Casualization is the biggest problem wow: True or false

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

It was the same as normal modes at the time. I guess you could argue it should of been upgraded with BRF.

They need to bring back the badge systems so we have a reason to run dungeons once full dungeon geared which was my point. Warlord's cut out a ton of activity and that gave players less reasons to log on as well as being short in the content department. The game could use a difficult increase but warlord's launched with half the content burning crusade and Mist brought and that hurt the game more than difficulty could've.

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It was the same as normal modes at the time. I guess you could argue it should of been upgraded with BRF.



It was a problem it just wasn't the main problem. More content would of appeased raiders only.

It was the main problem mist had a similar model and did find subscriber retention wise compared to warlord's. Garrison is also a really bad idea but hopefully class halls will be better. Warlord's gain more subscribers than mist did and lost a lot more because of lack of content. If mist had gained those subscriber it would be sitting and 10 to 9 million right now. Difficult is an issue but lack of content is a bigger one in my opinion.

I do agree difficult is an issue in this game. It's a way to easy at points but lack of content is more damage.

[OreoLover]

No?

The gear exists only to pass dps checks. What negative is it that the harder content gives better gear to pass those checks?

I don't know maybe their is something I am just not seeing. Why are casuals so concerned where they stand relative to the power of 1% of the population?

I touched upon it: "best gear for all (player-versus-_____) content."

That isn't just "pass dps checks." Persistently, it is anywhere they show up, so: dungeons, world content, PVP. Legion's PVP normalization model looks much closer to fair. Some form of it should apply to all non-raid content, if raiders only want raid gear for raiding.

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It was a problem it just wasn't the main problem. More content would of appeased raiders only.

Only if the content was raid or raid-related content. Someone already brought up the loads of content Mists got in comparison for non-raiders, and you dismissed it. (EDIT: Especially Battlegrounds, Arenas, Scenarios)

[Deleted]

Wouldn't say casualization is a problem. More people being lazy and expecting the most out of the game for nothing is a problem though.

[primalmatter]

They need to bring back the badge systems so we have a reason to run dungeons once full dungeon geared which was my point. Warlord's cut out a ton of activity and that gave players less reasons to log on as well as being short in the content department. The game could use a difficult increase but warlord's launched with half the content burning crusade and Mist brought and that hurt the game more than difficulty could've.

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It was the main problem mist had a similar model and did find subscriber retention wise compared to warlord's. Garrison is also a really bad idea but hopefully class halls will be better. Warlord's gain more subscribers than mist did and lost a lot more because of lack of content. If mist had gained those subscriber it would be sitting and 10 to 9 million right now. Difficult is an issue but lack of content is a bigger one in my opinion.

When you say badge gear do you mean the 2 quests you got a day pre sunwell? Or the awful sunwell system?

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I touched upon it: "best gear for all (player-versus-_____) content."

That isn't just "pass dps checks." Persistently, it is anywhere they show up, so: dungeons, world content, PVP. Legion's PVP normalization model looks much closer to fair. Some form of it should apply to all non-raid content, if raiders only want raid gear for raiding.

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Only if the content was raid or raid-related content. Someone already brought up the loads of content Mists got in comparison for non-raiders, and you dismissed it. (EDIT: Especially Battlegrounds, Arenas, Scenarios)

Scenarios where god awful and actually had a wait time before they over rewarded the hell out of them with valor...

I don't believe content should be giving gear that makes it a utter joke. I don't think heroic dungeons or world content should be dropping mythic raid gear anymore then heroic raids should be...

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

When you say badge gear do you mean the 2 quests you got a day pre sunwell? Or the awful sunwell system?

I am talking about the sun well system but I liked mist version the best. You could only get normal mode gear but still had to run heroic for the mounts, gear, pets, and achievements. You could get some tier and maybe a trinket but not a complete sets.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Depends on the meaning of the word because without actual context it's meaningless, people left because there was no content and in fact small portion of these who left were hardcore players, most of the playerbase is actually casual but then again it really depends what casual and hardcore mean.

If you give both group of players enough content they will play the game, so it's not a casual issue or a hardcore issue it's all about content.

Casual means a lack of time or not trying to burn through content as quickly as possible to me. Taking a more relaxed approach.

[primalmatter]

I am talking about the sun well system but I liked mist version the best. You could only get normal mode gear but still had to run heroic for the mounts, gear, pets, and achievements. You could get some tier and maybe a trinket but not a complete sets.

Pre sunwell I would be fine. Sunwell gear was a mistake.

[OreoLover]

Scenarios where god awful and actually had a wait time before they over rewarded the hell out of them with valor...

I don't believe content should be giving gear that makes it a utter joke. I don't think heroic dungeons or world content should be dropping mythic raid gear anymore then heroic raids should be...

They were fantastic in an "enjoy story in a unique, non-phased world" way. They've used some of that in their new questing, of course, which is better overall.

I don't think that content rewards should make the content an utter joke, either. That's why I want the raid gear to not trivialize everything else (by 100+%). Earlier expansions were fine, where raiders didn't become gods compared to casuals in the world/PVP/dungeons. Having raiders be able to 1-man Heroic dungeons is awful for the game; it makes that content boring when they show up (dungeons), allows ridiculous asshole behavior (practically 1-man dungeon, trolling with world mobs), is unfair for any competitive sense (PVP)...it just doesn't improve the game in any way worth suffering these.

[primalmatter]

Depends on the meaning of the word because without actual context it's meaningless, people left because there was no content and in fact small portion of these who left were hardcore players, most of the playerbase is actually casual but then again it really depends what casual and hardcore mean.

If you give both group of players enough content they will play the game, so it's not a casual issue or a hardcore issue it's all about content.

Casual means just shy of getting caught in their own shirt and falling down the stairs killing themselves.

When I hear casual I hear the countless belated moaning of derpy players unable to complete the simplest of content but so insecure of how people see them in a video game they demand everything they do be made meaningless so they can compete in some vague undefined way involving ilv with the top end players.

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They were fantastic in an "enjoy story in a unique, non-phased world" way. They've used some of that in their new questing, of course, which is better overall.

I don't think that content rewards should make the content an utter joke, either. That's why I want the raid gear to not trivialize everything else (by 100+%). Earlier expansions were fine, where raiders didn't become gods compared to casuals in the world/PVP/dungeons. Having raiders be able to 1-man Heroic dungeons is awful for the game; it makes that content boring when they show up (dungeons), allows ridiculous asshole behavior (practically 1-man dungeon, trolling with world mobs), is unfair for any competitive sense (PVP)...it just doesn't improve the game in any way worth suffering these.

That is a by product of making 4 modes of raiding that all need to make the last obsolete in terms of power gains.

Its a symptom of the disease and I am not sure how to treat it while the infection rages unchecked.

[OreoLover]

That is a by product of making 4 modes of raiding that all need to make the last obsolete in terms of power gains.

Its a symptom of the disease and I am not sure how to treat it while the infection rages unchecked.

I'm not, either, but maybe they could start with something like how PVP gear worked in Warlords.

Maybe remove Heroic, and add a different "gear treadmill" method (more powerful warforged in Normal).

[primalmatter]

I'm not, either, but maybe they could start with something like how PVP gear worked in Warlords.

Maybe remove Heroic, and add a different "gear treadmill" method (more powerful warforged in Normal).

I almost question if they should remove normal... It kind of seems like the left out mode at least to me more seem to just skip to heroic raiding after mythic dungeons

[Siberia]

Casualization isn't the problem. It's not hardcore players that are fleeing the game in masses, it's a combination of both casual AND hardcore players. The issue is the instant gratification, which is not a casual player problem. It's the reward system and how it's tiered with the content. WoD made a lot of mistakes that people have documented across every social media platform. The biggest thing they can change with Legion, is making sure there is enough content to do for all types of players by a ladder system (WotLK/BC style, but with improvements on accessibility). Any player should be able to log in with something to PROGRESS towards. The rate of that progression should be determined by your play time, but not in a gated sense where only hardcore players can achieve things. It's a hard thing to balance, but definitely needs to be addressed or people will again, have nothing to do in between expansions.

[OreoLover]

I almost question if they should remove normal... It kind of seems like the left out mode at least to me more seem to just skip to heroic raiding after mythic dungeons

Yeah, that's actually what I believe. I just think they should still call it Normal, and the top Mythic lol.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Pre sunwell I would be fine. Sunwell gear was a mistake.

I agree they well the original sun well system worked was flawed because of the way the burning crusade was structured but what's wrong with a badge system that gives players an incentive to run older content? Whats wrong with reputations, badges, and world activity giving people gear on par with normal modes. So they have a reason to run older stuff over again.

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Casualization isn't the problem. It's not hardcore players that are fleeing the game in masses, it's a combination of both casual AND hardcore players. The issue is the instant gratification, which is not a casual player problem. It's the reward system and how it's tiered with the content. WoD made a lot of mistakes that people have documented across every social media platform. The biggest thing they can change with Legion, is making sure there is enough content to do for all types of players by a ladder system (WotLK/BC style, but with improvements on accessibility). Any player should be able to log in with something to PROGRESS towards. The rate of that progression should be determined by your play time, but not in a gated sense where only hardcore players can achieve things. It's a hard thing to balance, but definitely needs to be addressed or people will again, have nothing to do in between expansions.

People weren't complaining about the lack of content in Mist until the content drought.

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I almost question if they should remove normal... It kind of seems like the left out mode at least to me more seem to just skip to heroic raiding after mythic dungeons

Blizzard is happy about the multiple raid difficult and they're planning to bring it into legion. I think we should just have flex(but solo queueable),normal, and then mythic.

Really wish flex just gave pets, mounts, and cosmetic rewards. Heroic dungeons, Challenge modes, and an apexis crystal system could be used for getting into to normal raids. Also get rid of mythic dungeons and just make new dungeons that drop better gear instead.

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Scenarios where god awful and actually had a wait time before they over rewarded the hell out of them with valor...

I don't believe content should be giving gear that makes it a utter joke. I don't think heroic dungeons or world content should be dropping mythic raid gear anymore then heroic raids should be...

Who wanted heroic dungeons or world content to drop mythic gear? The point of doing content is to receive rewards or make your character more powerful... We just wanted normal gear to farm because it wasn't to powerful and gave us a reason to run outdated shit.

[judgementofantonidas]

See I don't care for this mentality. Raiding should not be the sole benchmark for character progression. It's been over a decade and the game needs to evolve past that. There's nothing wrong with players earning gear just as powerful as that found in raids through content other than raids. The acquisition of that gear just has to take time and/or resources.

Why? Why should people who put in little or no effort to defeat the most difficult challenges in the game have access to gear equivalent to those who do simply because they were patient and waited for it to drop out of some murloc's ass while farming herbs?

Raiders already have gear (and sometimes currency depending on the xpac/raid) raining down on them.

Do they? They have gear just show up in their mailbox, like what you and those who support equivalent player power outside of raiding suggest you get? No. They earn it. They kill things. They wipe many times while learning to kill things. They organize better, improve their techniques and raid strategies and then go do it some more till they kill things. THEN they get two to five pieces of gear to divide between the twenty to thirty players involved in that one particular kill. What they don't do is wait patiently at the front gate of the raid instance till gear falls out of a tree. They earn it.

Then beyond crafting there should be yet other methods of gear acquisition. We used to get reputations at the start of an xpac which offered gear that tended to be at the ilvl of the initial raid. They took time and dedication to acquire and in many cases were pretty decent gear. Now what if, rep levels were different, what if reps continued to evolve with each content patch. So instead of just grinding to exalted and then done, you grinded to friendly (which would not be as quick to achieve as it is now but should come naturally progressing the zone the rep is tied to) to get a few pieces of initial max level blue gear, players could then continue advancing that rep to Honored for a few epics from that rep equivalent to the initial raid tier. Then a new content patch comes out and that rep gets new (and more difficult) content that gives rep to take you to Revered, with new rewards at the end... and the same happens at the next content patch allowing players to finally reach exalted with rewards equivalent to the final raid tier.

Sure. Reps should have rewards for the effort you put into them. With raid reps earned through.................... wait for it............... raiding. Rewards should also be relevant to the effort you put into achieving those reps. If you can gain rep through picking flowers then the reward should be a flower pot. If you gain rep through killing raid denizens then it should be means to kill them better the next time.

The point is, all progression eggs should not be solely in the raiding basket. Non-raiders need their own progression path that's just as rewarding as raiding but much slower. It shouldn't award the same gear as raids but it should award equivalent/desirable gear. And if raiders feel obligated to engage that content too? Well lucky them they have even more paths of progression than non-raiders do! At least this way, there's multiple ways to get things done. You can do the reps that have gear you want, maybe turn to crafting to fill some other slots, and then fill the rest with max level heroic/mythic dungeon drops. Essentially the non-raider would have a way to gain significant character progression that isn't fast or without investment. Putting raiding on some "this must be the best and only real way to progress" pedestal has always been a mistake IMO.

You are of course entitled to your opinion. Entitled. But no, everything does not need to be equal nor should it be, just because people who cannot, or will not, are wanting for their decision or lack of skill.

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Raid or die is what's destroying the game.

There needs to be more to the game than just raiding. WoD was a perfect example of that. With nothing beyond raiding for endgame advancement of any real significance, look what happened. An unprecedented exodus of subs.

Every expansion there are a flock of chicken little crying that the sky is falling and the subs are hemorrhaging because of X, which is invariably untrue.

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Can you not see the bad situation created by raiders having the by far best gear for all content, and then multiplying it relentlessly?

How exactly is it multiplied relentlessly? Do raiders some how not replace all their end game gear with greens and blues when they start the next expansion?

I am fine accepting a pretty harsh difference already. It need not be furthered by "oh be happy with blues for your hard work, non-raider; I will come and do 10x the effect in your primary content, though! 'Tis my reward!"

Is the 15 minute 5 person dungeon that can be easily soloed by tanks and some dps by the end of every expansion the hard work you are referring to?

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What is a "raid" realm?

servers with the top raid guilds on them. normally full to the brim of players and often with a wait just to get logged in, simply because raiding is THAT popular. as opposed to servers with little or no raiding presence that are pretty much ghost towns once the few wannabe RAID guilds that reside on them meet their wall for the expansion.

[Daffan]

Whaaaaat? "Top players" usually commit to 1 type of content far more than casuals.

My point was that top players can smash through the content in 1 month and have valid complaint about not having any content to do.

Everyone else smashes through it on LFR in 1 day or just skips everything and then still complains, even if they never did it properly (And that really is the right word). Blizzard could never hope to create content fast enough just to be done on LFR in 1 week.

[judgementofantonidas]

"Raid or die" is what nearly killed Cataclysm, as masses of casuals quit the game rather than grind out bullshit overtuned dungeons for the gear to do bullshit overtuned raids. It took until 4.3, when Blizzard gave us dungeons that didn't suck dick, for the subs to quit tanking.

The concept of the raid tier--that of the content that gets annihilated when it's current and ignored when it's not--needs to die. Not developing a raid could pay for at least one quest zone, and you certainly don't do the former when levelling--but you CAN do the latter, on as many characters as you want, without having to set aside time and find specific people also wanting to do that content at the same time.

Raids are archaic.

interesting. my casual raid guild thrived during cataclysm like it has at no other time since wow's inception.

[Deleted]

My point was that top players can smash through the content in 1 month and have valid complaint about not having any content to do.

Everyone else smashes through it on LFR in 1 day or just skips everything and then still complains, even if they never did it properly (And that really is the right word). Blizzard could never hope to create content fast enough just to be done on LFR in 1 week.

Raids have a weekly lockout. If you focus too much on it, or rather, don't give the players any good reason to do anything else, what are they supposed to do with the rest of the time in that week? Most people don't complain about no new raids, most people complain about a general lack of content. World quests, leveling up your artifact and Mythic+ Dungeons will all be things that you can do for quite a while in Legion. Hope it is enough. Mythic+ Dungeons will probably be enough for me personally.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

My point was that top players can smash through the content in 1 month and have valid complaint about not having any content to do.

Everyone else smashes through it on LFR in 1 day or just skips everything and then still complains, even if they never did it properly (And that really is the right word). Blizzard could never hope to create content fast enough just to be done on LFR in 1 week.

Raid finder has a delayed release and people do other content beside raiding. I doubt blizzard would waste effort creating content that nobody played.

[Deleted]

I voted false but it's a false debate, it's not about HC vs casual IMO.

What made WoW great is seeing a lore-rich game with an already solid playerbase with Warcraft 3 take shape in a casual MMORPG. Yes, casuals could look up to the hardcore, and that was nice. I drooled when I saw the elite on my realm decked out in T2 and those high warlords.

But there are still hardcore players today, even if their numbers are dwindling. Does the playerbase still look up to them? Sure, but do it still act on their admiration? How could it do so, when it has gotten older? Some guys I was raiding Ulduar with are now married with two kids for crying out loud. What's going to take precendence, their kids, or a game? And even if they're playing, they can be ventilated across all other Blizzard IPs.

Wow reached it's peak, it was good while it lasted, and it's still a great game. If we have to make parallel with significant others, I doubt the flame of love is as intense after 10 years of marriage, and that's assuming it didn't end up in a divorce. Does that mean couples stopped loving each other? No, and the same can be said for the game. And even more so for StarCraft which is an elite game. Some games are not supposed to have that many players for a sustained period of time.