20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[Volibear]

And he's correct in that the main reason garrosh was trivial for 25 was a monk handling the adds. The raid damage was secondary (to the point it was solo healed on progress by a particular priest on progress). Thok is an example of what you are talking about.

You seem to have this stick up your ass as if someone is saying that 10 was easier for garrosh, though:

I was making the point that personal responsibility wasn't the sole reason Garrosh was easier, but sure.

[Raiju]

Did you expect a comprehensive list of issues from major to minor? Because you were needlessly aggressive if you hadn't misunderstood (and simply can't take a step back now)

[Deianeira]

It killed my guild. It killed multiple guilds that my friends were in.

It was a failure.

Weelllll you know what? You and those still in your guild that still played and those of your friends guild could have merged?

[Synadrasa]

I enjoyed 10 man more, you felt much more important to the group as a whole, a lot less time managing the guild since it was smaller and the fights were still very hard. I think most people would agree 10man heroic was more difficult on a whole compared to 25man heroic in MoP.

[Warrada]

Not sure if you weren't getting his point, but it was clear as crystal to me: the reason there isn't anything for people to do is a majority of raiders were 10m that didn't go 20m...therefore the thing that they used to do was no longer there for them, and hence why they left.

I agree with the point. Even though there isn't a lot to do in end game, if your end game was always 10m with your buddies and now that wasn't possible, or if you were talented and cleared normal/heroic in 2 months or less and got bored, yeah what's left for those players, who apparently were a pretty big group within the raiding community?

EXACTLY THIS! OMG, why is it so hard for people to understand this, including Blizzard? For this reason im for the first time considering not to come back for Legion.

I stopped playing 8 months ago mid HFC progression cause my core couldnt go on anymore due to not having consistency, since we're always missing good players, yes, we had more than 20 people, but at any point, we seemed to always have 6, 7 people being carried, and is very hard to find good replacements. If it was 10 man, i could always have a good, non-stressful raid environment within my own circle of friends, like i had through MoP, but 20 man has turned the PVE, which btw is the only thing i rly care about WoW, into something that is more about the human resources - constantly looking for players and dealing with all the stresses involved - than the actual raids.

Even if i come back, im absolutely sure that within 2 months my core will be suffering from the same dramas we were plagued during WoD all over again... Im not sure i can deal with such BS anymore... x.x

[GiefEpixe]

....you do realize that this includes an obscene amount of people clearing raids in 6.0 right before WoD came out? And the entirety of SoO before?
That there was a gigantic sub drop in WoD that nothing in MoP compares to? We don't even know sub numbers officially anymore, it's that bad. Best estimate is that we lost about 60% or more by this point. Sixty. Percent. And you think these numbers indicate BAD raid participation in Mythic? Lol..

I guess we'll just have to talk again once 7.0 hits then because you're merely speculating it will change the picture entirely. Personally, I don't see this "obscene amount" of people doing old raids then.

Right now, it's 75% less players clearing BRF compared to Throne. That number stands. Let's see what has happened to the BRF clearing numbers once Legion is out.

Regarding sub losses: You're also just speculating here about a loss of 60% or more. What we can work with are 8m subs at Throne release and the last number Blizz cared to give out with 5.5m. That's a loss of 30%. Anything beyond that is just more speculation.

[Deleted]

You're a gem. Thank you.


I liked it, the designed some great fights as a result. Had to find a new guild and am not raiding with everyone i was when i started (guild broke up, some quit, etc...) but the raid quality is something that cant be denied.

this. same case for me.
full success for me. people who dont want to put in effort or cant, should not feel entitled to it. and I see joining a new guild and socializing as an effort.

tbh mythic finally made me give up on raidleading myself, since my fellow real life friends never did anything but show up for raids, so i did everything alone and they never lasted a whole content. now im happy Im in company of people who have the same engagement in raiding. mythic was revolutionary for me.

[miffy23]

EXACTLY THIS! OMG, why is it so hard for people to understand this, including Blizzard? For this reason im for the first time considering not to come back for Legion.

I stopped playing 8 months ago mid HFC progression cause my core couldnt go on anymore due to not having consistency, since we're always missing good players, yes, we had more than 20 people, but at any point, we seemed to always have 6, 7 people being carried, and is very hard to find good replacements. If it was 10 man, i could always have a good, non-stressful raid environment within my own circle of friends, like i had through MoP, but 20 man has turned the PVE, which btw is the only thing i rly care about WoW, into something that is more about the human resources - constantly looking for players and dealing with all the stresses involved - than the actual raids.

Even if i come back, im absolutely sure that within 2 months my core will be suffering from the same dramas we were plagued during WoD all over again... Im not sure i can deal with such BS anymore... x.x

You would have this exact issue in a 10 man having to carry 3, 4 worse players....being unable to find good replacements would affect you just as much. Subs dropping =/= Mythic being unfeasible.

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I guess we'll just have to talk again once 7.0 hits then because you're merely speculating it will change the picture entirely. Personally, I don't see this "obscene amount" of people doing old raids then.

Right now, it's 75% less players clearing BRF compared to Throne. That number stands. Let's see what has happened to the BRF clearing numbers once Legion is out.

Regarding sub losses: You're also just speculating here about a loss of 60% or more. What we can work with are 8m subs at Throne release and the last number Blizz cared to give out with 5.5m. That's a loss of 30%. Anything beyond that is just more speculation.

Even those numbers entirely line up with the drop in guilds, accounting for 10mans merging as well and new guilds being created. If anything, the fact there are still comparable numbers of Mythic guilds clearing HFC is pretty astounding in relation to the dropping playerbase.

I dunno how anyone can point to a drop of 30% (and it's more at this point as we all know) in playerbase, along with a slash of at LEAST 50% in the number of guilds just thanks to the change from 10 to 20m alone, and still claim that significantly lower numbers are "out of the ordinary" or indicate anything about the relative "success" of the measure. Again, the numbers not only fall completely in line with what we've seen happen in subs and what we'd expect due to the change, they're even surprisingly strong at this point.

[Paula Deen]

Weelllll you know what? You and those still in your guild that still played and those of your friends guild could have merged?

Well, all in all the merge would have probably cost about 2000 USD to move all the different guilds from different servers all to one server. Totally worth it just to raid in arguably the worst expansion ever made.

[Warrada]

You would have this exact issue in a 10 man having to carry 3, 4 worse players....being unable to find good replacements would affect you just as much. Subs dropping =/= Mythic being unfeasible.

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Which one is easier, find 10 good players, or 20 good players? This is simple match...

As i said, in my own circle of friends, i could form a good 10 man core, like i had during MoP, but Mythic forced me to look for 10 more people, and when the whole server is suddenly also 'looking for 10 more people', theres not a whole lot of quality raiders available out there, so you have to get what you find, else you wont even raid since you dont have 20M...

[TEHPALLYTANK]

You would have this exact issue in a 10 man having to carry 3, 4 worse players....being unable to find good replacements would affect you just as much.

Finding replacements and doubling the size of your team aren't anywhere close to the same thing.

To anyone who says "just merge", you do realize guild merges are a massive source of conflict? Just the conflict between the tanks alone can destroy the entire merger, as tanks tend to be the most dedicated members of a raid team. Which guild gets to use their tanks? What about other personality conflicts? Mergers aren't some magical solution to the problem, you're just trading a difficult problem for another difficult problem.

[GiefEpixe]

Even those numbers entirely line up with the drop in guilds, accounting for 10mans merging as well and new guilds being created. If anything, the fact there are still comparable numbers of Mythic guilds clearing HFC is pretty astounding in relation to the dropping playerbase.

I dunno how anyone can point to a drop of 30% (and it's more at this point as we all know) in playerbase, along with a slash of at LEAST 50% in the number of guilds just thanks to the change from 10 to 20m alone, and still claim that significantly lower numbers are "out of the ordinary" or indicate anything about the relative "success" of the measure. Again, the numbers not only fall completely in line with what we've seen happen in subs and what we'd expect due to the change, they're even surprisingly strong at this point.

I don't get why you're so adamant about counting guild numbers. The most precise way to figure out if there has been an unproportional loss of players clearing the highest difficulty is taking a look at the number of players doing just that. It's pretty simple. We'll wait until Legion has hit and then take another look at the clearing numbers. It's 75% less at the moment and I highly doubt that 7.0 will turn that around. To be perfectly clear: We'd have to be at 2m subs right now to make that loss in clearing players not unproportional.

[miffy23]

I don't get why you're so adamant about counting guild numbers. The most precise way to figure out if there has been an unproportional loss of players clearing the highest difficulty is taking a look at the number of players doing just that. It's pretty simple. We'll wait until Legion has hit and then take another look at the clearing numbers. It's 75% less at the moment and I highly doubt that 7.0 will turn that around. To be perfectly clear: We'd have to be at 2m subs right now to make that loss in clearing players not unproportional.

That is not an unrealistic number to assume at all, if you extrapolate from the trend at the point of the last published numbers.
And you're still not getting it. Significantly smaller playerbase AND less guilds, AND you're STILL comparing the middle Tier after the fact of the completed expansion, instead of the two final Tiers, which are much more comparable.

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Which one is easier, find 10 good players, or 20 good players? This is simple match...

As i said, in my own circle of friends, i could form a good 10 man core, like i had during MoP, but Mythic forced me to look for 10 more people, and when the whole server is suddenly also 'looking for 10 more people', theres not a whole lot of quality raiders available out there, so you have to get what you find, else you wont even raid since you dont have 20M...

The discussion was "carrying 6 or so bad players in a 20 man". You would have the same issue if you had 3 or so bad players in a 10man. And most 10 mans had that.

[Alexeht]

My guild could never fill the 20 - 23 man roster so we stayed raiding heroic.

And this is healthy reaction to 20 Mythic being "too hard" to be organised. You want to do raid on highest level? You have to raid with 20man like EVERYONE else on Mythic.

Which one is easier, find 10 good players, or 20 good players? This is simple match...

As i said, in my own circle of friends, i could form a good 10 man core, like i had during MoP, but Mythic forced me to look for 10 more people, and when the whole server is suddenly also 'looking for 10 more people', theres not a whole lot of quality raiders available out there, so you have to get what you find, else you wont even raid since you dont have 20M...

Well this is why there is always option to merge guilds. It is not like it would be an issue only for 1 guild that they cannot expand theirs rooster.

[kamuimac]

And this is healthy reaction to 20 Mythic being "too hard" to be organised. You want to do raid on highest level? You have to raid with 20man like EVERYONE else on Mythic.
.

for me it seems like a striaght recipe how to unsub in a month but whatever rocks your boat ...

[Cannibalus]

Did you compare those numbers to SOO? Otherwise, I don't see the point of your argument really. If 32,000 of whatever how many millions are still playing now is not minisucle, I don't know what is.

While you're at it browsing wowprogress, please also take a look at the numbers for BRF and compare them to TOT and let's discuss the 75% drop there.

In my head, minuscule means something less than 1%. When you have 200-300k Mythic raiders from a total of what? 5 mil? That's pretty good

[voidillusion]

As has been said before in this thread.

The attendance boss has been around since long before WoD. Hardest content has always been an "adapt or die" scenario, stop acting like 20man is anything different.

Well not always, during a period, players that wanted to raid the arguably "hardest content" with their closest friends and or family in a small group of 10 ppl, without the logistic hassle, could. They could actually have fun playing the game for the game, without having someone to organize the ingame time like if it was a corporation of some sort.

[Cannibalus]

Well not always, during a period, players that wanted to raid the arguably "hardest content" with their closest friends and or family in a small group of 10 ppl, without the logistic hassle, could. They could actually have fun playing the game for the game, without having someone to organize the ingame time like if it was a corporation of some sort.

I've played 10-man Heroic in MoP and it was a disaster. We faced a waaay harder difficulty then 25-man because of the lack of raid cooldowns. Also don't tell me you can stroll with "friends and family" through Mythic... that's a blatand lie, tell your mother she has to sit out on x boss cuz she's bad and u'll be seeing Christmas Dinner from outside.

[voidillusion]

I've played 10-man Heroic in MoP and it was a disaster. We faced a waaay harder difficulty then 25-man because of the lack of raid cooldowns. Also don't tell me you can stroll with "friends and family" through Mythic... that's a blatand lie, tell your mother she has to sit out on x boss cuz she's bad and u'll be seeing Christmas Dinner from outside.

I wouldnt tell my mother for sure because she's 64 and doesnt even go near a PC. But for you it seems hard to grasp the concept that some ppl did raid with brothers, cousins, close friends that could possibily be considered family, and that this kind of relationship and ambient that exists in small groups is impossible in big ones.

I was one of those guys excited with the change at the beggining of WoD. Going back to "large" groups had some sort of nostalgia to me, taking me back to Burning Crusade and LK times, boy was i wrong.

[Kudos]

Mythic raiding has killed two guilds I've been in as people stop playing and the guilds have had to recruit or merge or die. I'm glad I have a Legion invite as I really didn't want to look for a new raiding guild just yet.