Upcoming talent change gutting

[Dhrizzle]

i wonder why people focus so much only on raid when it will have equaly crushing and disaster effect for climbing up mythic + dungeons levels -_-

They could solve this by having Mythic bosses drop a large enough sum of gold to dwarf the item cost.

[Jagorath]

Thankfully people on beta forums are mostly shitting on this change, so maybe they will revert it or find some better solution for this non-existing problem, heh.

[Tharkkun]

That tome cost is totally retarded. At raid opening the cost will be ludicrously high. What the hell are they thinking?

I would say the cost is so high to achieve exactly what Blizzard wants. People to stop changing their talents on every fight, trash pack, etc. The writing is on the wall.

[Adramalech]

Thankfully people on beta forums are mostly shitting on this change, so maybe they will revert it or find some better solution for this non-existing problem, heh.

To be fair, they can be pretty stubborn on a change despite the overwhelming negative feedback. Just look at the whole flying on Draenor thing: even though they eventually caved, they still gave us a final "fuck you" by completely changing how you obtain flight training into a multi stage achievement, and carrying on with that model for Legion. Note that I don't have anything against the Pathfinder method, I actually enjoy it (minus the fact that they are once again delaying when we can obtain it, but that's a topic for another time), but the way it was introduced felt exactly like this change: they give us what we want, but they screw with something to do so.

[Deleted]

Can anyone think of a idea that is even worse then this?

Let's assume the legion raid will be the same as HFC now and we play a arcane mage.

assault: super nova (Adds die to fast)
reaver: Unstable magic
kormrok: Super nova (hands)
council: Unstbale magic
killrog: Super nova (in realm)
gorefiend: Unstable magic
iskar: super nova (Adds)
zakuun: unstable magic
socrethar: super nova (adds)
Velhari: unstable magic
Xhulhorac: super nova (Adds)
mannoroth: super nova (yes no change )
archimonde: unstable magic

(not about the smartest choice of talent but just to give a idea)

So this will means either buying 11 wartomes. Which costs 110 pigments for 1 tome to make. Assuming we will have the same prices as legion this will cost 3300 gold every raid day. Or you can take 1 mage (portal to rested place) and 1 warlock (summoning back to raid) every single boss fight. Wich will greatly reduce the speed of raiding and make it no fun anymore.

And this is when you can kill the bosses every time in 1 pull. Not when you pull a boss then you see that you need more aoe or single target and switch for that talent after a wipe.

I gladly use the current system where i have to push 1 bottun with "yes i want to change" instead of going to a rested place every time between a boss pull or buy a raid wide item.

[Atherius]

Are they really that stupid? The option to change talents between bosses is one of the best ways to counter the "cookie-cutter" builds...

[Uko]

Someone posted it on the beta forums but they should make it instead of talents specs need to be in a town/rested area or use those tomes to change and talents go back to being done on the fly.

I had to agree when I saw it since I can go from a ranged hunter to a melee hunter easier than I can swap out barrage for volley two aoe talents in the same tier.

[Deleted]

Let's be honest. One of the three specs will do higher AoE DPS than the others. It might very well be possible that you'll be /forced/ to play destruction or demonology for AoE fights, if you want to play optimally. (like it was in WoD)

So it might not have anything to do with talent swapping at all.

There's a big difference between one specialisation being better at something than the others - and in fact Blizzard themselves call that a problem, they call it "players feeling compelled to play in a way they might not enjoy" and a talent system that clearly has players switching talents around routinely designed at it's heart suddenly being made a total pain in the ass with a completely unnecessary additional tax on raiding (and Mythic+) but which is ignorable everywhere else

[Grimreaper]

I would say the cost is so high to achieve exactly what Blizzard wants. People to stop changing their talents on every fight, trash pack, etc. The writing is on the wall.

Not going to happen, only people who clearly dont give a shit about progression or their team will avoid changing talents in every raid. It's really no different than refusing to enchant/gem your gear or refuse using flasks and pots.

Besides, blizzard specificaly and intentionally designed the current talent trees around players being able to swap talents around whenever and wherever they want to. They WANT us to be able to swap talents all the time. Thats why this design change is so stupid.

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The tome is cheap - only 10 rare pigments (I assume the 10 are rare). No other special ingredients at all. Assuming it's similar to WoD regarding rare pigment generation, it's around 1 darkmoon card. Any guild worth its salt will have multiple stacks of this in the raid utils tab. All the crying, for nothing.

How about mythic 5mans? I'm certainly not worried about swapping talents during raids, it's everything else that gets fucked up in the process.

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There's a big difference between one specialisation being better at something than the others - and in fact Blizzard themselves call that a problem, they call it "players feeling compelled to play in a way they might not enjoy" and a talent system that clearly has players switching talents around routinely designed at it's heart suddenly being made a total pain in the ass with a completely unnecessary additional tax on raiding (and Mythic+) but which is ignorable everywhere else

I dont give a shit what spec or talents i'm playing with, all i care about is playing my character to it's fullest potential on any given encounter. Just like any proper raider will.

[Riistov]

not many of them played during Vanilla/TBC/WoTLK and so on.. Back then you always had to go back to a major city to do a talent reset and respec..

I played back then.

This is still a stupid change.

[clevin]

I would say the cost is so high to achieve exactly what Blizzard wants. People to stop changing their talents on every fight, trash pack, etc. The writing is on the wall.

If they don't want people to swap individual talents then the should change how talents work. What they're doing i saying "here, we've created a design so that you can feel swap individual talents without respeccing... NO YOU CAN'T, you have to be in a rested area or have this thing!" The restriction works directly against the design. That's inane.

[Cooper]

People keep claiming Blizzard changed the talent system from the Vanilla version so that people could swap talents so they could always have the best talent for the moment.

That's simply not true. Blizzard altered the talent system because people were just copying cookie cutter builds, as well as because a lot of the talent choices just didn't seem meaningful (+1% to X) but seemed mandatory. The whole point of the new system was to fix those issues, and being able to swap talents based on the encounter was a secondary effect.

"By trimming down the talent trees, the development team intends to create a system in which there are no mandatory talents or cookie cutter specs."

-http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/203785-world-of-warcraft-preview-panel-mists-of-pandaria/

So this idea that Blizzard intended for people to always use the best talents for a particular encounter (ie, they intended for mandatory cookie cutter specs for an encounter) is false.

[Varaben]

I don't see the problem with this at all.
I mean, it's another step to making inscription a useful profession. That's far from a bad thing, and it's not as if no one in your raid group, or even any pug will have one, so it's not as big of a fuss as you're making it out to be.

The thing is that talents in Legion are often very much AOE vs. single target. So it makes sense to swap talents a lot, even between individual pulls in dungeons/raids. It won't really be a big deal either way, but having the talents so specific was kind of cool IMO. It adds a layer of skill, and this change takes that away.

[Mafic]

People keep claiming Blizzard changed the talent system from the Vanilla version so that people could swap talents so they could always have the best talent for the moment.

That's simply not true. Blizzard altered the talent system because people were just copying cookie cutter builds, as well as because a lot of the talent choices just didn't seem meaningful (+1% to X) but seemed mandatory. The whole point of the new system was to fix those issues, and being able to swap talents based on the encounter was a secondary effect.

It isn't false.


-http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/203785-world-of-warcraft-preview-panel-mists-of-pandaria/

So this idea that Blizzard intended for people to always use the best talents for a particular encounter (ie, they intended for mandatory cookie cutter specs for an encounter) is false.

Early in the Legion alpha they said the reason why they put single target talents on the same row as AoE talents was that players would have the choice to swap to whatever you want when necessary. Now this recent change in the Legion beta simply upends their original design intention with the Legion alpha.

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The thing is that talents in Legion are often very much AOE vs. single target. So it makes sense to swap talents a lot, even between individual pulls in dungeons/raids. It won't really be a big deal either way, but having the talents so specific was kind of cool IMO. It adds a layer of skill, and this change takes that away.

Blizz explicitly said that was the design intention because they didn't want everyone to have all the AoE and single talent at the same time or else no one would change talents ever.

[Cooper]

Early in the Legion alpha they said the reason why they put single target talents on the same row as AoE talents was that players would have the choice to swap to whatever you want when necessary. Now this recent change in the Legion beta simply upends their original design intention with the Legion alpha.

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Blizz explicitly said that was the design intention because they didn't want everyone to have all the AoE and single talent at the same time or else no one would change talents ever.

Do you have a source for these claims?

[Mazaxist]

weird change, can i please keep my dual spec over this nonsense? at least i could do it anywhere AND for free. weird.

[Nayami]

I am really going to hate this change :/

I really like swapping talents for different situations / bosses. Hope that they'll change their minds.

[Wow]

Do you have a source for these claims?

Talents
Currently there are a lot of rows that offer you three similar options to choose from, making it feel like it doesn't matter what you pick. This is going away by moving them into different rows, so you could take multiple mobility talents or multiple AoE healing talents. Really hardcore players may change their talents from encounter to encounter to get different capabilities.
There will be more impactful talents. Rogues have five rows with straight throughput improvements. Every spec has four or five rows of straight throughput improvements.

The additional spec specific talents help class fantasy and help to make them feel more impactful. In Legion around 2/3rd of the talents are spec specific.

Some talent rows now have multiple types of talents rather than all of them being the same. For example, a row could have a new ability, proc, or passive rather than three new abilities. This lets you control how complex or simple your gameplay is. Fury is a good example, as the core rotation with no talents is very simple, but there are a ton of options for added engagement through talents. You can take five additional active abilities you would use in your rotation (not long cooldowns).

The team will try to address the need to switch specs per encounter with talent choices.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...ter-Discussion

The entire talent system was designed around being able to adapt our base spec to certain situations. Removing that freedom simply goes against the game systems already developed and creates unneeded roadblocks and annoyances.


Bottom line this restriction only works with a vanilla-cata talent tree mop-wod weren't designed for that and legion took it a step farther and made even more talent swapping on the fly needed. They can do this kind of design if they 100% redo the talent trees which we all know isn't happening which means this change needs to go.

You can't design something to be changed all the time and then just remove that ability and think it's going to workout. I don't know what full retard moment they had that made them even think this up. The only thing I can think of is all this whining about legacy servers and they forgot what they already designed lol.

[Cooper]

Talents
Currently there are a lot of rows that offer you three similar options to choose from, making it feel like it doesn't matter what you pick. This is going away by moving them into different rows, so you could take multiple mobility talents or multiple AoE healing talents. Really hardcore players may change their talents from encounter to encounter to get different capabilities.
There will be more impactful talents. Rogues have five rows with straight throughput improvements. Every spec has four or five rows of straight throughput improvements.

The additional spec specific talents help class fantasy and help to make them feel more impactful. In Legion around 2/3rd of the talents are spec specific.

Some talent rows now have multiple types of talents rather than all of them being the same. For example, a row could have a new ability, proc, or passive rather than three new abilities. This lets you control how complex or simple your gameplay is. Fury is a good example, as the core rotation with no talents is very simple, but there are a ton of options for added engagement through talents. You can take five additional active abilities you would use in your rotation (not long cooldowns).

The team will try to address the need to switch specs per encounter with talent choices.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...ter-Discussion

The entire talent system was designed around being able to adapt our base spec to certain situations. Removing that freedom simply goes against the game systems already developed and creates unneeded roadblocks and annoyances.


Bottom line this restriction only works with a vanilla-cata talent tree mop-wod weren't designed for that and legion took it a step farther and made even more talent swapping on the fly needed. They can do this kind of design if they 100% redo the talent trees which we all know isn't happening which means this change needs to go.

You can't design something to be changed all the time and then just remove that ability and think it's going to workout. I don't know what full retard moment they had that made them even think this up. The only thing I can think of is all this whining about legacy servers and they forgot what they already designed lol.

So no, they didn't actually say what was claimed they said, at least not in that quote. You're just adding what you want to hear to what they actually said. They didn't say it was designed to be changed all the time, only that "really hardcore players may(emphasis mine) change their talents from encounter to encounter to get different capabilities."

They did not design it to be changed all the time, just that the option was there. Which is exactly what they have been saying since Mists of Pandaria.

The reason they changed it from "this tier is all about X" is stated right there in your quote: "Currently there are a lot of rows that offer you three similar options to choose from, making it feel like it doesn't matter what you pick." It has ZERO to do with "forcing people to change talents."

[Wow]

"The team will try to address the need to switch specs per encounter with talent choices."

Switching talents per encounter rather than specs sure sounds like switch talents freely was the design..