know.

Sorry... but you literally contradicted yourself in 3 paragraphs.

Snipers arent running around at max speed with perfect accuracy. They wait and take their shots at the most opportune time.

I understand you may not like the spec, but to say that marksmanship is straying from the class fantasy and identity of a sniper is just idiotic.